KS energy battery - strange "sleep mode" after 8 weeks of no use (1 Viewer)

[Pebble99]

I have not used our van for about 2 months and since I knew that the van would be parked up for a few months I left our KS energy underseat battery at 72% SOC. Yesterday when I went into the van to check something, I noticed that the Schaudt overhead panel display was not showing any leisure battery voltage at all, whereas the vehicle battery was fine. I then immediately checked the KS energy status using the app and could not even connect as the battery was not showing up on the bluetooth search. I had previously disconnected the fuse for our Votronic solar regulator so there was no charge getting to the KS energy whilst laid up. I then re inserted the fuse in order to charge the battery with solar (I was thinking at that point the battery was completely flat!) and was about to also connect to EHU. At that point I was then able to connect to the battery via bluetooth and also the Schaudt display was now showing a healthy leisure battery voltage. It seems that the KS energy had gone into some sort of "sleep mode" as opposed to standby mode due to non use, and was woken up by the charge from the solar regulator? I don't think it's due to a faulty bluetooth module like another other thread has reported since the Schaudt display was also not showing any voltage prior to re connecting the solar regulator and charging it. The battery is showing 72% SOC and 13.2v which is as expected so obviously the battery was not flat as I first thought.

Before I go back to KS energy I wanted to know whether anyone else has experience this?

 

[davieboy]

Work offshore so mine does the same after 4 weeks away, just needs a charge going on to wake it up, sure I've read another thread on here about this aswell

 

[Pebble99]

Work offshore so mine does the same after 4 weeks away, just needs a charge going on to wake it up, sure I've read another thread on here about this aswell

Do you have the KS Energy under seat battery aswell? I did search for other threads but couldn't find anything so will try again.

 

[Tombola]

Possibly makes some sense to completely isolate any draw at all.
As long as it Wakes with a pulse of current should be reet

 

[funflair]

Pebble99 are you saying that you leave the panel switched on so drawing from the battery but remove the solar fuse so no charge going in? I know if I did this in our van the lithium would be flat in less than 2 months.

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[eurajohn]

When I had similar problem with my KS under seat I had to flash 12 volt from another battery to wake it up, neither solar (420w and Victron mppt) or the 230 volt Victron charger worked.

 

[Pebble99]

Pebble99 are you saying that you leave the panel switched on so drawing from the battery but remove the solar fuse so no charge going in? I know if I did this in our van the lithium would be flat in less than 2 months.

Panel was switched off. The battery charge status is now ok once it "woke-up". I am trying to figure out whether this is normal or whether it is a warranty claim. I have contacted KS Energy and await a response.

 

[Pebble99]

When I had similar problem with my KS under seat I had to flash 12 volt from another battery to wake it up, neither solar (420w and Victron mppt) or the 230 volt Victron charger worked.

Interesting. Did you contact KS Energy at the time

 

[Ranger]

KS batteries do go to sleep if no activity for a while. They just need something switching on to wake them up, on our if we switch on the lights (LED) it is not enough draw to wake them up but a quick prod on the electric step button and it all springs into life again.

 

[eurajohn]

Interesting. Did you contact KS Energy at the time

Yes, bit inconclusive really and I didn't bother to chase it as it has worked faultlessly since.

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[Guigsy]

The BMS and the Bluetooth do have a small current draw when they're on. It's tiny, but it adds up over weeks. Going into deep sleep is probably a good feature, as long as you've got a way of waking it up again.

 

[Pebble99]

KS Energy have confirmed that it is normal behaviour.."the app requires a voltage to remain connected. If this drops out due to voltage dropping, the BMS will switch the battery into Hibernation mode and the only way to wake it up, is to apply a voltage charger to 14.4volts." They also recommend leaving the battery at 100% SOC when not in use which is contrary to other manufacturers. Thanks for all your replies on this.

 

[Guigsy]

KS Energy have confirmed that it is normal behaviour.."the app requires a voltage to remain connected. If this drops out due to voltage dropping, the BMS will switch the battery into Hibernation mode and the only way to wake it up, is to apply a voltage charger to 14.4volts." They also recommend leaving the battery at 100% SOC when not in use which is contrary to other manufacturers. Thanks for all your replies on this.

Compared to other types of Lithium Ion battery, I believe that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries care much less about storage charge. Half charged might be technically optimal, but the difference if makes is pretty marginal. If you leave it fully charged, it's less likely it'll get drained to a very low charge level in storage, which is potentially more damaging overall (although even then, the BMS should prevent complete discharge).

 

[Pausim]

I must make a note never to buy a KS battery. A sleep/hibernation mode could be disastrous if you have equipment that may need power. For instance my Efoy fuel cell senses freezing conditions and powers itself up if it gets too cold, for that it needs a 12V supply. KS should be giving clear warnings about this sleep/hibernation mode because it is potentially dangerous for some applications.

 

[Pebble99]

I must make a note never to buy a KS battery. A sleep/hibernation mode could be disastrous if you have equipment that may need power. For instance my Efoy fuel cell senses freezing conditions and powers itself up if it gets too cold, for that it needs a 12V supply. KS should be giving clear warnings about this sleep/hibernation mode because it is potentially dangerous for some applications.

I believe that it would not go into hibernation mode if there was a draw on the battery like your fuel cells but worth checking.

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[Langtoftlad]

I must make a note never to buy a KS battery.

Is the KS brand the only lithium battery that does this?

 

[Gromett]

I believe that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries care much less about storage charge.

Care much less or don't care at all? If the former how much damage is done by storing at 100%?

I ask because I have not heard this before. I personally wouldn't even charge to 100% on a LiFePO4 cell to increase lifespan.

My understanding I think is that storing at 50% is a reasonable recommendation. Only store at 100% if you are leaving it for years so that it never fully discharges. Allow for 2% internal discharge per month.

 

[Langtoftlad]

I personally wouldn't even charge to 100% on a LiFePO4 cell to increase lifespan.

Why not?
Not directly relevant as I'm curious about my newly acquired portable power pack and it's my first experience of LifePO4.
The Anker quickly charges to 80% in a matter of minutes, then has a slower charge to get to 100% then switches off it's internal charger.
Are you suggesting to compromise the available capacity with prolonging the battery life?
What level would you charge to?
The Anker specs are 3000 charge cycles backed up with a 5 year warranty.
[I know Anker aren't your favourite brand after the Eufy scandal but if you substitute "Ecoflow"...]

 

[Pausim]

I believe that it would not go into hibernation mode if there was a draw on the battery like your fuel cells but worth checking.

It would only make a significant draw if it needed to operate and not something I would want to risk. My Relion does not do this.

 

[Tombola]

I have a 100ah Lithium in the garage that I stored at 60% in October last year, shows 57% now, That I should really sell as I only bought it to test.

dunno if heat makes a difference

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[Guigsy]

I have a 100ah Lithium in the garage that I stored at 60% in October last year, shows 57% now, That I should really sell as I only bought it to test.

dunno if heat makes a difference

I suspect it's not completely accurate. Some charge will have leeched away, but the BMS won't have seen it though it's built in shunt, so won't have counted it. I suspect that if you charged it, it would take a bit more than the 43% suggested.

Still gives you an idea how little the internal electronics requires though. Impressive.

 

[Pausim]

Is the KS brand the only lithium battery that does this?

I don’t know but I suspect most manufacturers would avoid it. Not a function that would suit all applications and not needed on a battery with such low self discharge. It suggests to me that their BMS is power hungry and needs shutting down.

 

[Gromett]

Why not?
Not directly relevant as I'm curious about my newly acquired portable power pack and it's my first experience of LifePO4.
The Anker quickly charges to 80% in a matter of minutes, then has a slower charge to get to 100% then switches off it's internal charger.
Are you suggesting to compromise the available capacity with prolonging the battery life?
What level would you charge to?
The Anker specs are 3000 charge cycles backed up with a 5 year warranty.
[I know Anker aren't your favourite brand after the Eufy scandal but if you substitute "Ecoflow"...]

Why not charge to 100% all the time? Lifespan basically.
I don't have the figures to hand. But from memory, you get around 2-3,000 cycles at 100% charging with a LifePO4 chemistry. This rises to around 10,000 cycles if you reduce the maximum charge to 90%.
I think charging to 90% and not discharging below 10% massively increases lifespan and means you will pretty much never have to replace it.

Wissel is more up to date on this stuff than me as I stopped investigating a few years ago then covid hit and now my plans have changed. So I haven't kept up to date and some of the stuff I learned has now faded from memory. The old use it or lose it thing.

 

[Pebble99]

Both Neil and Rob from KS Energy have recommended charging to 100% if the van is to be left for a long period of time. At the moment I am not sure what advice to follow as I don't want to void their warranty

"It is recommended, to ensure the battery is fully charged to 14.4volts if the van is not going to be used for a Long period of time"

 

[Gromett]

Both Neil and Rob from KS Energy have recommended charging to 100% if the van is to be left for a long period of time. At the moment I am not sure what advice to follow as I don't want to void their warranty

"It is recommended, to ensure the battery is fully charged to 14.4volts if the van is not going to be used for a Long period of time"

The only time to charge to 100% in my opinion is when the self discharge could cause the battery to lose all its charge over the period the van is being left unattended.
Charging to 100% literally gives you more time to prevent the risk of self discharge down to 0%. So unless you are leaving it for a seriously long time then 100% would not be my choice personally.
I think they may be trying to prevent warrant calls for discharges to 0% and being left at 0% which is very damaging. Whereas all charging to 100% does is lower the lifespan a bit.

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[Langtoftlad]

lower the lifespan a bit.

Is this a real life worry?
Specified 3000 cycles*
In the unlikely event of fully cycling once a day, that's a promised lifespan of over eight years, sixteen of cycling every other day...

Or am I misunderstanding, or have my arithmetic wrong?

*am I right in thinking a top up, say 60% to 100% is not a fully cycle?

 

[Gromett]

Is this a real life worry?
Specified 3000 cycles*
In the unlikely event of fully cycling once a day, that's a promised lifespan of over eight years, sixteen of cycling every other day...

Or am I misunderstanding, or have my arithmetic wrong?

*am I right in thinking a top up, say 60% to 100% is not a fully cycle?

Real life worry? Not a worry so much. But if you can make something last 3 times as long with minimal cost for the most part why not?
My opinion may be skewed by being a fulltimer for so long.
3000 / 365 = 8 years. But I would debate that figure as a fulltimer will deeply discharge a lot more.
9000 / 365 = 24 years. But even 50% improvement in cycles would be 12 years.

60 - 100% is not a full cycle as I understand it.

worth noting that the 3000 lifespan is not till it is dead but till it is down to 80% capacity. So for a 100Ah battery after 3,000 cycles it would still be an 80Ah battery. Unlike lead acid they don't die badly.

 

[peterc10]

KS do warn about what they call "auto hibernation". It turns off the internal bluetooth and puts the BMS into standby mode if there is no draw or charge from or to the battery after several weeks. All it needs is to apply a charge or discharge and it will wake up immediately. Sp switch a light on and off and OK for another few weeks.

 

[Tombola]

Both Neil and Rob from KS Energy have recommended charging to 100% if the van is to be left for a long period of time. At the moment I am not sure what advice to follow as I don't want to void their warranty

"It is recommended, to ensure the battery is fully charged to 14.4volts if the van is not going to be used for a Long period of time"

they would wouldn't they, their business is selling batteries

 

[Pausim]

KS do warn about what they call "auto hibernation". It turns off the internal bluetooth and puts the BMS into standby mode if there is no draw or charge from or to the battery after several weeks. All it needs is to apply a charge or discharge and it will wake up immediately. Sp switch a light on and off and OK for another few weeks.

I can understand turning the bluetooth off but killing the supply is another matter. In the middle of winter when the temperature drops below zero I am not there to turn lights on and off, I want the system to be live at all times. That is what I expect a battery to do. Fortunately there are other manufacturers.

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