help please regarding charging with just fitted 12 12 30 btb victron

[1967bowesj]

I will turn it off and start the engine today after unplugging the uhu and see what it does and report back here, but here in the dordogne I have other pressing issues like coffee or a beer and what to have for lunch

If you can find the fuse that is in the feed wires to b2b you can pull that, then you just monitor any other wires dont get to hot. Should only be an issue if lithium is low as it will suck as much as it can when engine running.

 

[Hoovie]

If you can find the fuse that is in the feed wires to b2b you can pull that, then you just monitor any other wires dont get to hot. Should only be an issue if lithium is low as it will suck as much as it can when engine running.

A Lithium battery will suck as much as it can whether it is low or nearly full. The difference between the two is not the amount of power/current that it draws but how long it does it.

 

[1967bowesj]

A Lithium battery will suck as much as it can whether it is low or nearly full. The difference between the two is not the amount of power/current that it draws but how long it does it.

Yeah, should have worded that better.

 

[TimPS]

Have you got a smart alternator in your van. in order to activate the victron b2b and to get it charging my (lithium) battery it has to be set to start charging at around 12V (I think) as the smart alternator puts out a very low voltage. This is a layman's poor explanation: a very clever man sorted it for me after having real problems with my previous b2b charger which simply didnt work with a smart alternator even though it was supposed to

 

[Lenny HB]

Have you got a smart alternator in your van. in order to activate the victron b2b and to get it charging my (lithium) battery it has to be set to start charging at around 12V (I think) as the smart alternator puts out a very low voltage. This is a layman's poor explanation: a very clever man sorted it for me after having real problems with my previous b2b charger which simply didnt work with a smart alternator even though it was supposed to

You really don't want to use voltage sensing in Motorhome particularly with a smart alternator. So much safer to switch it via the D+.

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[roadwarrior]

If you can find the fuse that is in the feed wires to b2b you can pull that, then you just monitor any other wires dont get to hot. Should only be an issue if lithium is low as it will suck as much as it can when engine running.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

I had the same problem as the smart alternator wiring trigger was too unstable to operate the B2B and let the fridge slowly drain the batteries.
Once wired as an ignition trigger it works perfectly.

 

[roadwarrior]

I have no idea if if its voltage sensing or whatever, not my area sadly. Anyway, are you saying that missing 2 amps is going back to.my starter battery ? So my aux batteries are now charging my starter battery ?
Tbo i don't care where its going as long the aux battery is being charged properly. The answer is to get him.back and do it right i know. So what do I tell to do ?
..

 

[Pausim]

So what do I tell to do ?

That depends partly on how he wired it in the first place. I suggest you first ask him if it has been set up for D+ operation and if he has disabled the original split charge relay. If he has done neither the next question might be to ask how is it operating and has he allowed for the smart alternator outputting anything between 12V and 15V.

 

[roadwarrior]

I AM PRETTY SURE it is not wired d+, i remember he explained it would start charging after a few seconds after i start the engine - which to be fair it does, and turns off after the engine stops. That bit works fine as i have. watched it on the victron app. I am also pretty sure he has forgotting to disable the split charger. Unfortunately i dont know how to disable it myself. Or frankly where to start looking, is there a fuse i could pull somewhere. it has 2016 sergent electrics. so EC 500, EC 480,EC 300 PANEL, AND EM45.

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[Pausim]

I AM PRETTY SURE it is not wired d+, i remember he explained it would start charging after a few seconds after i start the engine - which to be fair it does, and turns off after the engine stops. That bit works fine as i have. watched it on the victron app. I am also pretty sure he has forgotting to disable the split charger. Unfortunately i dont know how to disable it myself. Or frankly where to start looking, is there a fuse i could pull somewhere. it has 2016 sergent electrics. so EC 500, EC 480,EC 300 PANEL, AND EM45.

Sorry no idea about Sargent electrics, only done it on EBL and CBE.

 

[EssexBoy]

You really don't want to use voltage sensing in Motorhome particularly with a smart alternator. So much safer to switch it via the D+.

On the Victron B2B, do you mean adding the D+ to L connector?

and then do you turn off "Engine shutdown detection" or leave it on? If you turn it off, the manual suggests the B2B considers the engine running all the time, which would seem to be a recipe for a flat starter battery?

There doesn't seem to be a setting that says "charge only when D+ is on, and turn off otherwise"

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

 

[MichaelT]

On the Victron B2B, do you mean adding the D+ to L connector?
View attachment 1068257
and then do you turn off "Engine shutdown detection" or leave it on? If you turn it off, the manual suggests the B2B considers the engine running all the time, which would seem to be a recipe for a flat starter battery?

There doesn't seem to be a setting that says "charge only when D+ is on, and turn off otherwise"

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Turn it off, the B2B then only charges when.it senses the D+ signal.

 

[Pausim]

The manual is badly written, or possibly poorly translated. I found the Offgrid Power Solutions video helpful in explaining that shutdown detection needs to be switched off.

 

[roadwarrior]

Erm gents.. is it possible that might apply to me ? my double charging might be down to not turning off engine sensing ?

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[roadwarrior]

Ok just tried turning off battery sensing and started the engine after disconnecting ehu. Was much the same but drained slightly less about 1 amp, what really surprised me was that it still turned itself off when I stopped the engine.

 

[roadwarrior]

Is it possible he has wired up D+ AND left the split charger relay connected?

 

[Lenny HB]

On the Victron B2B, do you mean adding the D+ to L connector?

D+ is normally a positive signal so you connect it to H.
And yes turn off shutdown detection.

 

[rod_vw]

Were you left with the Victron manual? I am guessing that you have a Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated and if so here is a link to the manual.

 

[Cush]

Perhaps not read all the previous posts careful enough and could be way off here so feel free to or ignore, but my experience of the Sargent charging on earlier PSUs is that the relay is near the vehicle battery. Any little black box relays near there. If so, it will be activated by d+, also have an “earth” plus a live in and out. Just a thought.

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[Ian_H]

I AM PRETTY SURE it is not wired d+, i remember he explained it would start charging after a few seconds after i start the engine - which to be fair it does, and turns off after the engine stops. That bit works fine as i have. watched it on the victron app. I am also pretty sure he has forgotting to disable the split charger. Unfortunately i dont know how to disable it myself. Or frankly where to start looking, is there a fuse i could pull somewhere. it has 2016 sergent electrics. so EC 500, EC 480,EC 300 PANEL, AND EM45.

If you can post a pic of your 12V fuses (in the control panel?) we might be able to identify one to pull to stop the split charge relay working.

 

[roadwarrior]

Do you mean my ec500 fuse box or the the control panel ?

 

[Ian_H]

Do you mean my ec500 fuse box or the the control panel ?

Both cos I got confused on exactly what you have! Ideally lift up the cover on the fuse box.

 

[roadwarrior]

I very much doubt the control panel can do anthing as all power is cut to the control panel and all aux based power the moment the engine starts on all uk vehicles as a uk spec thing.

 

[Pausim]

I very much doubt the control panel can do anthing as all power is cut to the control panel and all aux based power the moment the engine starts on all uk vehicles as a uk spec thing.

Are they still doing that? Why?

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[roadwarrior]

No idea, it's a pain i agree and inconvenient for sure, I'm guessing yours isn't uk spec. I have wondered how hard it would be to make it live during travel, but it would create other problems im.sure.

 

[autorouter]

Are they still doing that? Why?

If you regard a motorhome as a complete vehicle, then all the items in it need to be tested for compatibility while driving, so that for example some spurious radio signal doesn't interfere with critical vehicle systems. This testing costs time and money. European manufacturers do this testing.

UK manufacturers use the loophole that a motorhome is like a caravan on the back of a van. If you cut off all power to the caravan, no need to test it while driving. So there is a relay powered by the ignition or D+ that cuts off the power when the engine is running. If you disable this relay, then in theory you need to do all the compatibility tests yourself, and have the vehicle certified. But as we know, relays can fail for all kinds of unknown reasons, and you might not notice for ages...

 

[Hoovie]

Perhaps not read all the previous posts careful enough and could be way off here so feel free to or ignore, but my experience of the Sargent charging on earlier PSUs is that the relay is near the vehicle battery. Any little black box relays near there. If so, it will be activated by d+, also have an “earth” plus a live in and out. Just a thought.

That will not be the case here. That would have been the situation on a late 1990s/early 2000 install.

I very much doubt the control panel can do anthing as all power is cut to the control panel and all aux based power the moment the engine starts on all uk vehicles as a uk spec thing.

There are various ways you can deal with disabling the internal Split-Charger in your Sargent unit. Which way is best depends on how you would like the system to work generally.
Sargent actually have some documentation on their website on how to disable the split-charge when installing a separate B2B and some options there.
My own usual preference - which is not documented by them is to disconnect the D+ signal before it gets to the Sargent EC Unit - this will have a double whammy of disabling the Split-charge AND stopping the hab electrics from turning off (as they don't know the engine is running). Personally I don't like how the electrics get turned off, so using this method works well for me and I keep my hab electrics operational. Only thing I have to remember is to turn off the water pump otherwise if not full, the level sensor may get activated as the water sloshes around and you get an water empty alarm.

I actually don't remove the D+ wire but just put a switch in-line with it, so I can - if I should so want to (maybe failed B2B so need a temp workround?) - reinstate it very easily. I did this in my own motorhome nearly 5 years ago and haven't yet had a reason to turn the switch on, so maybe a bit of a pointless thing to fit?

What you can do to check the situation is pull the vehicle battery fuse from the Sargent EC unit (probably a 20A fuse in position 1 or 2) and see if you get the current drain back.
I am not convinced this is the root of your problem, but pull the fuse and you are eliminating a feedback from the Sargent unit to vehicle battery so you will be able to do some additional checking

Word of warning/caution if disconnecting the D+ into the Sargent unit - and this would be relevant to anyone with a Sargent setup .... Check before and after if there is any change in the behaviour and operation of an Electric Step and the 12V operation of a 3-way fridge. If you interrupt the D+ signal to the Fridge circuit, it may not work on 12V anymore; If you interrupt the D+ for the step circuit, it may not auto-retract the step or sound a warning buzzer if out.
The EM45 contains the circuitry for those, so if you disconnect by the EC and not by the EM, the step and fridge should carry on as usual, but vans with a sargent and NO EM unit could vary.
So if you are getting someone in to disable the Sargent split-charge, test to MAKE SURE they have not disabled other key functions in the process!
Oh, and a little 'gotcha' which possibly may have caught your man out if he didn't check things afterwards ..... on the EM unit there is probably a 20A fuse that is labeled 'split-charge' or somesuch? Pulling that fuse will NOT disable the sargent split-charge function in my experience but it is easy to assume it would

 

[roadwarrior]

Yes hoodie I did find the 20amp fuse on the em.unit unit, which, annoyingly is inside my side seat and of course buried in moho stuff but it had the effect of killing all my aux power so thats no good. I am.beginning to realise this is a minefield and all I asked is for it to work.

 

[roadwarrior]

This is a bit of a saga now so to remind folk, the sequence of events are this, my 2 lead acid batteries died over winter as someone turned off the garage wall socket and I thought it was charging. I decided to buy a couple nano gel batteries as advised from alpha batteries. I was then advised elsewhere that the smart alternator would kill the new batteries as gel are more sensitive. So I ended up employing calibre to fit and supply a b2b charger. Which he did a day before we set off to france. I admit I had no idea of the minefield possibilities and so never gave it a thought and busied myself with usual circus of trying to remember everything and not leave anything vital behind. It was while chugging down the m40 that I discovered I was running at minus 2-3 amps and my full charge was dwindling. And dropped to 90 %charge on the aux batteries. This is topped back up when I stop. Its been suggested its going back into the starter battery. Is that actually bad as a concept? I know its not right, but will It be damaging anthing ?

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