Greater Manchester clean air plan targets motor homes

[Redken]

https://cleanairgm.com/
Please read this and record your objections.
One motorhome dealer has already said that he is going to move out of the area.
Going away out of the area you will be charged.
Coming home you will be charged.
Not sure about passing through but looks as though if you use M60, M62, M61,M56,M57 and others within this zone you will be charged.
This is an undisguised money grab and will treat motorhomes and campers as delivery vans.

 

[Minxy]

I'm not convinced it will affect MHs as they will be private HGV/LGVs not HGV/LGVs and are classed the same as private cars which are not charged for.

 

[Gromett]

I'm not convinced it will affect MHs as they will be private HGV/LGVs not HGV/LGVs and are classed the same as private cars which are not charged for.

View attachment 535150

According to this page it is?

Which takes you to; So some will be ok and other won't be. Looks like if you have a Euro VI or cleaner you are ok. Otherwise it will be £10.

Greater Manchester Clean Air Plan | Clean Air Greater Manchester

Greater Manchester Clean Air Plan

cleanairgm.com

 

[GJH]

This is an undisguised money grab and will treat motorhomes and campers as delivery vans.

No it isn't. As with other schemes in other areas of the country, it is local councils following government policy as legislation requires them to.
Motorhomes have always been included in the LEZ in London.

 

[rb62]

https://cleanairgm.com/
Please read this and record your objections.
One motorhome dealer has already said that he is going to move out of the area.
Going away out of the area you will be charged.
Coming home you will be charged.
Not sure about passing through but looks as though if you use M60, M62, M61,M56,M57 and others within this zone you will be charged.
This is an undisguised money grab and will treat motorhomes and campers as delivery vans.

According to this not motorways,

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[AndyPK]

But what are/will be the ‘few exceptions’……?

 

[Guffy60]

If euro VI compliant aren’t we exempt?

 

[GJH]

If euro VI compliant aren’t we exempt?

Yes.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Euro 6… no charge

 

[GJH]

But what are/will be the ‘few exceptions’……?

See foot of this page:

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[Cheshirecat57]

https://cleanairgm.com/
Please read this and record your objections.
One motorhome dealer has already said that he is going to move out of the area.
Going away out of the area you will be charged.
Coming home you will be charged.
Not sure about passing through but looks as though if you use M60, M62, M61,M56,M57 and others within this zone you will be charged.
This is an undisguised money grab and will treat motorhomes and campers as delivery vans.

No it isnt, its an effort to get more polluting vehicles off the roads, a dis-incentive to run such a polluting vehicle
im all for it to be honest

 

[Pausim]

Over the coming years it is going to get harder and harder to drive round in anything with less than a Euro VI rating.

 

[grumps147]

But what are/will be the ‘few exceptions’……?
View attachment 535169

The few exceptions are shown below. The bulk of Highways England maintained roads including all motorways are not included in the legislation …..

 

[tonyidle]

No it isnt, its an effort to get more polluting vehicles off the roads, a dis-incentive to run such a polluting vehicle
im all for it to be honest

Setting it it at Euro5 for vehicles that have a longer life and aren't changed so often would reduce the burden on owners of leisure vehicles with little effect on air quality and pollution. It also disproportionately affects those who cannot afford to change their cars - probably the majority.

 

[GJH]

Setting it it at Euro5 for vehicles that have a longer life and aren't changed so often would reduce the burden on owners of leisure vehicles with little effect on air quality and pollution. It also disproportionately affects those who cannot afford to change their cars - probably the majority.

The Minimum Emission Standards are set by the government: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-a-clean-air-zone#minimum-emission-standards

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[Bucket]

When the Bath LEZ was imminent our local council website stated our MH was exempt (2007 3k cc), then just after it came in I checked again and found it was no longer. Now £9 poorer I have to drive almost to Bristol to double back so I can get on the roads East, don't quite see how that is going to improve the environment.....?

 

[82125]

No it isnt, its an effort to get more polluting vehicles off the roads, a dis-incentive to run such a polluting vehicle
im all for it to be honest

not really,
just an excuse to steal money under the guise of climate change.
Taking money from peoples accounts doesnt reduce CO2, and people arent going to invest 10's of thousands of pounds in a new motorhome just for 2 or 3 trips away each year. Its just stealing an extra £60 or so because they can.
But as stated many motorhomes will be Euro VI compliant anyway, but for those that arent I doubt they will buy one that is just to be classed as compliant. As usual they will just hand over the money (which is the aim). Money grab.

By their reckoning (the policy makers), full time vanlifers should get a rebate paid to them. Their overall CO2 (and other) contribution is far lower than anyone living in bricks and motor consuming without end. But of course thats not how its works, because it isnt about reducing CO2 or protecting the environment, its about ways to steal money with a back story that "justifies" it.

 

[tonyidle]

not really,
just an excuse to steal money under the guise of climate change.
Taking money from peoples accounts doesnt reduce CO2, and people arent going to invest 10's of thousands of pounds in a new motorhome just for 2 or 3 trips away each year. Its just stealing an extra £60 or so because they can.
But as stated many motorhomes will be Euro VI compliant anyway, but for those that arent I doubt they will buy one that is just to be classed as compliant. As usual they will just hand over the money (which is the aim). Money grab.

By their reckoning (the policy makers), full time vanlifers should get a rebate paid to them. Their overall CO2 (and other) contribution is far lower than anyone living in bricks and motor consuming without end. But of course thats not how its works, because it isnt about reducing CO2 or protecting the environment, its about ways to steal money with a back story that "justifies" it.

Low emissions zones are concerned with air quality more than CO emissions - in other word NOx emissions. For example Euro5 to Euro6 reduces NOx from 0.18 to 0.08 g/km.

 

[Guigsy]

The confusion around Manchester's CAZ is that private cars aren't included. Only vans and trucks needed to be Euro6 or they'll be charged. Motorhomes are in the same general class of private vehicles, so wouldn't need to be compliant.

But they are now considering whether to include motorhomes in the scheme. Which would mean you'd need to be Euro6.

The annoying thing is that a car towing a caravan doesn't need to comply, but a motorhome does.

 

[Puddleduck]

Setting it it at Euro5 for vehicles that have a longer life and aren't changed so often would reduce the burden on owners of leisure vehicles with little effect on air quality and pollution. It also disproportionately affects those who cannot afford to change their cars - probably the majority.

At some point only electric vehicles won't be charged.

I've been contacting manufacturers about the possibility of adapting electric vehicles for wheelchair users and haven't found a single manufacturer that has a standard production vehicle that can have a rear ramp and hoist fitted and has enough headroom through the vehicle to accommodate an adult wheelchair user. One could have a side ramp but in the UK disabled spaces assume a rear ramp so a side ramp vehicle would be pretty useless in a standard disabled space. (I'm not suggesting disabled spaces should now have extra space at the side btw, just pointing out the issues for wheelchair users.)

Most manufacturers have not considered wheelchair users at all and are clueless when it comes to positioning of ramps and mechanisms, headroom and door opening.

And don't even mention how a wheelchair user is supposed to access a charging point


I will now climb down from my soap box.

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[Puddleduck]

It is possible to register a vehicle as used by a disabled person at the DVLA but it's not easy.

You can apply for exemption if you get the:
higher rate mobility component of DLA
enhanced rate mobility component of PIP
higher rate mobility component of CDP
War Pensioners’ Mobility Supplement or
Armed Forces Independence Payment

The vehicle must be registered in the disabled person’s name or their nominated driver’s name.

It must only be used for the disabled person’s personal needs. It cannot be used by the nominated driver for their own personal use.

You can only have one vehicle tax exemption at any one time.


In effect this means that if my sister or I were to apply for this registration only one of us could do so and we would not be able to use the vehicle apart from transporting Dad. .When Martin and I bought our last car the existing wheelchair adaptation was the most important reason for getting that particular car. It is not registered as a disability vehicle for obvious reasons but the folding wheelchair does live in the boot Exemption from VED is not a concern for us but if we need to get Dad to a hospital in a LEZ we would have to pay. Blue Badge holders are not exempt so carers using their own vehicles as part of their caring are having to pay - carers are often either unpaid or on very low pay and, it appears to me, being almost targeted.

I raised this with the ULEZ authorities and was told to either register my car with the DVLA as above (?) or pay the fee, get a letter from the hospital with date and time of appointment and sending in the original letter from the DWP with entitlement of the above benefits (Dad isn't on any of them) and they would consider a refund.

 

[tonyidle]

At some point only electric vehicles won't be charged.

I've been contacting manufacturers about the possibility of adapting electric vehicles for wheelchair users and haven't found a single manufacturer that has a standard production vehicle that can have a rear ramp and hoist fitted and has enough headroom through the vehicle to accommodate an adult wheelchair user. One could have a side ramp but in the UK disabled spaces assume a rear ramp so a side ramp vehicle would be pretty useless in a standard disabled space. (I'm not suggesting disabled spaces should now have extra space at the side btw, just pointing out the issues for wheelchair users.)

Most manufacturers have not considered wheelchair users at all and are clueless when it comes to positioning of ramps and mechanisms, headroom and door opening.

And don't even mention how a wheelchair user is supposed to access a charging point


I will now climb down from my soap box.

What vehicle do you use at the moment? Your concerns will be felt by thousands of wheelchair users.

 

[Larrynwin]

It will become a minefield knowing exactly where we can and cannot go so I guess we just avoid these places and spend our money elsewhere.

 

[Puddleduck]

What vehicle do you use at the moment? Your concerns will be felt by thousands of wheelchair users.

Peugeot Partner Teepee (very similar to the Peugeot Partner Horizon) It's 9 years old now. The newer models have a slightly different shape but are still a popular choice. There are no plans at present for an electric version of this vehicle (I've asked).

The size and shape of the vehicle make it highly suitable for conversion (which is why so many wheelchair adapted vehicles use this and the Citroen Belingo) as the base. Ours is also fitted with full hand controls so can be driven foot and leg free so to speak. On long trips the use of hand controls rather than foot controls does help relieve cramp.

The rear side doors slide all the way back so make for easy access and the front doors are wider and open wider (more than 90 degrees) than many other cars.

I get 60 mpg (checked over several full tanks of fuel so takes into account my usual combined cycle of driving) and the range is more than 500 miles. Filling up with fuel when in a wheelchair can be "interesting" and always relies on the help of other people which is why one doesn't want to have to refuel too often.

 

[tonyidle]

Peugeot Partner Teepee It's 9 years old now. The newer models have a slightly different shape but are still a popular choice.

The size and shape of the vehicle make it highly suitable for conversion (which is why so many wheelchair adapted vehicles use this and the Citroen Belingo) as the base. Ours is also fitted with full hand controls so can be driven foot and leg free so to speak. On long trips the use of hand controls rather than foot controls does help relieve cramp.

The rear side doors slide all the way back so make for easy access and the front doors are wider and open wider (more than 90 degrees) than many other cars.

Hopefully light vans will be available quickly as EVs so converters will move to EV equivalents of existing conversions. I believe we're not far enough along the EV route so it'll be a few years before specialist vehicles become available. But they will because they simply have to do so. I guessed which vehicle you'd have at the moment because they appear to be the most popular for your use.

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[Guigsy]

Hopefully light vans will be available quickly as EVs so converters will move to EV equivalents of existing conversions. I believe we're not far enough along the EV route so it'll be a few years before specialist vehicles become available. But they will because they simply have to do so. I guessed which vehicle you'd have at the moment because they appear to be the most popular for your use.

As Puddleduck said though, at the moment pretty much all battery EVs are roller-skate type designs with the battery in the floor and under the seats. So you can't hack into it to make it wheelchair friendly. Battery vans are coming, but at the moment they are very expensive and have poor range.

 

[tonyidle]

As Puddleduck said though, at the moment pretty much all battery EVs are roller-skate type designs with the battery in the floor and under the seats. So you can't hack into it to make it wheelchair friendly. Battery vans are coming, but at the moment they are very expensive and have poor range.

Completely agree - there's a way to go.

 

[Puddleduck]

Hopefully light vans will be available quickly as EVs so converters will move to EV equivalents of existing conversions. I believe we're not far enough along the EV route so it'll be a few years before specialist vehicles become available. But they will because they simply have to do so. I guessed which vehicle you'd have at the moment because they appear to be the most popular for your use.

Guigsy tonyidle

It's not quite as easy as that though The batteries for EVs are fitted where the ramp and ramp mechanism goes. Some people are okay with the fold up ramps (personally I hate them as they get in the way when the vehicle is in standard use and I hate the amount of light they block out - also a nuisance in an accident when fast access needed to the rear - if Dad has an accident I need to be with him asap and not have to move the folded up ramp first)) anyway the mechanism still has to be accommodated.

Having rear passengers in a van not designed to carry rear passengers is another can of worms - think seat belts and restraints and crumple zones. I am not saying it won't happen as it will BUT at the moment the LEZs and ULEZs are very much tilted against people who need specialist vehicles and are unwilling or unable to buy anything newer than what they have.

My car is 9 years old and in great condition. I would only replace it if it becomes uneconomic to repair. When it is replaced I am hoping that there is an electric vehicle that will do what I need otherwise it will be another diesel Peugeot purely for practicality.

 

[charliesgrandad]

According to this page it is?


View attachment 535152


Which takes you to; So some will be ok and other won't be. Looks like if you have a Euro VI or cleaner you are ok. Otherwise it will be £10.
View attachment 535153

Greater Manchester Clean Air Plan | Clean Air Greater Manchester

Greater Manchester Clean Air Plan

cleanairgm.com

Just checked mine and it doesn't appear to correspond with the N1 and N2 classification , just been on gov website and this is what it says about mine
Vehicle type approvalN1
Wheelplan3 AXLE RIGID BODY
Revenue weight5300 kg
Mine is over 3,5t so would have thought it would be classed N2

 

[82125]

Low emissions zones are concerned with air quality more than CO emissions - in other word NOx emissions. For example Euro5 to Euro6 reduces NOx from 0.18 to 0.08 g/km.

think my point still stands though (whether its CO2 or NOx) its generation of taxes "for the greater good" whilst not actually tackling it.
Just another hoop to jump through, which once you have, they come up with a new one (to generate revenue).

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