Fiat Ducato 2018 2.3 Engine knocking

[Toady]

I have used Spitfire garage in the past and they were very good but I would contact them about where your van will be stored overnight because their storage area is small.

 

[PeterCarole29]

Main dealers - hate 'em. Their costs anyway.
My wife ran over a pothole in the car (not van) and the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree with warning lights including a message warning about a brake sensor.
Main dealer, 'well it is a 7-year-old car sir'. Scathing, pompous git. Get knotted I thought.
'It's £138 for a diagnostic test, then we'll see.' He continued.
Then it would have been £100 plus per hour plus parts to sort out whatever it was.
Took it to a local garage on friend's recommendation.
They diagnosed it, ordered a part, repaired it 2 hours later (new ABW sensor on rear wheel), and I was tucking into a glass of red in time for Bargain Hunt.
Total cost - £60.

(New engine from the same place - £18.70)

£18.70 can i buy 10 please

 

[RichP66]

I,m not sure when main dealers speak of engine replacement they actually only supply new the block and head
everything else is removed from your own engine ie injectors pump starter motor alternator air con
If they are supplying a complete swop over you must be looking at 0ver £10,000 plus

I spoke with the service manager yesterday, still waiting for an email detailing estimated costs. He did say a new engine fitted would be around £15k! Probably using all the old components from current engine.

 

[RichP66]

If it runs and drives, suggesting removing the engine before knowing what is wrong is stupidity.

Get it to a diesel specialist first as those symptoms are typical of a leaking injector or faulty high pressure fuel pump or rail.

Once the engine is out, the labour costs will increase quickly with stripping and checking but if it is an injector or other ancillary part then nothing will be found. Replacing the engine could involve refitting the problem ancillary part.

Yes, I’m wondering about taking it somewhere else before costs skyrocket. Removing & stripping engine £4.7k (plus any repair needed). New engine fitted approximately £15k. They’re pretty sure it’s nothing to do with the injectors. Also said the noise is from inside the engine - piston slap suggested as a possibility?

 

[RichP66]

You could try BTA Motorhomes at Wickham, Snows at Bursledon or Spitfire Garage in Wollston - have used all three in the past and all have been good.

For the sake of clarity, my earlier post about AM is based on using the Southampton branch.

Yes, I’ve used the Southampton branch as closest Fiat when under warranty etc. Took it to Portsmouth as that branch has beefy recommended on here. Spitfire garage is closer to me - I’m up Salisbury way. I’ll have to give them a call..

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[RichP66]

Main dealers - hate 'em. Their costs anyway.
My wife ran over a pothole in the car (not van) and the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree with warning lights including a message warning about a brake sensor.
Main dealer, 'well it is a 7-year-old car sir'. Scathing, pompous git. Get knotted I thought.
'It's £138 for a diagnostic test, then we'll see.' He continued.
Then it would have been £100 plus per hour plus parts to sort out whatever it was.
Took it to a local garage on friend's recommendation.
They diagnosed it, ordered a part, repaired it 2 hours later (new ABW sensor on rear wheel), and I was tucking into a glass of red in time for Bargain Hunt.
Total cost - £60.

(New engine from the same place - £18.70)

Man, I love Bargain Hunt!

 

[ambulancekidd]

Garages can be very guilty of believing that modern engines are knackered, when very often, thats not the case.

Watch the next video carefully, it is a true eye opener.

 

[Guigsy]

Yes, I’m wondering about taking it somewhere else before costs skyrocket. Removing & stripping engine £4.7k (plus any repair needed). New engine fitted approximately £15k. They’re pretty sure it’s nothing to do with the injectors. Also said the noise is from inside the engine - piston slap suggested as a possibility?

I'm not sure (someone knowledgeable will correct me), but if the injectors are leaking, then I think it sounds like engine knock. The fuel is present too early in the cycle, so it pre-ignites before it reaches top dead centre. Which rattles the pistons in their bores. Another reason to suspect it's leaking injectors is it goes away at speed because the leak isn't much addition compared to the normal injections. It can still lead to engine damage though.

 

[RichP66]

Garages can be very guilty of believing that modern engines are knackered, when very often, thats not the case.

Watch the next video carefully, it is a true eye opener.

Fingers crossed for mine. They do say in the video ‘shame they’re not all like that’ though..

 

[RichP66]

I'm not sure (someone knowledgeable will correct me), but if the injectors are leaking, then I think it sounds like engine knock. The fuel is present too early in the cycle, so it pre-ignites before it reaches top dead centre. Which rattles the pistons in their bores. Another reason to suspect it's leaking injectors is it goes away at speed because the leak isn't much addition compared to the normal injections. It can still lead to engine damage though.

Sounds plausible to me (non mechanic!). How quickly would the engine be damaged? I’d have to drive it to another garage as people have suggested, plus it’s done about 100 miles with the knock

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[Ernesto]

Sounds plausible to me (non mechanic!). How quickly would the engine be damaged? I’d have to drive it to another garage as people have suggested, plus it’s done about 100 miles with the knock

As an alternative, can you ask them to explain in layman's terms, how they are so certain its not the injectors ?

 

[Landy Andy]

Sounds plausible to me (non mechanic!). How quickly would the engine be damaged? I’d have to drive it to another garage as people have suggested, plus it’s done about 100 miles with the knock

Depending on the cause depends on how much damage is done with miles. Ideally get it recovered to a workshop.
Over fuelling, or miss timed fuelling can easily cause a knock. A fuel caused knock is unlikely to have damaged your engine in 100miles in my opinion. But don’t push your luck. I would leave sump off and get it recovered to diesel specialist.

I don’t think AM are trying to rip you off, it just isn’t their thing. They want a guaranteed result, and don’t care about the cost of that. Changing to new gives the best chance of a cure, but obviously at your cost. Also diagnostics is very expensive at a main dealer so you soon rattle up nearer new engine money. Where as an alternative garage will be a lot less, so more time can be spent on working out the issues.

Is the knock always consistent? Hot/cold, fast/slow, high revs/low revs, under load/not?

 

[Bazzaware]

Garages can be very guilty of believing that modern engines are knackered, when very often, thats not the case.

Watch the next video carefully, it is a true eye opener.

Very interesting video. I had something similar with my T5 going i to limp mode when driving. The local main dealer said I needed a new turbo. Took it to a local garage and turned out to be a broken wire. £250 and it was all sorted.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Yes, I’m wondering about taking it somewhere else before costs skyrocket. Removing & stripping engine £4.7k (plus any repair needed). New engine fitted approximately £15k. They’re pretty sure it’s nothing to do with the injectors. Also said the noise is from inside the engine - piston slap suggested as a possibility?

It’s easy to spend someone else’s money and they are taking the full replacement option to cover their arse instead of being straight up and admitting that this situation isn’t their specialty. Injector testing is easy to do the basics with a leak off pot stack but the spray pattern needs specialist kit and cannot be guessed for either.
I would identify where it needs to be and use your breakdown provider to get it there if you have worries of driving it.
The other thing I would suggest is that they are quoting at their main stealer hourly rates which are likely to be at least 30% higher than an independent engine specialist. You will soon recover any additional costs for transportation.

This is a great example of how people get so wrong with diagnostics.
My brother had a knock and bad running earlier this year with his Nissan Juke and was adamant that the engine was shot. Wouldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding after progressively getting worse.
He wasn’t interested in having it repaired as he decided a new engine wasn’t worth doing so sold it for little more than scrap to a mate who buys this type of thing and fits replacement engines or gearboxes for major fails.
The guy did some checking to find it ran perfectly on brake cleaner and traced the noise to a failed fuel pump actuator can bucket and the turbo had failed. The cam bucket was £70 and a second hand turbo was £350. Runs a treat now and sold on at market value as the engine is still totally original.

 

[Landy Andy]

It’s easy to spend someone else’s money and they are taking the full replacement option to cover their arse instead of being straight up and admitting that this situation isn’t their specialty. Injector testing is easy to do the basics with a leak off pot stack but the spray pattern needs specialist kit and cannot be guessed for either.
I would identify where it needs to be and use your breakdown provider to get it there if you have worries of driving it.
The other thing I would suggest is that they are quoting at their main stealer hourly rates which are likely to be at least 30% higher than an independent engine specialist. You will soon recover any additional costs for transportation.

This is a great example of how people get so wrong with diagnostics.
My brother had a knock and bad running earlier this year with his Nissan Juke and was adamant that the engine was shot. Wouldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding after progressively getting worse.
He wasn’t interested in having it repaired as he decided a new engine wasn’t worth doing so sold it for little more than scrap to a mate who buys this type of thing and fits replacement engines or gearboxes for major fails.
The guy did some checking to find it ran perfectly on brake cleaner and traced the noise to a failed fuel pump actuator can bucket and the turbo had failed. The cam bucket was £70 and a second hand turbo was £350. Runs a treat now and sold on at market value as the engine is still totally original.

Exactly.

People just want to throw it away and buy new.

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[gus-lopez]

Removing & stripping engine £4.7k (plus any repair needed). New engine fitted approximately £15k. They’re pretty sure it’s nothing to do with the injectors.

there are many engine rebuilders who will rebuild a short block with new pistons,rings,etc, for less than 1500 quid. If you don't want to do it yourself many will dismantle remove ,rebuild & refit for a price. Have a look at salvage rebuilds Uk new engine for a Ford Ranger . Yes they rebuilt themselves but the company would have done the complete job if required.
link here

 

[Landy Andy]

I would prefer a used engine than a rebuild. Or a unit from vehicle manufacturer. I can not ever remember a successful engine rebuild outside of racing, or classic vehicles.

Most “rebuilders, or re conditioners” are shitsters.

My best mate is a manager at a garage. They are now only, customer provides engine. The garage won’t as they have so many problems they then have to sort FOC with rebuilt/re manufactured units. The big boys such as Ivor Searle are still poo and required a second unit to be provided, which was the end of garage provided units.

 

[gus-lopez]

Most “rebuilders, or re conditioners” are shitsters.

If the rebuilder is dismantling ,overhauling & refitting you'd hope they had confidence in themselves.

 

[Landy Andy]

If the rebuilder is dismantling ,overhauling & refitting you'd hope they had confidence in themselves.

I will try and find the video of the engine sent to my mates garage on first ever start up.

It was horrendous. They replied and said noise could be the accessories that have been fitted to engine. At this point there wasn’t any fitted. It was shot, bottom end. You could hear noise by turning it by hand. Garage then had to pay for another engine, swap, and then wait to see if they get a refund or not. Which they did after about 6 weeks.

 

[Barti Ddu]

If the noise goes when you engage the clutch I think it would be fair to say it’s to do with that.

I’m guessing the van runs a dual mass flywheel, if so could be that.

But it is a guess and difficult to diagnose without hearing it.

Good luck

Obviously without seeing or hearing it it's hard to diagnose. But - if its knocking on idle but improves once the clutch is depressed then I'd agree it sounds like a dual mass flywheel issue.

Had exactly the same on a 1.9TDI VW diesel engine.

New flywheel (and might as well replace the clutch at the same time) hopefully might sort it. Lot cheaper than a new engine!

Good luck.

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[WESTY66]

Usually a KNOCK means damage (except an injector knock) so if they’re convinced it’s inside the engine I thought they would be getting the oil away to be sampled for a metal in it. In my limited experience a diesel knock is usually worse when cold. I’ve never experienced a clutch/flywheel knocking noise, but as a rule of thumb a “knock” is usually bottom end and a “tapping” is usually top end

 

[Silver-Fox]

Had exactly the same on a 1.9TDI VW diesel engine.

They are renowned for it.

Never did understand why they went to them unless it was because the made the gearboxes out of chocolate.

 

[MichaelT]

Usually a KNOCK means damage (except an injector knock) so if they’re convinced it’s inside the engine I thought they would be getting the oil away to be sampled for a metal in it. In my limited experience a diesel knock is usually worse when cold. I’ve never experienced a clutch/flywheel knocking noise, but as a rule of thumb a “knock” is usually bottom end and a “tapping” is usually top end

I think you're right and instead of Adam Moreys they should take it to a proper knocking shop

 

[RichP66]

Depending on the cause depends on how much damage is done with miles. Ideally get it recovered to a workshop.
Over fuelling, or miss timed fuelling can easily cause a knock. A fuel caused knock is unlikely to have damaged your engine in 100miles in my opinion. But don’t push your luck. I would leave sump off and get it recovered to diesel specialist.

I don’t think AM are trying to rip you off, it just isn’t their thing. They want a guaranteed result, and don’t care about the cost of that. Changing to new gives the best chance of a cure, but obviously at your cost. Also diagnostics is very expensive at a main dealer so you soon rattle up nearer new engine money. Where as an alternative garage will be a lot less, so more time can be spent on working out the issues.

Is the knock always consistent? Hot/cold, fast/slow, high revs/low revs, under load/not?

The knock doesn’t appear straight away after starting, it takes a few seconds of the engine running before the knock kicks in. It’s very noticeable at idle. When driving along under any load or revs the knock can’t really be heard. Pulling up and going into neutral it’s very noticeable, even when clutch depressed.

I’ll ask how they’re sure it’s not an injector/ fuel caused knock.

As you say, I don’t think they’re trying to rip me off, it’s just their high costs and possibly the fact it’s not their thing if it’s not an easy certain diagnosis..

Another real worry is them doing something at high cost to me without knowing it will fix the issue if they don’t identify the problem

 

[RichP66]

Obviously without seeing or hearing it it's hard to diagnose. But - if its knocking on idle but improves once the clutch is depressed then I'd agree it sounds like a dual mass flywheel issue.

Had exactly the same on a 1.9TDI VW diesel engine.

New flywheel (and might as well replace the clutch at the same time) hopefully might sort it. Lot cheaper than a new engine!

Good luck.

It doesn’t improve with the clutch depressed unfortunately. I wish I’d taken a video of the sound to post up. The garage is an hour and a half away from me though. I could take a trip down there to see what’s going on- don’t know what state they’ve got the van in - whether it’s startable..

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[RichP66]

Usually a KNOCK means damage (except an injector knock) so if they’re convinced it’s inside the engine I thought they would be getting the oil away to be sampled for a metal in it. In my limited experience a diesel knock is usually worse when cold. I’ve never experienced a clutch/flywheel knocking noise, but as a rule of thumb a “knock” is usually bottom end and a “tapping” is usually top end

They said no metal in the oil - whether it was sent for proper analysis I don’t know.
When first started cold the knock isn’t noticeable- it takes a few seconds of engine running to get going

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Is it possible to get a video of the engine running from fire up to the point at which it starts to knock? Ive gone through the thread and too my things are not adding up? As westy66 stated ...Metal in the oil sample would indicate a failure of the engine at sump level. Being a bearing at the most! That being said...Has an oil sample been taken by any of the garages /specialists/ professional folks ( I could go on!) ?? You cannot just diagnose without a sample being taken. It will identify a break down in a system whether it be metal or a fuel supply or water etc
Kev

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Is this of help at all? Kev

 

[RichP66]

I would prefer a used engine than a rebuild. Or a unit from vehicle manufacturer. I can not ever remember a successful engine rebuild outside of racing, or classic vehicles.

Most “rebuilders, or re conditioners” are shitsters.

My best mate is a manager at a garage. They are now only, customer provides engine. The garage won’t as they have so many problems they then have to sort FOC with rebuilt/re manufactured units. The big boys such as Ivor Searle are still poo and required a second unit to be provided, which was the end of garage provided units.

I must admit, due to how much the van is worth, if a new engine is required to fix the problem I’d rather get a Fiat supplied and fitted one. Hopefully it’d last longer than 19k miles..

 

[RichP66]

Is this of help at all? Kev

Yes, definitely not that. The knock is loud and consistent - easily heard in the cab with windows up when at idle even with clutch depressed. No clatter after turning off. When driving along I really couldn’t tell a difference in the engine sound- the knock may well have been there but masked by the engine revving under load.

I will ask the garage how the oil was tested - the service manager stated there was no swarf in the oil- whether that was just a crude assessment I don’t know..

I may be able to obtain a video next week, will visit the garage

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