EBL-211 need to stop charging when on EHU

[Motorhomer14]

I have a EBL-211 and a lithium battery on my van. The EBL-211 does not have a Lithium profile charging so I have removed the 240V power supply to this to prevent it charging.
This works all ok, I do not need lithium charging as I have 300 watts solar and a 30 A B2B.

But I loose a few things

I loose starter battery charging when on EHU (I could install a cheap charger to overcome this)
I loose EHU indication (not a major issue)
I loose the 12v load running on the EBL rather than all on the battery when on EHU

So I was thinking of installing a 240v relay to disconnect the lithium from the EBL when on EHU. This will allow the EBL to charge the starter battery and the EBL to take on the vehicle loads.

My question is can the EBL take on the vehicle loads without the leisure battery connected. The EBL has a 20 amp fuse coming out the charger and a 30 A fuse on the battery input. I am thinking that on EHU the EBL and leisure battery share the load, when high demand the battery takes up the slack and when low the EBL take on the work and charges the battery. If this is correct then installing the 240v relay would not be a good idea

If this is not a good idea then is there a lithium charger which will also charge a lead acid starter battery.

 

[Pausim]

I have no experience of the EBL211 but when I wanted to do something similar to my EBL29 I was advised by Udo Lang at Schaudt as follows.

“the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.”

This should take care of your first 2 concerns but not the third. As far as I know the 12V electrics are powered by the battery and the charger is designed to feed the battery, so I am not sure how well the charger would perform doing the load without the battery in the circuit.

On my latest motorhome I have not bothered with a special Li mains charger, I leave the charger on the Gel setting. At 14.4V this may achieve a little bit less than a 100% charge of the Li battery but when on hook up I don’t care. My B2B makes sure it starts at 100% when off grid.

 

[Motorhomer14]

I have no experience of the EBL211 but when I wanted to do something similar to my EBL29 I was advised by Udo Lang at Schaudt as follows.

“the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.”

This should take care of your first 2 concerns but not the third. As far as I know the 12V electrics are powered by the battery and the charger is designed to feed the battery, so I am not sure how well the charger would perform doing the load without the battery in the circuit.

On my latest motorhome I have not bothered with a special Li mains charger, I leave the charger on the Gel setting. At 14.4V this may achieve a little bit less than a 100% charge of the Li battery but when on hook up I don’t care. My B2B makes sure it starts at 100% when off grid.

Thanks for the info. I have removed the 20 amp fuse but with the EBL this removes all the charging including starter battery. I think you may be correct that the EBL will not be man enough to take on the van load.
I have spoken to a number of lithium dealers and they have said although the Gel setting on the chargers are at the correct voltage the absorption charging is 6 hours where as lithium only require 2 hours and the float charging is continues where lithium will only want this till full then switch off. Any over voltage damage picked up on the BMS will not be covered on warranty. There is a lot of discutient about incorrect charging of lithium battery's and how this can reduce the overall life of the batter,
I think like you said the best option may be to get a dedicated lithium charger and a separate starter charger for the vehicle battery

My EBL schematic is shown below and you can see the red line at the top the 20a int. charge fuse it removes all charging

 

[andy63]

Different set up to yours in that my system is the cbe set up which is modular and the mains charger is a separate unit..
I have it disconnected from the board and wired directly to the start battery and if I feel that needs charging I turn the charger on manually..
I have installed a victron 20 amp mains charger in its place fof the lithium leisure batteries, which can act as a power pack and supply loads up to its 20 amp limit before the battery makes up any shortfall, again its a manually switched charger which I only turn on if I feel the battery to battery and solar need some support.. to date its never used..
Andy
Ps..I should add that I've never had the need to use an inverter..but recently installed one for fun... that may mean the victron mains charger gets a bit more use

 

[autorouter]

I have no experience of the EBL211 but when I wanted to do something similar to my EBL29 I was advised by Udo Lang at Schaudt as follows.

“the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.”

I don't like to say this, but I'm afraid the starter battery will not be charged if the that fuse is removed. However the mains indicator will still show up.

The issue of the EBL charger working when no battery is connected, I don't know. This arrangement is possible, and is implemented on some motorhomes. It's called 'off-line charging', and there's a mains power supply plus a separate multistage intelligent charger for just charging the battery. As an example, the Victron IP65 charger can operate in power supply mode without a battery.

Edit: sorry looks like I'm just repeating what's already been said.

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[autorouter]

The starter battery usually doesn't need a lot of charging - it is usually full when you arrive at a site or back home. A simple mains battery maintainer will keep it topped up, and can be left connected permanently if you want. For example an Optimate, or a CTEK 0.7A charger. Another option might be a solar controller that has a starter battery output.

 

[andy63]

Just to add..the victron blue smart series and the last Stirling mains charger can be used as a stand alone power supply and don't need a battery in circut...up to their rated capacity..
Andy

 

[Pausim]

I don't like to say this, but I'm afraid the starter battery will not be charged if the that fuse is removed. However the mains indicator will still show up.

You could be right the advice from Udo was for an EBL 29 not a 211.

Motorhomer14 perhaps you should email Udo to get specific advice for the EBL211. The email address I used was
Udo.Lang@schaudt-gmbh.de
You can email him in English.

 

[autorouter]

You could be right the advice from Udo was for an EBL 29 not a 211.

Unfortunately the EBL 29 and 211 are the same on that point, and so is my EBL101. I remember saying exactly the same as Udo Lang, and someone on here corrected me, and he was right. Can't remember who it was, but thanks.

 

[Pausim]

Unfortunately the EBL 29 and 211 are the same on that point, and so is my EBL101. I remember saying exactly the same as Udo Lang, and someone on here corrected me, and he was right. Can't remember who it was, but thanks.

I have just looked at the wiring diagram for the EBL29 and notice that the LAS1218 charger has a secondary output that connects to the mains indicator light. This output also connects to a relay which then appears to connect back into the system on the other side of the 20A fuse that Udo suggested removing. I assume this is how this lesser output continues to feed the engine battery on the 29.

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[stevewagner]

I had a similar issue when I fitted lithium batteries. I have a Sterling b2b charger so bought a Sterling battery master and connected it to the two terminals on the b2b charger. This ensures I have a trickle charge to the starter battery.

 

[autorouter]

I have just looked at the wiring diagram for the EBL29 and notice that the LAS1218 charger has a secondary output that connects to the mains indicator light. This output also connects to a relay which then appears to connect back into the system on the other side of the 20A fuse that Udo suggested removing. I assume this is how this lesser output continues to feed the engine battery on the 29.

This secondary output connected to the mains indicator light does indeed connect to the coil of the starter battery relay, and switches it on. That connects the starter battery (through a diode and a voltage trimming circuit) to the other side of the charger 20A fuse, which is where the leisure battery is connected. There is no direct connection from the secondary output to the starter battery. The relay coil is isolated from the relay switch contacts.

I think the confusion arises because if the inbuilt EBL charger is the only charger in the system, there will be no charging of the leisure or starter batteries. However if another charger is connected to the leisure battery, then because the starter battery relay is switched on by the indicator signal, power from that other charger will go to the starter battery as well as the leisure battery.

This would also be true if the other charger was a solar controller, connected through the EBL. As long as the inbuilt mains charger was producing the mains-on signal and switching that starter relay, anything charging the leisure batteries would charge the starter battery too.

 

[andy63]

so bought a Sterling battery master and connected it to the two terminals on the b2b charger.

I have the same device and after running it between the batteries for a good while have now disconnected it and wired a dedicated solar controller to the start battery.. I've just installed a change over switch between the panels and two solar controllers.. one for the lithium and the other for the lead acid start battery..
Reason for trying it this way is because I think that during prolonged storage during winter the Stirling battery maintainer will draw the lithium batteries down eventually in its effort to keep the start battery topped up... and when it gets really cold you are better off isolating your lithium from all charging sources ... hence my change over switch to just charge the start battery which has a small but constant drain on it with the alarm and keep alive vehicle functions..the lithium are isolated from all loads and charging sources when the van is in winter storage..

I've disconnected this device

And installed a change over switch between panels and two controllers..
The controllers are still permanently connected to their respective batteries so I suppose the lithium are still supporting the controller and a battery monitor but they can last a very long time in that set up...

 

[stevewagner]

I have the same device and after running it between the batteries for a good while have now disconnected it and wired a dedicated solar controller to the start battery.. I've just installed a change over switch between the panels and two solar controllers.. one for the lithium and the other for the lead acid start battery..
Reason for trying it this way is because I think that during prolonged storage during winter the Stirling battery maintainer will draw the lithium batteries down eventually in its effort to keep the start battery topped up... and when it gets really cold you are better off isolating your lithium from all charging sources ... hence my change over switch to just charge the start battery which has a small but constant drain on it with the alarm and keep alive vehicle functions..the lithium are isolated from all loads and charging sources when the van is in winter storage..

I've disconnected this device
View attachment 548035

And installed a change over switch between panels and two controllers..
The controllers are still permanently connected to their respective batteries so I suppose the lithium are still supporting the controller and a battery monitor but they can last a very long time in that set up...
View attachment 548036

So as I understand it you switch over so that the PV is charging the cab battery. If that is the case wouldn’t leaving it on the leisure batteries keep the cab battery charged through the battery master? Mines been like it for a long while with no issues.

 

[andy63]

If that is the case wouldn’t leaving it on the leisure batteries keep the cab battery charged through the battery master? Mines been like it for a long while with no issues.

yes.. and thats how I ran it for a good while as well... but that involves possibly charging the lithiums under far from ideal conditions when the temp may be low... so to avoid that and leave the lithiums isolated under those conditions I switch the panels over to the controller that serves the start battery only...
Andy
im talking winter storage here

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[stevewagner]

yes.. and thats how I ran it for a good while as well... but that involves possibly charging the lithiums under far from ideal conditions when the temp may be low... so to avoid that and leave the lithiums isolated under those conditions I switch the panels over to the controller that serves the start battery only...
Andy
im talking winter storage here

Yep I get it now. We use ours quite a lot in winter

 

[andy63]

Yep I get it now. We use ours quite a lot in winter

I did as well but over the last 2yrs its sat around a fair bit in storage so that's what I came up with.. I've left the Stirling battery maintainer wired..just pulled the fuses and it ....may well come in handy again..
Andy

 

[Motorhomer14]

Thanks all for the info. I have spent some time looting at ways to block the charge voltage to the lithium using electronic components but all designs where becoming more complex that I thought it would be. Main issue is the van load around 30 amps will have to flow through any circuit under normal conditions.
I have now bought a Victron Energy Blue Smart IP65 Charger 12/10, this will be great for the van charging and I will get a change over switch so I can switch to charge the lithium if I really need to. This is a good size to get under the drivers seat.