B2B would there be any advantage for me

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Feb 15, 2010
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North Notts
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10,290
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Autotrail Cheyanne 584
Exp
Since 1992
I have a 1997 Fiat based autotrail, all old tech, all working as it should. My question is could I improve leisure battery charging if I fitted B2B instead of split charging, bearing in mind i don't have a smart alternator. My understanding is that I wouldn't gain much if anything. Any advice would be most welcome
 
Without the B2B I used to get 20amps ish.

That was on a Hymer with good wiring. You can triple that easily with a B2B. Autotrail aren’t renowned for using good cabling for battery charging.
 
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Without the B2B I used to get 20amps ish.

That was on a Hymer with good wiring. You can triple that easily with a B2B. Autotrail aren’t renowned for using good cabling for battery charging.
That is a fact, but if I were to do it i would upgrade the charging wiring,, not a difficult job on my van, that alone will increase the input
 
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That is a fact, but if I were to do it i would upgrade the charging wiring,, not a difficult job on my van, that alone will increase the input
It will, but if you’re going to that trouble, you may as well stick a B2B in while you are there.

I suppose the first question is, do you need better charging? You won’t see much change out of £200 by the time you have finished and that’s for a 30amp one.
 
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I had an autotrail 2019..no smart alternator and got about 7 amps from it. Weedy wiring.
I added a b2b direct from cab battery with 16mm cables and 50a fuse...then got 30ish...PLUS the 7 ish from the alternator.
defo worth doing in an autotrail.
 
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If everything is "working as it should", maybe you don't need B2B.
B2B will charge faster but why rush it? If your current behaviour is enough to keep everything charged-up, then you don't need to "improve" anything.
 
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I had an autotrail 2019..no smart alternator and got about 7 amps from it. Weedy wiring.
I added a b2b direct from cab battery with 16mm cables and 50a fuse...then got 30ish...PLUS the 7 ish from the alternator.
defo worth doing in an autotrail.
Bit confused by that, surely the 30amp is coming from the alternator or it would soon flatten the cab battery if the engine is not running. Do not understand why you think you are still getting the original 7amps, of course it is possible you are putting 37amps into your cab battery then spilling 30amps into your leisure battery. But that is not 30 plus 7 into your leisure battery.

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It depends on your battery capacity and which B2B you fit. There is a limit to how fast you can charge a lead-acid battery. Typically you should stay below C/5, where C is the battery capacity in Ah. So for a 100Ah battery that's 20A.

It's a good idea to measure the amps, either using the control panel display or a clamp meter, so you know how good/bad the existing split charge relay is. A B2B will supply the full rated current - what it says on the label - until the battery is at least 80% full.

If you only have one battery, the split charge relay might be supplying nearly 20A, so fitting a 20A B2B won't be much of an improvement.

If you fit two or more batteries, you'll still only get 20A from the split charger, so if you fit a 30A or 40A B2B it will be a big improvement.
 
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Bit confused by that, surely the 30amp is coming from the alternator or it would soon flatten the cab battery if the engine is not running.
The point is, he wired direct all the way from the starter battery to the B2B with new thick wires, rather than utilising the existing wires from the starter battery which were too thin. The B2B only fires up when the engine is running and the alternator is supplying power, so the alternator is always charging the starter battery and feeding the B2B, no power drains out of the starter battery to the leisure battery.
 
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It depends on your battery capacity and which B2B you fit. There is a limit to how fast you can charge a lead-acid battery. Typically you should stay below C/5, where C is the battery capacity in Ah. So for a 100Ah battery that's 20A.
It depends on your battery capacity and which B2B you fit. There is a limit to how fast you can charge a lead-acid battery. Typically you should stay below C/5, where C is the battery capacity in Ah. So for a 100Ah battery that's 20A.

It's a good idea to measure the amps, either using the control panel display or a clamp meter, so you know how good/bad the existing split charge relay is. A B2B will supply the full rated current - what it says on the label - until the battery is at least 80% full.

If you only have one battery, the split charge relay might be supplying nearly 20A, so fitting a 20A B2B won't be much of an improvement.

If you fit two or more batteries, you'll still only get 20A from the split charger, so if you fit a 30A or 40A B2B it will be a big improvement.
i Understand the physics well enough, 2 x 100 lead acid ahc btys fitted. The question stems from a 3 week trip, no EHU, the first 2 weeks the sun shone so the solar kept the btys topped up, the final week no sun so btys very low, it took over 200 miles driving to fully charge them. Which made me think about B2B. If went down this road i would fit 30A charger as i doubt my alternator puts out much more



 
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If everything is "working as it should", maybe you don't need B2B.
B2B will charge faster but why rush it? If your current behaviour is enough to keep everything charged-up, then you don't need to "improve" anything.
The question stems from a 3 week trip, no EHU, the first 2 weeks the sun shone so the solar kept the btys topped up, the final week no sun so btys very low, it took over 200 miles driving to fully charge them. Which made me think about B2B. If went down this road i would fit 30A charger as i doubt my alternator puts out much more
 
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The point is, he wired direct all the way from the starter battery to the B2B with new thick wires, rather than utilising the existing wires from the starter battery which were too thin. The B2B only fires up when the engine is running and the alternator is supplying power, so the alternator is always charging the starter battery and feeding the B2B, no power drains out of the starter battery to the leisure battery.
You are of course right, I was trying to use a simple analogy. Of course current will always flow from the highest voltage source, a running alternator. Where it goes depends upon the resistance of anything it is connected to. If the cab battery is fully charged the current will then flow to the leisure battery - from the alternator. In the same way if the cab battery is at a lower state it will receive the current. A decently wired split charge relay system, connected to an appropriately sized alternator, will be able to supply all the current required. The main advantage the B2B has is the ability to control the charge to the leisure battery with a proper Bulk, Absorption,Float regime which the alternator cannot. Typically a conventional vehicle alternator outputs around 14.4volts, to fully charge the leisure battery would require around 14.8volts. (assuming lead acid). Neither are good for a fully charged leisure battery which should float around 13.5 volts. The B2B can achieve this.

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Beefing-up your wiring might be a cheaper solution (if cost is an issue). I'd start by seeing how many Amps you get at the moment. Your needs will depend on usage and opportunities to replace. We tend to move every three days or so and are topped-up again by the time we stop, so no need for anything extra. In Winter, when demand is higher, we tend to get EHU. It's all a balancing act. Don't forget that B2B electricity is not cheap = You have to burn diesel to get it.
A B2B will follow a set charging profile and might be a benefit if you move to Lithium. I'm not sure how clever they are at deciding where to start from, though, and I have a feeling that they always start afresh. So, unless you are on a very long run, they may never reach the decision to go into the float stage...
 
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If you are going to fit a B2B you will need to upgrade the wiring, so why not upgrade the wiring and for a few quid more change the split chare relay for a higher rated one if needed and see how you get on, if not good enough fit the B2B as you already have done the wiring.

With decent cables depending on the length of cable run either 16mm sq or 25mm sq you should get 20-25 amps on startup dropping off to 12 -15 amps after about 10 min.
 
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If you are going to fit a B2B you will need to upgrade the wiring, so why not upgrade the wiring and for a few quid more change the split chare relay for a higher rated one if needed and see how you get on, if not good enough fit the B2B as you already have done the wiring.

With decent cables depending on the length of cable run either 16mm sq or 25mm sq you should get 20-25 amps on startup dropping off to 12 -15 amps after about 10 min.
Thanks, I think thats the way to go
 
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Beefing-up your wiring might be a cheaper solution (if cost is an issue). I'd start by seeing how many Amps you get at the moment. Your needs will depend on usage and opportunities to replace. We tend to move every three days or so and are topped-up again by the time we stop, so no need for anything extra. In Winter, when demand is higher, we tend to get EHU. It's all a balancing act. Don't forget that B2B electricity is not cheap = You have to burn diesel to get it.
A B2B will follow a set charging profile and might be a benefit if you move to Lithium. I'm not sure how clever they are at deciding where to start from, though, and I have a feeling that they always start afresh. So, unless you are on a very long run, they may never reach the decision to go into the float stage...
My Battery monitor tells me that when the engine first starts 20A are being delivered to 2 batterys, this drops off as the batteries charge, which is what you would expect. The way we use the van has changed as i get older, we used to stay a few days and move on, but we now tend to stay in one place for longer periods, some times we use EHU many times we don't and rely on solar to top up the batteries, if the sun shines that fine, if not we have a problem,as was the case last summer. It took 200 miles of driving before the batteries were up to 85%, which promted me to think about B2B. I think I will do as you suggestand beef up the wiring and the relays and see what effect that has and go from there. Thanks for your input
 
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I think I will do as you suggestand beef up the wiring and the relays and see what effect that has and go from there.
I can see how you could beef up the wiring, but I think you'll find it's more difficult to uprate the split charge relay. I'd guess it's built into the fusebox, probably soldered onto the PCB. I suppose you could just add another relay, wiring direct to the batteries.The two relays would work together, and you wouldn't have to disable the existing relay like you need to do for a B2B.

If you did that, all the wiring would be in place for a B2B, and in the future you could easily substitute that, but you'd need to disable the existing relay somehow.
 
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At the end of the day if you can afford it and need it them b2b with lithium and solar with an inverter is the way to go.
You can stop where and when you want and STILL use the coffee machine 😜.

I go to sites sometimes and dont even plug in.

I think Lenny HB has a setup where he hardly plugs in. It just gives you that extra bit of freedom.i haven't added my solar yet to my new van..it's been a bit cold to use the silka...but I spent last night off grid with my inverter at Chester...down to 70% this morning and I've just drove to West Kirby for about 35mim and now sat at 89%. I'll be at poss 80% before I leave then 100% before I get to the next stop
Its all about option's
 
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I had an autotrail 2019..no smart alternator and got about 7 amps from it. Weedy wiring.
Beefing-up your wiring might be a cheaper solution
Agreed. Older Brit m/h's do seem to have weedy wiring.

When I bought my 1995 V T4 based Compass the one previous owner said the only issue they had was with the poor capacity leisure battery and its inadequate re-charging whilst driving.
Although when I checked the system the battery voltage was fine at the battery terminal posts it was always about one volt lower at the habitation control panel. As an experiment I just 'draped' new thicker (no science, just thicker by eye) wires from the battery to the control panel which resulted in full battery voltage at the panel. I later ran the thicker wiring tidily and have not had any issues with the leisure battery in the past 11 years.

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I think @Lenny HB has a setup where he hardly plugs in.
Yep & I've only got 3 x 78ah Gels & 300 watts of solar, only time we have nearly run out of power was 14 days in one spot in Germany in October (I was stuck in hospital for a week, the boss had to be careful with power).
 
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I can see how you could beef up the wiring, but I think you'll find it's more difficult to uprate the split charge relay. I'd guess it's built into the fusebox, probably soldered onto the PCB. I suppose you could just add another relay, wiring direct to the batteries.The two relays would work together, and you wouldn't have to disable the existing relay like you need to do for a B2B.
My van is as old as god's dog, the relays are under the bonnet next to the starter battery, so updating them is not a problem, In fact I have them ready to fit, when it warms up It's my first job along with beefing up the cables, something I was going to do last year but ran out of nice days. I had seen a lot of posts relating to the virtues of B2B and wondered if it would benifit me while I was upgrading the wiring
 
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The consensus would appeare to be first beef up the charging cables and relays and see what improvment that brings, and then go from there. Thanks to all who contributed Regards Olly H
 
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You must be coming to the end of your time. Interesting times to have served. Civvy street must be a dauntng prospect, Took me 3 years to settle. Good luck
Would be but asked for another 5 yrs so I could work less and enjoy time off as I'll only work part time
 
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Would be but asked for another 5 yrs so I could work less and enjoy time off as I'll only work part time
You happy doing that ????. I guess it depends on what job you get. Think I would get cabin fever. Enjoy
 
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