AA withdraws breakdown cover from smart motorways (1 Viewer)

[Puddleduck]

I would rather be 10 minutes late thanks.

Yes, better late by 10 minutes than permanently late.

One question that puzzles me is how cars apparently break down and stop in lane 3 (or 4) on a motorway when traffic is moving freely.

Possibly the most likely causes of total failure on a modern vehicle involve the fuel pump or an electrical failure with little or no warning. I'd imagine mechanical failure is pretty rare and, as you say, would involve some warning signs. Other than, say, a cambelt.

We had a driveshaft splinter without any warning. luckily not on a motorway. It was on a "new to us" car on the way home from the garage where we purchased it - less than a mile from the pick up. We rejected the vehicle.

You and any passengers should get out of the vehicle as soon as possible, behind the nearside crash barrier, preferably some distance away from the barrier, i.e. at the top of an embankment, against the boundary fence but not near the carriageway, and about 100 yds ahead of your vehicle, so that it is between you and approaching traffic. Don't stay next to it or anywhere behind it, as the likelihood is that if it is hit, you might either be hit first or collected by it or another vehicle in the aftermath.

As soon as you are in a safe place, call 999. It is an emergency with risk to life.

I agree but some places so not have anything behind the crash barrier except a long drop.

 

[gus-lopez]

How do they know if the smart bit is in operation or not?

The fact that it exists is enough for them to say they won't come; whether in use or not.

 

[Deneb]

I agree but some places so not have anything behind the crash barrier except a long drop.

Yes, but you can either offer thousands of words of guidance that nobody wants to read, or hope that most people have enough common sense to understand the basic advice and reason for it, and adapt it to the circumstances they find themselves in.

If drivers can't assess situations that occur and modify their decision making processes accordingly, you have to ask whether they should be driving at all?

Getting out of and away from the vehicle, putting it between you and approaching traffic whilst being far enough away that it can't hit you if something collides with it, and keeping as far as possible from passing traffic are the important points. Exactly how you achieve that is always going to depend on circumstances at the time

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[tonyidle]

Exactly how you achieve that is always going to depend on circumstances at the time

And the weather. If an emergency response takes more than, say, 30 minutes then exposure becomes an issue in many parts of the country in Winter. Most drivers do not carry Winter gear in their cars - I don't. I do not understand how any right-thinking person could be involved in the decision to allow all-lane running. Life-threatening danger occurs from the moment the vehicles speed drops below, say, 40mph and continues until the people in the vehicle are clear of the motorway. How is a family of 2 adults and 2 children going to get to safety from a live lane? Even worse if someone elderly and infirm or a baby is involved.

 

[romany]

So next question I have a set of amber beacons from my post office telecom days thinking of fitting them to my camper van having experienced a blow out on M25 and a two hour wait for recovery any reason I shouldn't

 

[WESTY66]

So next question I have a set of amber beacons from my post office telecom days thinking of fitting them to my camper van having experienced a blow out on M25 and a two hour wait for recovery any reason I shouldn't

I was thinking exactly the same thing yesterday, some low profile ones on the back end maybe??

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[Deneb]

And the weather. If an emergency response takes more than, say, 30 minutes then exposure becomes an issue in many parts of the country in Winter. Most drivers do not carry Winter gear in their cars - I don't. I do not understand how any right-thinking person could be involved in the decision to allow all-lane running. Life-threatening danger occurs from the moment the vehicles speed drops below, say, 40mph and continues until the people in the vehicle are clear of the motorway. How is a family of 2 adults and 2 children going to get to safety from a live lane? Even worse if someone elderly and infirm or a baby is involved.

The advice is just as valid on a normal motorway with a hardshoulder. It is still the most dangerous place on the carriageway and I have attended and dealt with many fatal collisions involving stationary vehicles on the hardshoulder. Also lost a colleague and know of two others seriously injured whilst dealing with incidents on the hardshoulder as well as several police cars damaged and near misses too numerous to mention.

If you don't carry protective clothing etc. in your car in winter, perhaps you ought to reconsider your decision. Anything can happen and sods law dictates it normally happens at the most inconvenient time. It might not be you that breaks down, but a serious incident can leave you stuck on a motorway or any other road for several hours. You can still get very cold sitting and waiting.

 

[Deneb]

So next question I have a set of amber beacons from my post office telecom days thinking of fitting them to my camper van having experienced a blow out on M25 and a two hour wait for recovery any reason I shouldn't

I don't have the links to reference, but various studies have shown an effect where high intensity flashing lights can subconsciously attract drivers to veer towards the hazard. It has been considered as a viable explanation by my colleagues investigating several fatal collisions, when other explanations could be discounted.

It would also contravene the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations.

 

[Puddleduck]

And the weather. If an emergency response takes more than, say, 30 minutes then exposure becomes an issue in many parts of the country in Winter. Most drivers do not carry Winter gear in their cars - I don't. I do not understand how any right-thinking person could be involved in the decision to allow all-lane running. Life-threatening danger occurs from the moment the vehicles speed drops below, say, 40mph and continues until the people in the vehicle are clear of the motorway. How is a family of 2 adults and 2 children going to get to safety from a live lane? Even worse if someone elderly and infirm or a baby is involved.

We carry cold weather gear as living out in the wilds one never knows. Never needed it for ourselves but it has been useful when we've found people stranded. We also have a shovel and water plus a towel and old blankets in the back of the car in the winter. Actually the towel and blankets stay in all year round.

As far as getting children to safety I was often the only adult in the car and had three young children - I used to drive from South Wales to Tyneside every month (and back of course). We used to practice (on the drive and I made it a game) on getting out of the car fast. Luckily we never had to test it out. I always did the fluid and tyre checks before setting off and the car was serviced every 6 months.

I remember coming home after one trip and a car just stopped dead in the centre lane of the A1 near the Washington Services. The car doors opened and I'm not sure how many people jumped out. I pulled onto the hard shoulder and made the 999 call. I was thanked and told to continue with my journey (they took my details) as being on the hard shoulder would add to the danger (I agreed!!!) That was a terrifying situation and it happened over 30 years ago..... even thinking about it my heart rate has increased.

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[Gaston aires]

To be fair to the Highway Agencies, widening existing motorways is fraught with problems. Purchasing extra land and widening bridges are the main issues. The land issue can take years to resolve, probably involving a Public Inquiry.

One byproduct of Smart Motorways is the improved monitoring of traffic with variable speed signs.

I'm not saying that Smart Motorways are safer than traditional motorways but given the public demand for greater capacity in the system, it's not surprising the Highway Agencies have taken this route.

The alternative to Smart Motorways is years and years of congestion - take your pick.

Mind you, in 10 years time when Smart Motorways have reached their capacity and slowed to a crawl - what then ? They'll probably be turned into toll roads, to lessen demand

In ten years time some bright sparks will say, let’s unsmart the motorways like in the good old days. HS 2 will still not be finished, and I will be too old to care.
Phil upmetank

 

[nicholsong]

They say they are going to wait until the Highways Agency have towed or removed you to a refuge area, where they will then attend to assist as usual. As part of the problem revolves around motorists apparently being confused by signage and driving on hardshoulders during times when they are closed to traffic I assume if it is a section of smart motorway they won't differentiate.

Thanks for the answer.

Are the Highways Agency equipped with vehicles to remove an immobilised near 4t 7m MH?

 

[Gellyneck]

I've always understood that if you break down on a motorway (along with other major roads) you Get Out, Get Over, Get Away however the message from the Transport Minister in the Panorama program is definitely confusing.
If you break down on a Smart Motorway stay in your car unless in the nearside (smart) lane and you can get over the barrier however just after this he says always stay in your car (best to stay put)!

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[Deneb]

Thanks for the answer.

Are the Highways Agency equipped with vehicles to remove an immobilised near 4t 7m MH?

If it can't be emergency towed to a refuge by a Highways Agency patrol vehicle they can call a recovery vehicle from their contractors.

If you were immobilised in a live lane the AA wouldn't have been allowed to deal as a first response under any circumstances, even before their recent voluntary withdrawal. Motorways are classified as "special roads" in the UK, and the police and HA both have powers to remove vehicles that are stationary on both the hardshoulder and running lanes for safety reasons. The Motorway Regulations specify the limited circumstances in which vehicles are allowed to stop on a Motorway, e.g. breakdowns and accidents, and specify that they should be allowed to remain at rest only as long as is reasonably practical.

I don't know what criteria the HA currently apply. When I was traffic patrol we would allow any vehicle broken down on the hardshoulder a maximum of 2 hours to be removed, that being at the time the nationally agreed definition of a reasonable time. If a motorist had called their own breakdown organisation our control room would contract them to obtain an ETA, and if they said that they were unable to deal within the 2 hours a police contracted recovery operator would be used under legislative powers. Contract recovery operators would be used immediately for any vehicle immobilised in a live lane, or on the hardshoulder if unable to display hazard lights.

No different really to the approach on some continental motorways where only the approved contractor is allowed to remove you to a safe area, or where your breakdown operator of choice may be allowed to deal only after the emergency services have attended and assessed the situation.

This is normally all explained in the terms and conditions of your breakdown policy. For example my RAC policy excludes the cost of recovery where a different recovery operator has been requested by the emergency services and states that they will only provide their service in such circumstances after they have been instructed to do so by the emergency services.

 

[tonyidle]

We carry cold weather gear as living out in the wilds one never knows. Never needed it for ourselves but it has been useful when we've found people stranded. We also have a shovel and water plus a towel and old blankets in the back of the car in the winter. Actually the towel and blankets stay in all year round.

As far as getting children to safety I was often the only adult in the car and had three young children - I used to drive from South Wales to Tyneside every month (and back of course). We used to practice (on the drive and I made it a game) on getting out of the car fast. Luckily we never had to test it out. I always did the fluid and tyre checks before setting off and the car was serviced every 6 months.

I remember coming home after one trip and a car just stopped dead in the centre lane of the A1 near the Washington Services. The car doors opened and I'm not sure how many people jumped out. I pulled onto the hard shoulder and made the 999 call. I was thanked and told to continue with my journey (they took my details) as being on the hard shoulder would add to the danger (I agreed!!!) That was a terrifying situation and it happened over 30 years ago..... even thinking about it my heart rate has increased.

And Deneb. I cannot disagree with either of you. The motorhome has a full kit. My other car is a Smart and doesn't and couldn't have anything other than a couple of coats in it and it is used irregularly for longer motorway trips. I wasn't questioning the need to get out and off the hard shoulder - rather questioning whether, when deciding response times whether by Police, Highways Agency staff, or a recovery service, the weather and risk of exposure is considered. Many vehicles will be carrying a family and perhaps pet(s). Many will be setting off in Winter intending to visit relatives. In reality very few will be carrying survival gear even if they have the room to stow it. And, however foolish it may be, few would choose to leave a dog in the vehicle (more especially in hot weather). With some of the response times mentioned in this and other threads many travellers would be at serious risk if not collected within, say, 30 minutes.

I too used to live in a very rural location (2 miles West of Shap village). My commute was to Kendal and in snowy conditions I used the A6 (which was very often'closed' so I was the only person using it) because after twice using the M6 I decided the A6 was safer. I carried more than sufficient survival gear during those (pre-mobile phone) years!

 

[Deneb]

I wasn't questioning the need to get out and off the hard shoulder - rather questioning whether, when deciding response times whether by Police, Highways Agency staff, or a recovery service, the weather and risk of exposure is considered.

It will be, and from what I've seen from some recent videos, the HA Traffic Officers like to hand out thermal blankets to broken down motorists like confetti!

The problem being though, that all of these organisations operate with limited resources, and the times you might most need them is when they are stretched beyond their capability due to the sheer number of incidents caused by adverse weather or other conditions.

As we used to say, it's no good asking the control room to open another box of policemen when there are none left on the shelf

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[poppycamper]

Living in fairly rural area we very rarely come into contact with so called " smart motorways" but I have to be honest, the inside lane scares the bejesus out of me and the closest road I can relate to them are the now defunct, thankfully, (apart from the one I know still over SHAP) is the suicide lane in the middle of a 3 lane road..... Remember them!!!!!!

 

[tonyidle]

is the suicide lane in the middle of a 3 lane road

There are still a few about. I can't remember where but I've driven on quite a number of 3-lanes over the last few years. There's a section on the Kendal - Windermere road come to think of it.

 

[Larby]

There are still a few about. I can't remember where but I've driven on quite a number of 3-lanes over the last few years. There's a section on the Kendal - Windermere road come to think of it.

The A303

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[poppycamper]

Larby... that aint a suicide lane. Its a three lane with double whites on one lane so one lane going one way and two tuther... i am talking about three lanes with no double white so vehicles traveling in both direction could use middle lane....result head on bumps n many deaths.