Should I lubricate my wheel bolts

[Daffy64]

Well.... It's come in handy at last

The original copperslip was carcinogenic- it really did work though.

 

[Ian_H]

Hope it's not too much thread drift, what torque setting is recommended for ducato wheelnuts (mines a 2023 model)?

 

[Drexl]

From the manufacturers perspective the advice is no lubrication whatsoever - clean bolt threads and bolts torqued to the recommended value. I don't have any argument with this as this is the safest advice from the manufacturers.
So let's go 2 years down the line when the wheels maybe haven't been removed since leaving the factory or since last service removal. Mine are 16 inch steel wheels with M16 Grade 10.9 bolts as standard factory fit. When I tried to remove the bolts after 1 year I needed a 2 foot 1/2 inch drive breaker bar and an extra 2 foot scaffold tube to get them loose. They were mighty tight and each went with a mighty loud cracking sound when they released. The normal short wheel brace supplied with the vehicle would stand no chance of removing them. So if we would like to have the option to do a road side wheel change what do we do? By the way I don't have space for a breaker bar and scaffold tube in my van.

 

[Gingernuts]

No! Use plenty of wire brush use instead and a smear of copper grease around wheel hub.

this^^^^^^

 

[Drexl]

this^^^^^^

Ginger how is a wire brush going to get the bolts off???

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[Gingernuts]

Ginger how is a wire brush going to get the bolts off???

You wirebrush the studs every time you take the nuts off then wd 40 the nuts wait till their dry and put then back on! simples

 

[L' Hobo]

Ginger how is a wire brush going to get the bolts off???

By removing the crud and rust in the threads would be my answer if you had asked me.

EDIT: Just seen Gingernuts answer.

 

[meanders]

You wirebrush the studs every time you take the nuts off then wd 40 the nuts wait till their dry and put then back on! simples

Thereby lubricating them! No-one has suggested anything but smear of anything. WD40 leaves an oily residue!

 

[Wildbill]

No lubricant should be used on wheel studs or bolts tightened to correct torque create enough friction but checking after 50 miles and regular checks is recommended
If there is any rust traces around the studs check torque
For aluminium wheels check on regular basis
As above
WB

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

I've just read this in full. I found the statistics quite shocking re: wheels coming off. I've always told tyre fitters that they must not use pneumatic guns to tighten wheels they have changed and that they must use the right torque settings. In nearly every case over 55 years they have ignored me. Next time I need a wheel change I'm going to insist that I supervise the fitting. It'll be interesting to see how/if I survive...

I was regularly working in a large fleet workshop from the late 70’s, removed and fitted and removed many lorry wheels. Seen a fair number of wheels that the nuts had become slack, others that had progressed to the holes in the wheels had become elongated, and some that had detached, having lost the nuts and sheared studs. Most of the sheared studs were not caused by stretching or over-torque, but had failed by bending motion once nuts had released their clamping tension. In the 80’s spigot mounted wheels were becoming commonplace, as was the moved from tapered cone nuts (and wheels). The reason for the change was to improve wheel security. Torque wrenches became commonplace for tensioning wheel nuts, moving away from a simple long bar.
Our practice was lightly oiled threads, small impact gun to run them up, then torque them with the correct bar or latterly torque wrench.
In my experience, tight nuts don’t back off very often, under-tensioned nuts do, hence the need to check the torque. Over-torqued wheel nuts rarely caused the studs to fracture, but could crack the wheels, especially with cone tapered nuts. The were also a b@$tard to remove as we all know. That was where the 1” drive impact gun or 6’ long scaffold pole extension came into play.

No lubricant should be used on wheel studs or bolts tightened to correct torque create enough friction but checking after 50 miles and regular checks is recommended
If there is any rust traces around the studs check torque
For aluminium wheels check on regular basis
As above
WB

Lubrication of the fasteners is recommended, unless the manufacturer specifies otherwise, usually with light oil (engine oil). This is to ensure consistency in clamping load for a given torque. The fastening does not rely on friction, but on clamping of the wheel to the hub. That means faces must be clean, unpainted and free from corrosion.
The spigot is where the unwanted corrosion occurs which prevents removal of the wheels. The spigot purpose is to ‘centre’ the wheels on the hub and supplement the clamping force to support the vertical loads.

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[Widge]

I'll stick my neck out and say any lube will ruin your torque setting.

I am happy to be corrected if wrong, but surly it is the reverse, the torque setting is to control the pressure of the nut against the wheel, if the nut is already tight due to no lubrication, the pressure against the wheel will be reduced by the amount of pressure it takes to turn the nut on the stud.

 

[Daffy64]

Thereby lubricating them! No-one has suggested anything but smear of anything. WD40 leaves an oily residue!

It does but it dries out, engine oil or grease will be there forever.

 

[Daffy64]

I really can’t understand this thread, surely the top priority would be to keep the wheel on until you want to remove it.

I have seen many loose and lost wheels and it is always due to improper fitment, paint/grease between the wheel and hub

Grease between the wheel hub creates a film between the wheel and hub - that can create movement =loose.
Grease on the bolts means torques are exceeded = damaged bolts = insecure wheels = loose.

All people want is to put a wheel on, it stay there and then remove it easily - the answer is out there people.

Use GT85, WD40 or similar on the bolts - no need to let it dry or wipe it.
Clean the hub/wheel interface with a wire brush - remove any old grease
Lubricate the hole in the wheel with a smear of grease.
Refit, pull the wheel in with a bar, tighten bolts/nuts diagonally then torque diagonally - recheck the torque in an hour.
Periodically check the wheel bolts, not with a torque wrench but a short bar or ratchet - remember you’re not checking to see if they are tight but rather checking to see if they are loose so you don’t need to feel them move.

If done properly, the wheel will stay where it is as clamping force can be maintained.
The bolts will come out
The wheel will come off when the bolts are removed & not before - they may stick to the hub but you’ll only need to kick them to remove (I promise you won’t need a sledgehammer) (it’s the wheel centre that ‘welds’ the wheel on)

 

[Richard n Ann]

I am happy to be corrected if wrong, but surly it is the reverse, the torque setting is to control the pressure of the nut against the wheel, if the nut is already tight due to no lubrication, the pressure against the wheel will be reduced by the amount of pressure it takes to turn the nut on the stud.

Thinking about it, you're right

 

[Steve N Tracy]

Oil and grease are not compressible so if you have a film of grease between mating surfaces you have the issue that when the surfaces warm up the oil or grease thins and is thrown out by centrifugal force reducing the torque on the fixings.

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[meanders]

It does but it dries out, engine oil or grease will be there forever.

If it dried out as you put it there would be no residue and no rust protection being a key selling point of WD40. Yes the isoproponal component disappears but the mineral oil component does not unless eventually washed away.

 

[Jev88]

I am happy to be corrected if wrong, but surly it is the reverse, the torque setting is to control the pressure of the nut against the wheel, if the nut is already tight due to no lubrication, the pressure against the wheel will be reduced by the amount of pressure it takes to turn the nut on the stud.

My logic is a steel nut and bolt - steel on steel. Compared to steel, lube, steel - how can the torque be the same and stay in place?

Happy to be proved wrong, no offence will be taken

Now, putting lube on matching faces like the hub or back of brake pads to ease release of flat surface from flat surface is a good idea.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

My logic is a steel nut and bolt - steel on steel. Compared to steel, lube, steel - how can the torque be the same and stay in place?

Happy to be proved wrong, no offence will be taken

Now, putting lube on matching faces like the hub or back of brake pads to ease release of flat surface from flat surface is a good idea.

It is not the torque which prevents the fastening undoing through stress and load cycling, it is the clamping force. Damaged, corroded, dirty threads restrict the fastening from turning freely when being fastened. Lubrication of the threads reduces the possibility of there being unwanted drag of the threads when fastening, so they can be fastened to the correct/consistent torque. Remember that on the production line, everything is clean and new, unlike in the real world.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Fiat appear to be in the 'nothing on the bolts' team. From my 2023 quick guide:
View attachment 1100866

Nothing should be put on the bolts unless instructed to do so.

Any engineer worth his salt will tell you that as it alters torque settings.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Remember that on the production line, everything is clean and new, unlike in the real world.

And that is why you wire brush the threads

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[Silver-Fox]

Oil and grease are not compressible so if you have a film of grease between mating surfaces you have the issue that when the surfaces warm up the oil or grease thins and is thrown out by centrifugal force reducing the torque on the fixings.

That’s why I use ceteac it’s designed for using on brake pads.
They tend to get a bit warm

Copper slip can, if not used carefully, cause issues with abs sensors as well.

 

[landrovereditor90]

No. Never.

 

[gus-lopez]

The original copperslip was carcinogenic- it really did work though.

I have just thrown away my original tin from the late 70's & opened a new one ,which is from then also

 

[Clemmo]

As an Engineer who worked in the Automotive design industry all my working years I can categorically say that no threaded nut or bolts which has a specific Torque should have any type of lubrication.

No oil..of any type
No Grease.of any type

Just plain dry and clean and correctly torqued... it is really that simple.

Clemmo

 

[Ian_H]

As an Engineer who worked in the Automotive design industry all my working years I can categorically say that no threaded nut or bolts which has a specific Torque should have any type of lubrication.

No oil..of any type
No Grease.of any type

Just plain dry and clean and correctly torqued... it is really that simple.

Clemmo

And how do you stop alloy wheels sticking?

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[Jev88]

And how do you stop alloy wheels sticking?

Possibly on the flat part of the hub.

 

[Clemmo]

And how do you stop alloy wheels sticking?

The interface between alloy wheels and hub should be as clean as possible. Any grease, copper or otherwise can result in debris not allowing the mating faces to meet “flat”. You can have run-out resulting in tyre wear and geometry damage. Run -out can be so small it’s not detectable.
No manufacturers lubricate these mating faces ex factory.
Clean and dry is the way

 

[Ian_H]

No manufacturers lubricate these mating faces ex factory

And after a year or two they are stuck

 

[Daffy64]

If it dried out as you put it there would be no residue and no rust protection being a key selling point of WD40. Yes the isoproponal component disappears but the mineral oil component does not unless eventually washed away.

WD40 doesn't really have any rust protection, spray a piece of steel and leave it in the garden to find out how long it lasts.

The point I was making is that engine oils and greases have additives that mean they are hard wearing and provide continued protection, clean and lubricate your wheel bearings with WD40 and see how long they last.

As to others greasing the wheel flange, that’s bordering on stupidity, manufacturers don’t do it, reputable garages don’t do it and anyone that does is taking a risk for no good reason (before anyone says it helps get their wheel off, it doesn’t - it’s the grease in the spigot hole that prevents wheels seizing on the hub)

 

[Daffy64]

That’s why I use ceteac it’s designed for using on brake pads.
They tend to get a bit warm

Copper slip can, if not used carefully, cause issues with abs sensors as well.

Brake grease is designed to insulate the pad from the caliper or piston to damp the potential to squeal - it would be worse than copper slip.

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