New lithium upgrade & install - does this diagram look correct?

[DJL220]

Hi Funsters

Just updating the MH to be more Offgrid capable. After a visit to see Nigel and Roger last week I have less money in the wallet but lots of new kit to install.

Have been looking at various threads on here reference installs and think my rough diagram is correct.

List to install
Victron Mutliplus 2000va
2x 175w solar & 100/30 MPPT (new)
1 x 100w solar (old) & 75/15 MPPT
Victron XS
Shunt
Fogstar drift 300va
Existing battery master
Split Charge Relay (not on diagram) have found D+

50mm cable from battery to inverter
16mm cable on all other connections

MH Bailey Autograph 2018 not smart alternator.

Looking for the wisdom of Funster’s to steer me towards completion and ensure I have captured everything.

TIA

Darren

 

[WESTY66]

Hi Funsters

Just updating the MH to be more Offgrid capable. After a visit to see Nigel and Roger last week I have less money in the wallet but lots of new kit to install.

Have been looking at various threads on here reference installs and think my rough diagram is correct.

List to install
Victron Mutliplus 2000va
2x 175w solar & 100/30 MPPT (new)
1 x 100w solar (old) & 75/15 MPPT
Victron XS
Shunt
Fogstar drift 300va
Existing battery master
Split Charge Relay (not on diagram) have found D+

50mm cable from battery to inverter
16mm cable on all other connections

MH Bailey Autograph 2018 not smart alternator.

Looking for the wisdom of Funster’s to steer me towards completion and ensure I have captured everything.

TIA

DarrenView attachment 915044

Sorry I can’t help with any advice BUT Why is it in Chinese???


Good luck with your install, should have a good set up when it’s all up and running

 

[Raul]

For the orion xs on a 16mm - 60A (midi) fuse max
For the inv on 50mm a 250 or even a 200a fuse its fine. Here depends on type of fuse. If its a mega 200 tops if its ANL or class T then 250A.

 

[DBK]

I would put the inverter fuse close to the battery, not at the inverter end of the cable. It's not a huge point, but slightly safer.

 

[DJL220]

For the orion xs on a 16mm - 60A (midi) fuse max
For the inv on 50mm a 250 or even a 200a fuse its fine. Here depends on type of fuse. If its a mega 200 tops if its ANL or class T then 250A.

The fuses I brought with the system were 80A midi’s and 300A mega as advised by Roger and Nigel.

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[DJL220]

I would put the inverter fuse close to the battery, not at the inverter end of the cable. It's not a huge point, but slightly safer.

I have the 300A on the 50mm cable coming from the battery to the busbar and then onto the inverter. Wasn’t sure if I needed another one by the inverter?

 

[DJL220]

Sorry I can’t help with any advice BUT Why is it in Chinese???


Good luck with your install, should have a good set up when it’s all up and running

I was going to draw up properly, I knew the Funsters would get my drift

 

[DJL220]

One last question, what do I do with the old battery +/- terminals that go to the charger?

Route to the busbar
Switch off the charger trip switch
Remove the cables

Will any of the above effect the fridge on 12v whilst driving?

 

[autorouter]

The 300A fuse will protect the 50mm² cable which is capable of taking 300A without overheating. If that same size wire continues to the inverter then no further fuse is necessary on that wire. However I would consider going with Raul's recommended fuse size.

The wire from the busbar to the MPPT will certainly not be capable of 300A, so it will need a fuse as it leaves the busbar, maybe a 40A fuse if it's supposed to carry 30A.

The wire from the busbar to the DC-DC charger is similar, so it will also need a fuse as it leaves the busbar, maybe a 60A fuse as Raul recommended. It will also still need that 80A fuse at the Cab Battery end of the wire from the DC-DC charger - maybe change it to 60A to match the other 60A fuse.

 

[Lenny HB]

If it's any help I'm doing similar, and here is my sketch.

Roger now recommends using 25 mmsq cable for the XS.

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[Raul]

If it's any help I'm doing similar, and here is my sketch.

Roger now recommends using 25 mmsq cable for the XS.

View attachment 915200

View attachment 915201

On a 25mm2 it's very ok to put a 80A fuse. However, the XS is good for 50 amps IN, and whatever comes out after conversion depending on voltage, maybe a 45-47A.
Why a 80A fuse?
Also your two batteries fused at 200A each? Are you drawing 400A ?
Just curious

I like the pre charge resistor, I just use a pencil sharpened both ends and use the graphite to load the caps. You can also switch the SSC on bms to 3s to allow the caps to gill up.

 

[Lenny HB]

Why a 80A fuse?
Also your two batteries fused at 200A each? Are you drawing 400A ?
Just curious

Roger recommend 80 amp fuse on the XS he has found they often out perform there spec.
Was going to fit 150 amp fuses on the batteries but Roger suggested 200 amp and he had them in stock. The batteries are cabable of 200 amps continuous & 400 peak. If a battery was to fail and using one battery I've still got the option of plenty of power avalible. I'm Using 300 mm of 35 mm² cable from batteries the fuses & switch then 70 mm² from switch to distribution point.

 

[DJL220]

If it's any help I'm doing similar, and here is my sketch.

Roger now recommends using 25 mmsq cable for the XS.

View attachment 915200

View attachment 915201

Thanks Lenny
Have to say you sketch is a lot neater than mine
I was with Roger and Nigel a few days after your visit. Is the 25mmsq cable because your MH is a lot newer and likely to have a smart alternator?
Thanks for the multiplus diagram, that saves me asking that next!

 

[DJL220]

The 300A fuse will protect the 50mm² cable which is capable of taking 300A without overheating. If that same size wire continues to the inverter then no further fuse is necessary on that wire. However I would consider going with Raul's recommended fuse size.

The wire from the busbar to the MPPT will certainly not be capable of 300A, so it will need a fuse as it leaves the busbar, maybe a 40A fuse if it's supposed to carry 30A.

The wire from the busbar to the DC-DC charger is similar, so it will also need a fuse as it leaves the busbar, maybe a 60A fuse as Raul recommended. It will also still need that 80A fuse at the Cab Battery end of the wire from the DC-DC charger - maybe change it to 60A to match the other 60A fuse.

Thanks for this, will look at getting some more fuses ordered and will move the fuses holders location. Will add the fuses as everything leaves the busbar.
On reflection i think the fuses Roger and Nigel advised were for either side of the DC charger 80A and 300A from the battery.

 

[DJL220]

So back on the install after a week away.

Couple of questions regarding the current cables to the current leisure batteries.

Lenny HB Raul

1) set from current PDU which looks like the solar feed. I’m going to connect up to the +/- side of the busbars. currently protected by a 15a blade fuse. This is from the original solar panel with new victron MPPT 75/15. Can you confirm I’m correct in my thinking?

2) Set from the starter battery/alternator feed. Cable dia 3mm when stripped and 6.6mm not stripped. Assuming 12mmsq?

I know this is this too small diameter for the Orion XS. Can it be used or not? If not any ideas on what is the best way to run a new 16mmsq cable from the battery box at the front to the hab area? What to do with the current cable - remove or just terminate and isolate?
Bailey Autograph 2 2018 model year on a Pug chassis?
TIA
Darren

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[Lenny HB]

1) set from current PDU which looks like the solar feed. I’m going to connect up to the +/- side of the busbars. currently protected by a 15a blade fuse. This is from the original solar panel with new victron MPPT 75/15. Can you confirm I’m correct in my thinking?

I thought you were fitting a Victron 100/30 if so you will need a 40 amp fuse.

I know this is this too small diameter for the Orion XS. Can it be used or not? If not any ideas on what is the best way to run a new 16mmsq cable from the battery box at the front to the hab area? What to do with the current cable - remove or just terminate and isolate?
Bailey Autograph 2 2018 model year on a Pug chassis?

As I said earlier worth going to 25 mm sq cable. As you only have a single floor you will probably have to go under the floor along the chassis then into the battery box if you do, protect the cable with Convoluted trunking, you can get a split version you can put on after getting the cable roughly in position.
If you have a raised lounge floor you should be able to get the cable under there then under the seat base.

 

[DJL220]

I thought you were fitting a Victron 100/30 if so you will need a 40 amp fuse.

As I said earlier worth going to 25 mm sq cable. As you only have a single floor you will probably have to go under the floor along the chassis then into the battery box if you do, protect the cable with Convoluted trunking, you can get a split version you can put on after getting the cable roughly in position.
If you have a raised lounge floor you should be able to get the cable under there then under the seat base.

Hi Lenny

I have 2 MPPT chargers one for the old and one for the new solar.

So after connecting the solar one to the busbars nothing on the control panel. Have now connected the second set of leads and I have power!
New cable will need to be run, however the flooring is false in many areas and I think access maybe difficult without dissembling massive areas! Will have a look later or tomorrow if it ever stops raining !

 

[DJL220]

Need to install the split charger bypass relay to ensure I do not damage the alternator!

 

[Raul]

For the b2b, I would strongly recommend welding cable or marine thinned copper in flexi conduit under the van.
The automotive grade with pvc insulation is not as tuff or as good as the welding rubber insulation.
Get marine grade from 12v planet, or at least welding cable from Oxford welding supplies.
If your run from starter to b2b is less than 4m, you will get away with 16mm2 marine. If you exceed that, run 25 welding.

 

[Raul]

So back on the install after a week away.

Couple of questions regarding the current cables to the current leisure batteries.

Lenny HB Raul

1) set from current PDU which looks like the solar feed. I’m going to connect up to the +/- side of the busbars. currently protected by a 15a blade fuse. This is from the original solar panel with new victron MPPT 75/15. Can you confirm I’m correct in my thinking?

2) Set from the starter battery/alternator feed. Cable dia 3mm when stripped and 6.6mm not stripped. Assuming 12mmsq?

I know this is this too small diameter for the Orion XS. Can it be used or not? If not any ideas on what is the best way to run a new 16mmsq cable from the battery box at the front to the hab area? What to do with the current cable - remove or just terminate and isolate?
Bailey Autograph 2 2018 model year on a Pug chassis?
TIA
Darren

On no. 2
Do not use that for the b2b, 3mm diameter is about 6mm2. R2 x PI gives about 7mm2, take the space out from the strands and is a 6mm2.

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[DJL220]

For the b2b, I would strongly recommend welding cable or marine thinned copper in flexi conduit under the van.
The automotive grade with pvc insulation is not as tuff or as good as the welding rubber insulation.
Get marine grade from 12v planet, or at least welding cable from Oxford welding supplies.
If your run from starter to b2b is less than 4m, you will get away with 16mm2 marine. If you exceed that, run 25 welding.

So after spending many hours trying to route a cable I had a moment of clarity! It came just in time as I was about to look at routes underneath!

Easy to show in pictures
Wires going from Hab to Cab

Routed under the seats in a wire cradle that was already there!

And finally into the battery box

Pretty chuffed on the route, just need to connect up to the battery terminal now.

No space for a midi fuse, can I connect to the spare stud and add a fuse in a midi box?

 

[DJL220]

So the majority of the install is now completed and just need to adjust some settings (once I get my head around them all ) and tidy up some of the cable runs.

Last piece of the jigsaw is connecting the multiplus (MP) to the shore power and also to the sockets. On reading the manual I need to ground the chassis of the MP, can I run a cable to the negative busbar for this purpose and if so what size of cable is required?

This is my PDU on my bailey with double pole RCD and MCB’s. I understand I should fit a double pole RCBO for the sockets circuit, where to fit this?

1) Should this be connected on the incoming EHU, if so should an DP RCD be fitted alongside the RCBO?
2) Connect after going to the MP with DP RCD / RCBO
3) Connect a DP RCBO after the PDU to outgoing cable before the sockets / heater circuits?

Have I missed anything because I want to ensure safety when travelling in Europe and the UK

TIA

Darren

 

[Raul]

The PE from multiplus chassis needs connecting to PE earth on vehicle. The only place you have that, is the EHU coming in, and bonded to vehicle chassis. Thats where you connect/ bond to; not negative buss bar.

 

[Raul]

Power coming from EHU goes to multiplus AC in, via a DP breaker, or DP rcbo. Output of multiplus goes to all your van circuits: sockets and other AC loads, via DP rcbo.

 

[DJL220]

The PE from multiplus chassis needs connecting to PE earth on vehicle. The only place you have that, is the EHU coming in, and bonded to vehicle chassis. Thats where you connect/ bond to; not negative buss bar.

Raul - This is the schematic from Victorn's website and I wasn't sure I had read it correctly (hence asking on MH Fun)

It shows the case ground connected to the negative busbar?

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/MultiPlus-3KW-230VAC-12VDC-600Ah-Li-Lynx-Smart-BMS-&-distributors-Cerbo-GX-touch-generator-MPPT-Orion-Tr-Smarts.pdf

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[DJL220]

Power coming from EHU goes to multiplus AC in, via a DP breaker, or DP rcbo. Output of multiplus goes to all your van circuits: sockets and other AC loads, via DP rcbo.

Since found the schematic which shows your answer in a pictorial manner just missing the generator in my setup

Thanks for your help Raul

 

[Lenny HB]

Victron diagrams are confusing as they are for large boat installs.
Have a look at what I'm doing in Post#10.

 

[DJL220]

Victron diagrams are confusing as they are for large boat installs.
Have a look at what I'm doing in Post#10.

Hi Lenny
I have read your diagram many times, just confusing myself on how to make it work for my install
If I was removing the current Fuse box/PDU unit your diagram makes perfect sense.

I was trying to use the orange incoming mains cable on post #22 (to left of MP) to connect to breaker and then off to A/C in on MP. Then A/C out and off to current Fuse box etc via an RCBO - Can you see anyway for this to work?

 

[Raul]

Raul - This is the schematic from Victorn's website and I wasn't sure I had read it correctly (hence asking on MH Fun)

It shows the case ground connected to the negative busbar?

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/MultiPlus-3KW-230VAC-12VDC-600Ah-Li-Lynx-Smart-BMS-&-distributors-Cerbo-GX-touch-generator-MPPT-Orion-Tr-Smarts.pdf

View attachment 921313

The job of PE conductor is to carry the fault current back to source, on a path with least resistance.
In a stand alone mode that current will go back to multiplus (source), IF you activate the ground relay in settings: you have to do that.
In case of hook up, that fault current has to go back to EHU, as thats the source. The ground relay will open when detects EHU hook up.
So, why in the path of a fault current you want to have the DC bus bar, thats its job is to carry DC loads?
I suggested the better option, take the PE from multiplus chassis to you closest point of EHU PE entering the van. Of course on the same point entering, you will have a PE bonding to the van chassis as well, That way the direct path is NOT trough the DC bus, but they still bonded.

 

[DJL220]

By Jingo I think I may have worked it out Lenny HB

If I leave everything as it is currently is on the incoming EHU to the current breakers etc that's the first part of your diagram RCD + MCB.

I then take the feed from the current MCB which goes off to sockets and run this to AC In. The AC Out is then reconnected via a double pole RCBO to the sockets and I have completed the above? The only difference on my system is the frdige and sockets are on the same MCB ( I just wont run the fridge on 230v if not on EHU).

Can you confirm the above makes sense?

Thanks again and to you and Raul for helping me out so much on this install

Raul - I will look into " suggested the better option, take the PE from multiplus chassis to you closest point of EHU PE entering the van. Of course on the same point entering, you will have a PE bonding to the van chassis as well, That way the direct path is NOT trough the DC bus, but they still bonded." when i'm next in the MH

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