Won't start and I'm at the top of a mountain! (1 Viewer)

[icantremember]

Very pleased you got it going but I think "The fuel pump bit he cooked for me was the black cylindrical thing about 5" long by 1 1/2" across right at the top centre of the engine bay" is just the fuel filter not the pump.

 

[cj440]

I would park it on a downhill slope FPMSL
Seriously, park it so you can bump start it tomorrow.

 

[Snowbird]

Water in fuel filter frozen, blocking fuel from getting to injector pump. Get the fuel filter changed at the earliest oportunity.

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[motorhomelover]

Have you not started pushing yet?
you'll be there till 2014. If you don't get your finger out oh:

 

[Yorick]

How cold is it where you are ?

Just wondering as there must be many other diesel powered vehicles in the area ?

I thought deisel had a low freezing point ?

 

[motorhomelover]

Yes, started, but man it was not easy!

I begged a tow into the south facing car park early this morning from a digger, so the sun was on her all morning with the bonnet up. Then went skiing ....

Then returned at 1pm armed with all the appropriate items I could borrow or beg in my finest franglais.

Hooked up the jump leads from leisure to main battery, removed air filter after a hit of Wd40, then tried, and tried and tried, but no cigar she wouldn't catch.

Hooked up a battery booster, but no. Then a genny but no.

Finally a coach driver close by came over (Polish) who seemed to get straight on the case while I made the tea (true British answer to adversity). He had a small propane blow torch and he lightly torched the fuel pump I believe.

Then he squirted wd40, I turned the key and through clouds of engine smoke life returned in a very spluttery, rough as you like kind of way.

I've let the engine run for an hour and driven around the car Park, all seems fine but very rough.

So my questions to you very brilliant and helpful people:

1. I've wrapped the engine in a blanket, but am I going to have to go through this drama all over again tomorrow?

2. Have I caused any long term damage and what else can I possibly do to prevent this happening?

The final prognosis seems to be frozen diesel in the fuel pump, but that was translated from Polish to French into Devonian. The fuel pump bit he cooked for me was the black cylindrical thing about 5" long by 1 1/2" across right at the top centre of the engine bay.

Thank you everyone, I've learnt so much from so many of you.

Justin

He would have heated the intake manifold

Workers every time

Not rocket science oh:

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[Jph123]

Petrol in your diesel to stop freezing, really?!

One other point he made, (possibly lost in translation) was that I should add a pint of petrol to every full tank of diesel to avoid it freezing. Is this right, has anyone else heard of this, or was my "20 euro get yourself a beer" tip so insulting he wants to stitch me up?

But the logic would make sense, but that's got me into trouble many times before ....

Justin

 

[Snowbird]

He is correct. Up too 5 litres of petrol would be fine.

 

[Yorick]

How cold is it where you are ?

Just wondering as there must be many other diesel powered vehicles in the area ?

I thought deisel had a low freezing point ?

Aha, answered my own question


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel

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[JockandRita]

One other point he made, (possibly lost in translation) was that I should add a pint of petrol to every full tank of diesel to avoid it freezing. Is this right, has anyone else heard of this, or was my "20 euro get yourself a beer" tip so insulting he wants to stitch me up?

But the logic would make sense, but that's got me into trouble many times before ....

Justin

It's definitely advice I've heard given out before, but not sure about the ratio. It doesn't sound like too much, for a tankful of diesel, eg, 80 ltrs. Too much petrol though, and your diesel becomes unpredictable, and dangerous. Personally, I'd rather use paraffin.

Your older engine will probably be okay with that ratio, if paraffin isn't available. Modern HDI engines may be a very different matter altogether.

Glad to see that you got her going. :thumb:

Cheers,

Jock.

Edit.......Just seen Dave's post re up to 5 litres.

 

[Snowbird]

Next time you fuel up, put 5 litres of petrol in first, then top off with diesel. That will mix the petrol with the derv. Make sure you get that fuel filter changed. The water chrystalises into ice particles and blocks the filter.

 

[Larby]

[HI]Water in fuel filter frozen, blocking fuel from getting to injector pump[/HI]. Get the fuel filter changed at the earliest oportunity.

My money is on this being the main problem. But a damn good battery is a must. I am not planning any trips to cold places but someone setting out to ski may well take heed of changing their filter. My son has used hair spray and Lynx deodorant as a cold weather starter.
As an aside, a neighbour had their brakes freeze on, dragged locked wheel up the road but still wouldn't turn.
Ah ha, drum brakes so shoes frozen to drum. Threw a bucket of hot water over them and bingo, freed.

Glad you got it going in the end Justin, glad that Polish bus driver was well rewarded and you spent the best tenner ever by joining this forum.

By the way, there are some medical types on here to advise how to drive home with broken limbs ! Enjoy your skiing.
.

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[jonandshell]

You just need to make sure your diesel comes from a mountain filling station.

It isn't water causing the problem, its the summer grade diesel fuel waxing at the low temperatures.

No amount of faster cranking, towing, jump starting or pushing downhill will lake your fuel any better.

Use it up as fast as you can then put some good stuff in. Job done.

Please don't be confused by all the the above posts, just get good fuel, sod the cost!!!!!!:thumb:

 

[cj440]

Next time you fuel up, put 5 litres of petrol in first, then top off with diesel. That will mix the petrol with the derv. Make sure you get that fuel filter changed. The water chrystalises into ice particles and blocks the filter.

Thats maybe ok on an old smoker but never ever on anything modern high pressure common rail unless you like parting with vast sums of money.

 

[neilydun]

One other point he made, (possibly lost in translation) was that I should add a pint of petrol to every full tank of diesel to avoid it freezing. Is this right, has anyone else heard of this, or was my "20 euro get yourself a beer" tip so insulting he wants to stitch me up?

But the logic would make sense, but that's got me into trouble many times before ....

Justin

Glad it`s running !!
The petrol thins the derv out a bit, and, as your man say`s will help to stop it freezing.
Also helps to thin out veg oil, when I used to run on it.
I have used this method even in new common rail vehicles, with no problem.

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[Snowbird]

Thats maybe ok on an old smoker but never ever on anything modern high pressure common rail unless you like parting with vast sums of money.

But, he has stated which engine he has. Fiat 2.5 non turbo diesel. They hardly come more agricultural than that

 

[Snowbird]

You just need to make sure your diesel comes from a mountain filling station.

It isn't water causing the problem, its the summer grade diesel fuel waxing at the low temperatures.

No amount of faster cranking, towing, jump starting or pushing downhill will lake your fuel any better.

Use it up as fast as you can then put some good stuff in. Job done.

Please don't be confused by all the the above posts, just get good fuel, sod the cost!!!!!!:thumb:

And if that doesnt confuse you..........nothing will

 

[dogman]

In freezing conditions we would put 5-7 gallon of petrol or paraffin into our recovery truck fuel tanks, never had a problem, but that was back in the 70's-80's, things are different now and injection pressures are higher, petrol can lead to pre-ignition and cause damage to the injectors. Be guided by the engine manufacturer before adding anything to the fuel.
I think you now have some shopping to do before embarking on your next trip into the snowy wilderness, on your list you could put a generator, a battery charger or genny/charger combination, easy start, spanner(s), (to remove the battery and put somewhere warm), a heater you can place under the sump to keep the oil fluid, a tow rope in case all else fails.
Enjoy the rest of your holiday, keep warm.
Regards to you and yours:thumb:.
Cal

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[Jph123]

It was winter diesel in the tank.

Just wanted to add so all facts were out there ...

I had filled up at the bottom of the mountains at Super U Bourg st Maurice with winter diesel. I was pretty much between a quarter and the red line, so took on nearly a full tank. I'd say they were a fairly reliable supplier with most locals filling up there.

So should I add some petrol to the tank to survive the following week?

As somebody mentioned it is a Fiat 2.5 non turbo 1998 engine, commonly referred to as agricultural. But as I farm in Devon it does have its benefits .....

Enough said!

 

[dogman]

Should be OK to add petrol or paraffin to that or kerosene if you can get it.

 

[cj440]

A top tip for any journey would be to have a wee tool kit come spares box which should include spanners, screwdrivers, hose clips, cable ties, fuel filter & fuses.

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[neilydun]

Thats maybe ok on an old smoker but never ever on anything modern high pressure common rail unless you like parting with vast sums of money.

I bought a brand new Toyota Hilux d4d common rail. After about 6 months, I got fed up with the cost of diesel, and decided to run it on vegetable oil.
Everyone said, it would not work, would blow the engine, or ruin the fuel system.
It did n`t, and I did 10,000s of miles in it, without any problem. I also added petrol to the veg oil to thin it.
Yes I was careful, but it ran perfectly, and there are lots of others who tweak there common rail cars.
I`m not advising anyone to do this, i`m just saying, it can be done.

 

[cj440]

Well I work on them every day & suppose see all the horror stories. I certainly wouldnt even try it

 

[haganap]

Next time you fuel up, put 5 litres of petrol in first, then top off with diesel. That will mix the petrol with the derv. Make sure you get that fuel filter changed. The water chrystalises into ice particles and blocks the filter.

Ok just no one is confused.

Daves right in perhaps doing this in your old girl... But I would never ever do this with anything modern HDI type engines. It kills them.

I know someone else picked up on it but its really important.

If you were at super U at a mountain base then it sounds like your diesel was good enough. What you have to remember is to start the engine every day when it's warmest out there. If you were on an aire you would see loads if vans with their bonnets up during the day getting some heat in them.
A blanket is sadly not going to surfice, help yes but not cure.


Modern day waxing in modern vehicles is actually rare these days due to much better fuel quality even at very very low temps. I've sat in -30 with a worse windchill at 2300meters and had little problems where I've needed the help of the sun, but not to the extent you have had.

Glad you've started up anyway, so now you know what you have to do next time, plenty of amps, wd 40 and a good blow torch

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[Peter JohnsCross MH]

But as I farm in Devon it does have its benefits .....

Enough said!

Once you have put red diesel in it is very hard to get rid of it when tested by HMRC!!!!!

Dont put red diesel in a normal road vehicle, could be very expensive if caught

Peter

 

[jonandshell]

I wouldn't be too confident in your fuel.

We filled up at Carrefour in Moutiers last January, before the ascent to Val Thorens.
8 days in, waxed diesel! After heating the fuel filter with boiling water, we off pitched and topped up at Les Menuires, no more wax, easier starting from then on.
Waxing of the fuel causes a blockage at the fuel filter. Water is not the problem, it settles in the bottom of the filter bowl. The filter is designed to work in this way. The way wax blocks the filter is that it clogs the fabric of the filter. The filter has holes as fine as 2 or 3 microns. Wax will not pass through these fine pores. Only heating the filter to liquify the wax will clear the blockage.

You are there in early season, its not THAT cold! The filling station's tanks were probably full of old summer fuel.

If you are there for the season, it might be worth spending a 100 Euros and getting your engine oil replaced with a decent 5W30 or even 0W30 oil. It will greatly help with engine cranking performance.

 

[Philcott]

and here was me thinking, you just stuck your fuel in the van, drove up the mountain, went skiing, came back down the mountain - simples! Seems I was wrong!

Glad you're sorted!

P.S. never been skiiing, or even up a mountain in the cold and don't have much intention of starting either! Sun, sun and more sun is what I need!:thumb:

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[cranky]

Well glad to hear you are ok. I think we would all agree, that while we have all had a laugh or two there is nothing worse than a breakdown, especially in the back of nowhere! It also proves that you are never alone with this lot (sometimes even when you want to be)
Enjoy the rest of your trip and now you have the van running dont go and break something skiing
From a jealous (not of the breakdown but the location) Cranky
And I dont even like skiing

 

[jonandshell]

I'm envious of the skiing AND the breakdown!

Its a real manly demomstration of fronteership and tenacity getting a vehicle going in extreme conditions! The girls love it!

Sheriff and I did well for ourselves last year doing just the above! Dewaxing and jump starting a Transit minibus earned us beer tokens to spend in the VT Irish bar!:thumb:

 

[B-well]

All sorted then, sounds like best advise, ensure good winter fuel, plenty of Amps to turn engine over and park facing the sun with agood exit strategy if needed.
Enjoy the skiing.

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