Van starting problems suggestions please? (1 Viewer)

[Gromett]

Can you put a test light on the wire that feeds the fuel solenoid and the thermostart as in your photo when switching on in the morning? This should light up for starting a cold engine.
If this is lighting up, the next test is to see what the current draw is on the wire that connects to the thermostart ( the black one ). A clip on ammeter is ideal if you can get one to use. It should draw at least 5amps if it's working. The fuel solenoid should be unplugged so you know that the thermostart is taking the current.
If you cannot get an ammeter, flashing a live feed from the battery should show a small spark if it's working but please don't do this if you are not very clued up about electric currents and short circuits.
If these are working properly, the only thing left is lack of pressure in the fuel rail which will need specialist help to diagnose and repair.
I don't know where you are based but the best place I know for fuel injection specialists are TT Automotive in Loughborough. I have used many but these guys are great.

All those tests have been done. The relay is working and activating the solenoid. The question that remains is the valve on the solenoid opening and letting fuel through The next question is the flame start thingy glowing when diesel is allowed through.

The symptons are as follows. At 4C and below the van is nigh on impossible to start, up to 10C it takes quite a while to start. Above 10C is start ok but still a bit longer than normal. If the engine is warm it will start up on first turn no problems. It doesn't run rough and there are no other symptoms.

When it just refuses to start, the smallest squirt of easy start gets it going immediately without any hesitation at all.

I have had 3 different mechanics look at it. 2 of which did tests on solenoid and relay. Unfortunately being a fulltimer I move about a bit, and the one who is messing me around a bit at the moment is the only one where I have been local to for a period of time.

PS: I have certificates in Electrics and electronics so I am not a stranger to a multimeter

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

When its realy cold have you tried Easy Start, an ether based starter fuel, only problem is that engines can get addicted to it for some reason!

Peter

 

[Gromett]

When its realy cold have you tried Easy Start, an ether based starter fuel, only problem is that engines can get addicted to it for some reason!

Peter

Please read my previous post

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[DBK]

Have a look at post #10 onwards here:

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/fiat-ducato-problem-cold-start.46493/

The link below it on the next doesn't come with any pictures for me.

My suggestion would be to take your picture of the two suspect bits into a motor factor or somewhere they sell Fiat engine bits and try and get them to identify them and if the price isn't prohibitive, buy both.

 

[Geo]

I am staggered at how many mechanics have diagnosed the fault and not had the gumption to fix it
and seeing as you've had so many look im wondering who is messing who about
Sorry Karl if you are only interested in finding the Holy grail your beyond help
If the fix is £30 its £30
If its £300. spending thirty quid on it in the wrong place makes the fix £330

 

[jonandshell]

Compression test?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

I am staggered at how many mechanics have diagnosed the fault and not had the gumption to fix it
and seeing as you've had so many look im wondering who is messing who about
Sorry Karl if you are only interested in finding the Holy grail your beyond help
If the fix is £30 its £30
If its £300. spending thirty quid on it in the wrong place makes the fix £330

The first one was the MOT guy in Wales which was a day or two before I left. I couldn't hang around in Wales any more. The second one was called to get me started when I failed to get her started, this was also in a location where I was just leaving. I paid him to get me started and he ruled out a lot of stuff and also pointed to this device. The third one is the one messing me about... He is supposed to be getting the necessary info to test the device and the prices on the parts. Unfortunately he is 20 miles away from where I am based currently so I am only able to pop over once a month to chase him up. There is no other garage nearby to my location that doesn't have a bad reputation locally. The guy I am dealing with has a good reputation but is as busy as hell and keeps forgetting. He has done some routine tests such as previously mentioned and concurs it is the most likely cause of the issue. But he still hasn't got back to me with a price on this part.

If it is £300 I can live with that, you mentioned £700 in your previous posts for a professional diesel engineer. I was simply suggesting if this part is only £12-30 it is worth a punt to avoid paying £700 to a diesel engineer. The van is not worth £700 on it's own and is getting scrapped next year.

I have called and emailed 2 diesel specialists and neither has returned my call/email.

Because 3 different people have pointed to this device and the logic behind it makes sense, I am prepared to spend the £30 + labour to get it swapped out. If not I will just live with it till next year. If the part is £150 + labour I would probably want it testing before I swapped it. But for speed and convenience I am prepared to take a punt.

I am not after a holy grail. I was simply asking if you could tell me what the part was called and if you knew how much it was? And if it was something you could swap out for me. I didn't want to get into a debate/argument about it. It has been dragging on for too long for me now and this was just a final punt on a quick fix or I will suffer with it for another 12 months. I am sorry to have troubled you Geo

I am going to take @DBK 's advice. Seems like the only way I am going to get a price on this.

 

[Gromett]

Compression test?

It is not likely to be compression. It starts up perfectly ok in warmer weather and it starts in the coldest weather with a quick squirt of easy start. All three mechanics have said it is not likely to be a compression issue or a fuel issue. Two have said it doesn't appear to be an injector issue due to the symptoms. Literally everything points to preheating of the fuel on colder days. Because 3 have pointed to this device, and the logic adds up, I just want to know what the correct term for it is and how much this part costs.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[Gromett]

PS: This saga has been going on for a while now, and I haven't posted every detail and every contact I have had over it.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

All those tests have been done. The relay is working and activating the solenoid. The question that remains is the valve on the solenoid opening and letting fuel through The next question is the flame start thingy glowing when diesel is allowed through.

The symptons are as follows. At 4C and below the van is nigh on impossible to start, up to 10C it takes quite a while to start. Above 10C is start ok but still a bit longer than normal. If the engine is warm it will start up on first turn no problems. It doesn't run rough and there are no other symptoms.

When it just refuses to start, the smallest squirt of easy start gets it going immediately without any hesitation at all.

I have had 3 different mechanics look at it. 2 of which did tests on solenoid and relay. Unfortunately being a fulltimer I move about a bit, and the one who is messing me around a bit at the moment is the only one where I have been local to for a period of time.

PS: I have certificates in Electrics and electronics so I am not a stranger to a multimeter

You say the tests have been done and you understand the electrics so what was the result of the glow plug current draw? If it takes amps it must be working.
As for if fuel is getting through the solenoid take the pipe off the outlet and energise it to see if fuel comes out.
These tests are so simple that any mobile mechanic could have done them assuming they are not really a bricklayer etc
Everything you have said about it running good once started and also starting ok when hot means that the fuel pressure is not dropping, the injector pump and the injectors are all good.
The cold start is the only issue.
BYW DO NOT keep using easy start. It's for dumper trucks not motorhomes. Bad news as the pre ignition will ruin the compression.

 

[Geo]

Ah! I get it now you don't want to pay the rate for the experts
did you know you can buy peanuts by the sack now
I thought you wanted a fix
I will bow out now Karl and close this debate with Horses and Water
G

 

[JJ]

As you are planning to scrap the van next year, I suggest buying several cans of Easy Start to keep you going until then...

If you have any left over, you can use them to go "gassing" motorhomers in service station parking places.


JJ

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

Ah! I get it now you don't want to pay the rate for the experts
did you know you can buy peanuts by the sack now

That is not what I said. If the general mechanics can't fix it then I will move to the experts. I don't go straight to the brain surgeon when I have a headache I go to the GP first. If he rules out the obvious and refers me to a brain surgeon then fair enough. But when the GP's have all said the same thing it seems unnecessary to bother the brain surgeon.

Really lousy analogy I know.

When my clients approach me with a server issue, I will either fix it for them or refer them to a specialist. But I only refer them to a specialist once I have ruled out the cheaper and more obvious fixes first.

I just wanted to know what the damn part was called, a price for the part and how much it would cost to fit. Can't get that out of the local mechanic so I just thought I would ask you. . Anyway see you at Stratford Geo

 

[Gromett]

As you are planning to scrap the van next year, I suggest buying several cans of Easy Start to keep you going until then...

If you have any left over, you can use them to go "gassing" motorhomers in service station parking places.


JJ

After the emergency start by the mechanic, I bought a tin just in case. Never used it since and now the weather has warmed up it now starts ok It happened when I visited mum and stayed overnight on a cold night. I won't be staying overnight during cold weather anymore. I don't want to use the stuff unless I really really have to and avoid situations where it might be needed.

 

[olley]

Your scrapping it next year and you won't be staying anywhere cold before then, so what's the problem?

Ian

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

Your scrapping it next year and you won't be staying anywhere cold before then, so what's the problem?

Ian

I didn't say I wouldn't be staying anywhere cold. I said I won't be visiting my mum when it is cold

The problem is not serious. It is just embarrassing when it's cold and I am on a campsite when it take 2-3 minutes to start and then proceeds to release a massive amount of exhaust fumes which slowly drifts across the site choking everyone in sight. However on a campsite when I have hookup I can plug a charger into the battery to give it a bit of a boost before attempting to start and if I fail I can charge the battery up again before another attempt 2 hours later when it is warmer.

Mum's house has a 2 hour parking limit outside so I have to be gone by 10am before it has had chance to warm up and there is no hookup to give the battery a bit of a spritz.

This is not an essential repair but it will make my life a bit simpler and less embarrassing. Therefore worth a bit of a punt.

 

[tonyidle]

Another mechanic has had a look and he was supposed to get back to me, however it is now 3 months and he has been reminded and taken my details 3 times. so I am losing hope.

I was just wondering if @Geo wouldn't mind taking a look at this picture please.

The mechanic has said it is one of these two devices that are faulty.

I am just wondering what they are called. And what sort of price I am looking at for the parts and the labour to get them swapped out.

It is one of these two bits that is faulty that are connected by the yellow/red wire.

I would love to be able to drive to you to have them replace Geo. Just need a ballpark figure so I can get finances in place if it is an expensive job.

View attachment 109953

Nearest in the picture is a solenoid valve that allows fuel through to the other part that the wire connects to. This other part is a 'glow-plug' device that ignites the fuel. The burst of heat thus created in the inlet manifold has the same effect on the engine as a full set of glow-plugs. Your mechanic could well be correct. Before replacing anything check the integrity of the wiring - the visible wire would not normally have the crimps seen in the photo. The controller for all this is under the strange plastic shroud that hangs above the engine.

 

[Gromett]

Nearest in the picture is a solenoid valve that allows fuel through to the other part that the wire connects to. This other part is a 'glow-plug' device that ignites the fuel. The burst of heat thus created in the inlet manifold has the same effect on the engine as a full set of glow-plugs. Your mechanic could well be correct. Before replacing anything check the integrity of the wiring - the visible wire would not normally have the crimps seen in the photo. The controller for all this is under the strange plastic shroud that hangs above the engine.

I was aware of all this, the first mechanic explained it to me. The wiring was tested twice and the relay removed and tested separately. Do you know what the glow pluggy thing is properly called by any chance? I have heard thermostarter, flame starter and a couple of others but non give decent results on google. Hard to find something when you don't know what it is called

The wiring in the picture is obviously not original. The bent over negative terminal gave some cause for concern but it is making a good ground contact so was ruled out as the cause and other tests confirmed.

I just wish I could find out what it was called, a part number and a price.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[wigster]

As you are planning to scrap the van next year, I suggest buying several cans of Easy Start to keep you going until then...

On the same wavelength , My thoughts exactly.

 

[wigster]

Gromett if it is the couple of parts that need replacing , the ones in the photo in previous posts I and allot of the people on here could do it so could you . As you say you need to know the name of the parts. As a poster said before take a piccy into a spares place any decent indi motor factors would probably recognise and name and price parts.

 

[wigster]

As Geo says though as well the experienced mechs will bow out and seek specialists.If they are in an unknown area as in ive tried everything i know etc.
Its why specialists exist .

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[wigster]

Im about to go full time in an old hymer Gromett so i will deffo be asking you questions if thats ok . You are the expert on that sort of thing

 

[Gromett]

Im about to go full time in an old hymer Gromett so i will deffo be asking you questions if thats ok . You are the expert on that sort of thing

Not an expert but 7 years experienced now. Ask away there are a lot of fulltimers on here

 

[jonandshell]

Starts OK warm, but needs easy start when cold, despite the cold start heater working?

COMPRESSION TEST REQUIRED!

The problem with modern vehicle technicians is that they spend so much time fiddling with engine electronic control systems, they forget the fundamentals.
Modern engines are mechanically more reliable these days but they still work the same way!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

Could be low engine compression.. would need to be checked at a garage..

Starts OK warm, but needs easy start when cold, despite the cold start heater working?

COMPRESSION TEST REQUIRED!

The problem with modern vehicle technicians is that they spend so much time fiddling with engine electronic control systems, they forget the fundamentals.
Modern engines are mechanically more reliable these days but they still work the same way!

suggested this Oct 2015..

 

[mjltigger]

Any use

http://www.parts.loc8apart.co.uk/nav/auto-part/Fiat/Ducato/Glow-Plugs.php

 

[Scattycat]

I know you've probably checked or been advised to check them out, but a mate of mine was having what sounds like similar starting problems and discovered that one of the injectors needed tightening.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

No stock but this could be it.

The confusing bit is you say you have a 2003 2.8jtd but these are for the 2.5 and 2.8jtd?

 

[chaser]

On the same wavelength , My thoughts exactly.

And me, if you are scrapping it next year, easy start won't hurt it, stop worrying about it and give her a whiff , had tractors and vans that have started with it for years, some old tractors and diggers even had a little dish thing in the cab that you put it down so you didn't have to get the bonnet up, from new.

 

[Gromett]

Starts OK warm, but needs easy start when cold, despite the cold start heater working?

COMPRESSION TEST REQUIRED!

The cold start heater is not confirmed working. It is that part we suspect that is faulty. 2 of the mechanics have said it doesn't appear to be a compression issue.

I just want to get a price on this part and get it replaced. If no good, I will live with it.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}