Speed limits and weights (2 Viewers)

[gerry mcg]

Revenue weight is not the same as unladen weight. Revenue (in the sense of road tax) depends upon maximum permissible weight (or some other such words meaning the same thing); only speed limits rely upon unladen weight. In my V5 the revenue weight is 4500kg, which is the maximum permissible mass and mass in service as well.

Yip, understood

 

[hilldweller]

Why 3.05?

I can offer two possibilities, 3T and a bit for weighing accuracy, a simple typo and really they did mean 3.50T.

 

[CWH]

a simple typo

That was my thought too.....

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[peterc10]

I can offer two possibilities, 3T and a bit for weighing accuracy, a simple typo and really they did mean 3.50T.

Neither I suspect. Probably it was originally 3 ton (i.e. imperial tons), or 60cwt, which is the equivalent of 3,048 kg, which has been rounded up to 3,050kg or 3.05 tonne (i.e. metric tons).

 

[hilldweller]

Neither I suspect. Probably it was originally 3 ton (i.e. imperial tons), or 60cwt, which is the equivalent of 3,048 kg, which has been rounded up to 3,050kg or 3.05 tonne (i.e. metric tons).

Sh$t.

Peter 1 : Hilldweller 0

Past it.

Useless.

Waste of oxygen.

I'm going outside, I may be some time.

 

[peterc10]

Sorry about that Brian, but fret not. I was brought up on pounds and tons and feet and inches in school. Then when I went to uni to study civil engineering we were the first cohort to change fully to the ISO metric system. Blind leading the blind with the lecturers! Result is I have conversion figures hard wired in the brain.

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[2657]

I can offer two possibilities, 3T and a bit for weighing accuracy, a simple typo and really they did mean 3.50T.

1st possibility is correct, conversion from imperial to metric but **** knows why they still use that, the ULW as opposed to the max weight,not just the old imperial unit.

Are there any other pieces of legislation that still use imperial units?

 

[hilldweller]

Are there any other pieces of legislation that still use imperial units?

They changed the whole motorcycle test scheme because the EU dictated, as it does, 50km or 31 mph so instead of Anglicising it they spent millions on test centres to carry out the test at 31 mph off the highway.

 

[jezport]

Does your V5 show an entry for unladen weight? There isn't even a place to put that information on my V5. All I have are entries for revenue weight, max permissible mass and mass in service. None of those are unladen weight.
Edit - also weights for trailer

Mass in service is another name for unladen weight. My van is 3045kg

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[Lenny HB]

Mass in service is another name for unladen weight. My van is 3045kg

Incorrect, MIRO or Mass in service is the ex works unladen weight plus an allowance of 75kg for a driver, 20Lt of water, 1 x 11kg aluminium gas cylinder and 90% fuel. This is the current European standard.

Also if you look at your Certificate of Conformity you will see there is another entry "Technical MIRO" This is the MIRO plus any factory fitted extras.

 

[2657]

Mass in service is another name for unladen weight. My van is 3045kg

Don't think so as 'mass in service' includes certain allowances such as water, driver etc that are not included in unladen weight.....don't like the word mass in these contexts because what they are actually measuring is the force( weight ) exerted by a mass under the influence of an acceleration (gravity)

edit: too slow again......story of my life!

 

[maison]

The one thing you can never find is how to determine the "unladen" weight of a motorhome.

I thought it was only me!

How are we supposed to know the unladen weight?

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[PeteH]

Sorry about that Brian, but fret not. I was brought up on pounds and tons and feet and inches in school. Then when I went to uni to study civil engineering we were the first cohort to change fully to the ISO metric system. Blind leading the blind with the lecturers! Result is I have conversion figures hard wired in the brain.

"Snap" As too was I. Doing My Second Class Certificate. when it all went "SI". So we where working in both Metric and Imperial and having to take examinations too with questions which had BOTH in them!. Which did Nothing at all for Pass Rates!, where failure meant Paying again, and often incurring extra sea time before a Re-sit. By the Time I came to Do First Class (Chief Engineer) it was all SI and somewhat simpler.

Now I can Still do conversions in my head!. Which fascinates the grand-kids, especially the American ones, when I do a 3 way (SI to UK to US!).

As For (My) V5C it only gives the MGW as the "Revenue Weight" (Not MASS Either!). No other "weight" details at all. Although upgrading from 3500 to 3850 got me a lower VED category. (win )

 

[tonka]

I thought it was only me!

How are we supposed to know the unladen weight?

On a goods vehicle it's easy and used to (maybe still is) be painted on the nearside of the truck.
So empty thats the unladen weight..
With a Motorhome I can go get my motorhome weighed as it is with nothing inside but what about all the fittings ?
Does a fridge, oven and things like that have to come off the figure to class as unladen ??
Task of 2017, lets find out as this 3050kg figure involves use of outside lane of a motorway as well as speed limits.

found this..
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

 

[peterc10]

Mass in service is another name for unladen weight. My van is 3045kg

Incorrect, MIRO or Mass in service is the ex works unladen weight plus an allowance of 75kg for a driver, 20Lt of water, 1 x 11kg aluminium gas cylinder and 90% fuel. This is the current European standard.

Also if you look at your Certificate of Conformity you will see there is another entry "Technical MIRO" This is the MIRO plus any factory fitted extras.

Don't think so as 'mass in service' includes certain allowances such as water, driver etc that are not included in unladen weight.....don't like the word mass in these contexts because what they are actually measuring is the force( weight ) exerted by a mass under the influence of an acceleration (gravity)

edit: too slow again......story of my life!

And to confuse matters further the Mass in Service shown on my V5 is 4500kg, which is also shown as the revenue weight and the Max permissible mass!!!

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[Badknee]

On a goods vehicle it's easy and used to (maybe still is) be painted on the nearside of the truck.
So empty thats the unladen weight..
With a Motorhome I can go get my motorhome weighed as it is with nothing inside but what about all the fittings ?
Does a fridge, oven and things like that have to come off the figure to class as unladen ??
Task of 2017, lets find out as this 3050kg figure involves use of outside lane of a motorway as well as speed limits.

found this..
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

I looked this up and it's the empty Moho with half a tank of fuel and the driver. I had our Hobby weighed before we picked it up and it was 3600kgs.
When I bought bikes in the past there is a dry and a wet weight, wet being oils and fuel called mass.
When you buy a Moho with a mgw of 3500kgs that has to include all your belongings, any water, any fuel over half full and any passengers. That's why I personally think most Moho's are running overweight @3500kgs.

 

[2657]

I looked this up and it's the empty Moho with half a tank of fuel and the driver. I had our Hobby weighed before we picked it up and it was 3600kgs.
When I bought bikes in the past there is a dry and a wet weight, wet being oils and fuel called mass.
When you buy a Moho with a mgw of 3500kgs that has to include all your belongings, any water, any fuel over half full and any passengers. That's why I personally think most Moho's are running overweight @3500kgs.

Don't know exactly what you mean by that but:

Unladen weight is a largely theoretical and impractical weight that has no relevance apart from this outdated piece of legislation that applies only to motorhomes and would, in my opinion, be almost impossible to prove for most small motorhomes.

Mass in running order is again a theoretical weight that includes certain allowances such as a driver, some fuel,water and gas as explained in previous posts. This weight is largely for marketing purposes to give an indication of the likely carrying capacity of the vehicle when in use.

The MGW of a vehicle is the legally enforceable maximum weight of the vehicle when in use, if it weighs more than that regardless of what is in it, including driver and passengers, then you are breaking the law.

 

[Badknee]

Don't know exactly what you mean by that but:

Unladen weight is a largely theoretical and impractical weight that has no relevance apart from this outdated piece of legislation that applies only to motorhomes and would, in my opinion, be almost impossible to prove for most small motorhomes.

Mass in running order is again a theoretical weight that includes certain allowances such as a driver, some fuel,water and gas as explained in previous posts. This weight is largely for marketing purposes to give an indication of the likely carrying capacity of the vehicle when in use.

The MGW of a vehicle is the legally enforceable maximum weight of the vehicle when in use, if it weighs more than that regardless of what is in it, including driver and passengers, then you are breaking the law.

I meant what I said. The ulw is an empty Moho with half a tank of fuel and the driver. All fixtures and fittings intact, also called the tare weight in commercial vehicles. The only way to save weight was to run without a spare wheel which we did.

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[peterc10]

I meant what I said. The ulw is an empty Moho with half a tank of fuel and the driver. All fixtures and fittings intact, also called the tare weight in commercial vehicles. The only way to save weight was to run without a spare wheel which we did.

At some time when this issue was raised before in a thread I did find and post a UK government page which defined what unladen weight meant when referring to motorhome speed limits. I am not sure what it said (and I am not going to look for it again) but it definitely was not the definition you have given. From memory it did not include driver or fuel but did include something like all equipment intended to be permanently fixed into the vehicle when in use.

 

[TheCaller]

@Badknee See the link in @tonka 's post. That gives the official definition - or at least, a simplified version of it. No doubt the actual (& somewhat ancient) legislation it is drawn from is a little more convoluted, but more exact.

No fuel. No driver. Empty fresh & grey water tanks, but you'd have to dig deeper to see what the legislation says about water in the radiator. But fridge, oven etc all included if screwed down.

 

[Badknee]

@Badknee See the link in @tonka 's post. That gives the official definition - or at least, a simplified version of it. No doubt the actual (& somewhat ancient) legislation it is drawn from is a little more convoluted, but more exact.

No fuel. No driver. Empty fresh & grey water tanks, but you'd have to dig deeper to see what the legislation says about water in the radiator. But fridge, oven etc all included if screwed down.

No probs, seems there's more than one 'official' definition

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[GJH]

Yes, I think a lot of people will be. Why 3.05? That's what confused me, it seems an odd weight to change speed limits?
Hmm, I wonder if it's got a hundredweight equivalent?

It is 60 hundredweight but set at that value because it is 3 tons, which was the figure used in old money

 

[Larrynwin]

It is 60 hundredweight but set at that value because it is 3 tons, which was the figure used in old money

And close on a third of a chain long

 

[peterc10]

@Badknee See the link in @tonka 's post. That gives the official definition - or at least, a simplified version of it. No doubt the actual (& somewhat ancient) legislation it is drawn from is a little more convoluted, but more exact.

No fuel. No driver. Empty fresh & grey water tanks, but you'd have to dig deeper to see what the legislation says about water in the radiator. But fridge, oven etc all included if screwed down.

That's the one I was referring to.

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[TheCaller]

It all goes back to 1920.

Interestingly, if you read the final paragraph of that article, if the scheme proposed there had been adopted, you could exclude the fridge & the oven etc., because although permanently attached, they do not relate to the vehicle's use on the road.

 

[TheCaller]

That's the one I was referring to.

I guessed as much. It's the only current official definition I've seen so far & it is oversimplified - it's on a page relating to driving licence conditions rather than fundamentally to vehicle weights.

 

[peterc10]

I guessed as much. It's the only current official definition I've seen so far & it is oversimplified - it's on a page relating to driving licence conditions rather than fundamentally to vehicle weights.

If somebody knows the name of the legislation concerning speed limits I can see if I can find it in a database of legislation that I have access to.

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[tonka]

It all goes back to 1920.

Interestingly, if you read the final paragraph of that article, if the scheme proposed there had been adopted, you could exclude the fridge & the oven etc., because although permanently attached, they do not relate to the vehicle's use on the road.

It gets worse.. To be classed as a "motorcaravan" and that's what we are licensed for on the road you do need certain items fitted, one being cooking facility.. So if you have a cooker fitted then in an argument to establish Unladen weight you cant take that off.
You could deduct the fridge as thats not a requirement and an awning if fitted..

@Badknee Your method is MIRO. Mass in running order and something the manufacturers put together themselves.
ie Autotrail will state their MIRO but with full tank of water, Hymer from what i once read can state theirs with as little as 20ltrs in the tank. So it's not even standard between manufacturers.

If you were stopped for speeding and the van had a MIRO of say 3200 kg, Using the Unladen weight rule (not MIRO) then in theory you could deduct the driver and passenger, any water on board, things like awnings and bike racks etc.

MY HEAD HURTS !!!! Gonna have another IPA

 

[peterc10]

Well now, the speed limits for motorhomes (amongst many other vehicles) is set out in Section 6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. It can be found here, but beware it will make your head really hurt reading it!

This refers to unladen weight of more than 3.05 tonnes. And the speed limits the government quote only apply to motorhomes less than 12m long. Those longer than that can only do 60mph on a motorway (all other speed limits are the same) And guess what? It does not define "unladen weight", although it does define "maximum laden weight".

So, it looks like "unladen weight" will mean whatever the courts decide is the natural meaning of the words, unless it has already been decided by a court, in which case it will be what that court decided until a higher court decides differently.

 

[2657]

The last two posts in particular point out the utter stupidity of the legislation, using an out of date, virtually unenforceable weight limit when there is a very simple, easy to enforce alternative......use 3500k MGW as the cut off point.

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