Seat belt

Discussion in 'Tech/Mech General' started by Denbo, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. Denbo

    Denbo Read Only Funster

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    At the moment our motorhome has 6 seat belts 2 at the front and four in the middle, is it possible to add 2 in the u shaped lounge at the back

    Thanks Dennis :BigGrin:
     
  2. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    Yes is the short answer
    The problems you will face are actually finding someone to do it, although its not technically difficult, a good few folk think you need chassis anchors etc and are trying to restrain a Sherman Tank. this is not so, you would be suprised at just how littleis used in the way of seat belt mounts in many vehicles
    Also complying with current MoT PASS standards re the type of belt reqd for the seat type and possition you have in mind
    Notice I said "PASS" standards, as there are no construction standards to work to. and only minimal testing ie a quick pull on the belt is all that is reqd. is the belt is actually capable of restraining a person? is a question for the constructor not the tester
    Geo
    Have Fun HERE
    Not MoT guide use
    Inspection manual for Class 4 go to contents section 5 Seat belts, you will have trouble understanding it for sure
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
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  3. Denbo

    Denbo Read Only Funster

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    Seat belts

    Thanks Geo

    :BigGrin:
     
  4. Wildbill

    Wildbill Funster

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    thanks Geo I am fitting some in my van I will be fitting through the floor and bolting to the chases I that a bit over over engineering :thumb:
     
  5. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    I found some pics of a basic car"Saxo Rear"mounting points, thin bent tin and a captive nut with 3 or 4 spot welds
    Interestingly the impact force required for your body to rip out even this type of minimal mounting would kill you anyway:Doh:
    We build and race in motor sport so fitting saftey belts come second nature nothing more than a 17mm nut and bolt and a large spreading washer the other side of the floor pan is all we need
    Im sorry to say these belt mounting are tested to the extreme far to often in our sport and all without any belt mounting failures in over 30 + years and 100s of real life crash tests
    Crash pic was only last weekend, Richards car uses the same bolt and washer method for his belts he walked away with only his pride hurt:thumb:
    Geo
     

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  6. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    Geo I'm not disputing either the MOT requirements nor the motorsport application. what I find worrying is the fact that people would rely on a fixing into a plywood floor and expect a lightweight plywood seat not to disintegrate in a collision. the downwards forces applied by an average person in a collision are massive. in motorsport you have a specially designed bucket seat. in a car the frame is made of steel and bolted to the steel floor

    the minimum you see fitted by a manufacturer are a box section reinforcing frame to support the passenger and mounts through the floor and into a steel cross member on the chassis. dont forget, if you fit a safety device, you must consider the implications if its used and relied on in an accident. in effect you can expect to be legally liable if somebody gets injured whilst relying on a home made seatbelt arrangement. the vehicle insurer will never pay out if it wasnt designed and fitted by an engineer who has calculated strengths and loading requirements

    you have a legal obligation to notify your insurers if you structurally alter your vehicle by adding seat belted travelling seats. they have the right to refuse to insure or void insurance if not notified and agreed

    just a small insight into the real world implications
     
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  7. mentaliss

    mentaliss

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    Let me say here that I respect your position as an MOT Tester,etc and your absolutely right you can if you possess the imagination and skill fit seat belts just about anywhere within a motorhome/van ( front facing) however that's not the real issue, the issue here is that 'your' changing the spec' of the vehicle therefore you must inform your insurance company and from my experience will not accept such a change unless it has all the crash test certificates...for instance where rock & roll seat/bed is installed in a camper van conversion
     
  8. Geo

    Geo Trader - Funster

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    Why do you feel the need to attribute your thoughts to what i have actuallyposted:Doh:
    I am perfectly aware of the real world, I live and still work in it on a daily basis
    My post starts, with the difficulty a person might have finding someone to undertake such a modification, goes on to show that a real world Citroen mount is nothing more than a bit of bent tin
    And that the world is full of people who think they know more than they actually do by suggesting girders are a requirement for seat belt mounting, case proven thank you:RollEyes:

    The fact that you find it worrying comes as no surprise to me either

    Please highlight my suggestion that plywood floors or seats would do as mounts and also please highlight the box sections used in the first two pics of the Citroen manufactured and designed real world mounting points
    I am both disappointed and frustrated by your implied suggestion that i said anything other than what are demonstrable facts
    Geo
     
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  9. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    Hi Geo my post was directed in part to you as you seemed to imply that a simple bolt and washer arrangement, as fitted to Richard's seatbelt (possibly 5 point harness) would suffice in a collision.

    yes Citroen and many other manufacturers rely solely on a piece of bent tin to anchor seat belts, but those are welded to the monocoque chassis and crash testing has proved them adequate. No I am not suggesting "girders" are required to provide a suitable mounting point or seat frame.

    Do you as an automotive engineer actually recommend fitting a seatbelt to an unreinforced seat mounted into a plywood floor with a simple bolt and washer? That was the implication I read into what you posted, by explaining how weak some installations are, that actually pass MOT requirements.

    I wholeheartedly agree that finding anyone prepared to do the job professionally is highly unlikely. Its not just a matter of buying belts off ebay and bolting them in, is it?

    May just be how I read the post though, as maybe you were not implying what it seems:thumb:
     
  10. Trikeman

    Trikeman Read Only Funster

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    Hi, I don't know if this will help - our MoHo has seatbelts on the side facing seats in the U shaped lounge (as well as the front lounge). Looking through the paperwork they were specified at build. It consists of sub-frames (AlKo) fitted to/through the floor panels and onto the main body sub-frame.
    The sub-frames have approval plates on them (not too sure if that just means the sub-frames) but the paperwork states the mountings are also 'approved'.

    Regards,

    Trikeman. :Wink:
     
  11. Minxy Girl

    Minxy Girl Funster Life Member

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    Please, as a matter of urgency REMOVE the side facing seat belts so that NO ONE is tempted to use them! :Eeek: They can cause a hell of a lot of injuries if someone is using them in an accident! :Eek!:
     
  12. Minxy Girl

    Minxy Girl Funster Life Member

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    Geo: whilst you may NOT have intended to give the impression that it was 'simple' to do, that is what came across and I read it the same as others appear to have. :Smile:

    Dennis: regardless of whether you could physically put in the extra seatbelts, if you do it yourself or someone agrees to do it for you (very very unlikely!), you cannot ignore:

    Safety - there is NO strength in the rear wall of a motorhome so if you were rear-ended I hate to think what would happen to the passengers there, even in a low speed shunt. As for how the seat belts are secured to the vehicle, and the strength of the seating itself, that has been explained above.

    Weight - you intend, I assume, to carry 8 people and I would question whether you have the payload and/or axle capacity to be able to do so.

    Insurance - again this has been covered above.
     
  13. Trikeman

    Trikeman Read Only Funster

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    Hi Minx,
    yep - agree on the actual use issues.

    They are fitted but we don't use them as seatbelts per-se (as in to secure anyone). However, they are great as we use them under the seating to secure the awning, chairs and tool box etc - very good for that and we are confident that all that stuff would be reasonably secure should the worse happen.

    When I first saw them I thought, why? The one side is behind the toilet/shower room so wouldn't do much as on any impact the passenger would be through the 'wall'. The opposite side is behind the wardrobe. :Doh:
    However, maybe the original owner had some other 'objectives' as one can get handcuffs to fit on seatbelt brackets.
    :Eeek::Laughing:

    Regards,

    Trikeman.:Wink:
     
  14. Wildbill

    Wildbill Funster

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    all this scare mongering pisses me right off the guy ask can it be don
    get in touch with these guys
    I have talked to these today se link at botum regarding this mater if crash testing was the case there would be no classic cars left as they would have to be destroyed in the crash test.
    once fitted they can be inspected by an approved company of witch there are many that is all my insurance requires .

    but at the end of the day they must as a minimum comply with construction and use regulation once they have been fitted and approve you insurance will ad them as a modification
    and then just changing no of seat from 2 to 6 with DVLA and all they want is that they are cheeked at an approved MOT stanchion
    and at the end of the day any seat belt is beater than no seat belt

    http://www.seatbeltservice.co.uk/

    http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/seat.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
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  15. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    I am not scare mongering Bill, I am just putting a few facts out into the discussion. Personally I have previously fitted seatbelts in the rear of vans I have converted so have actually dealt with the issues, both safety and legal

    Yes you can fit seat belts if thats what you wish and the something is better than nothing argument has some merit. however not everyone that reads this forum has the first clue about engineering a safety frame for the seat or making a secure connection, sleeved through the floor to the chassis for the belt anchor points.

    what worries me is the idea that somebody may interpret the idea that you can just bolt seatbelts in over a weekend as a DIY job without considering the implications. Once youve seen a coachbuilt motorhome that has had a high energy impact (crash) then you would see how inherently weak the plywood floor and furniture is. my family mean so much to me that I will if required take an extra vehicle so that I have enough safe belts to carry everyone. each to their own though as advice only has a value if people are prepared to listen and understand

    i hope nobody takes this personally, as it is not meant as an insult to anyones intelligence or capabilities. just as i say the important facts of a much more complicated issue than most realise
     
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  16. Wildbill

    Wildbill Funster

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    they can cause serious injury's but surly die it the passenger was to retile around inside the van or even ejected out on to the road through the wind screen killing the driver or front seat passenger on the way
    then being flattened by a grate big artick passing in the other direction :Eeek:
    even at low speed you stand to die or very serious injury's if you fly forward even two feat if not restrained any restraint is beater than no restraint keep them in till you find a beater alternative
    :thumb:
     
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  17. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    seatbelts !!!.....woudn't want to be the passenger :RollEyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Wildbill

    Wildbill Funster

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    don't tink seat belt would help there :Eeek:
    but the wind out awning look in good nick where is it now I wonder?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  19. Minxy Girl

    Minxy Girl Funster Life Member

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    Not in this case bill ... using a side facing seatbelt can cause serious injuries and that is why there is no legal requirement to fit seatbelts to these type of seats. If you are thrown towards the front of a vehicle whilst in a sideways seating position with a seatbelt on it can cause serious internal and spinal injuries as we are not meant to bend that way - a seatbelt would hold the bottom of your trunk in place and allow the rest of you to bend to the side, whereas without a seatbelt your whole trunk would 'lay' to the side, still not ideal but certainly no where as bad as being 'bent' in a way you are not meant to be.

    http://www.cssginfo.co.uk/seat-belts
     
  20. Wildbill

    Wildbill Funster

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    every one has difrent vews on this but I still say till he has a nother alternative beater one seriously injured than two dead that watt would happen if there was no seat belt worn and the passenger hit the front seat passenger both of then die
     
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