Question about insurance towing a toad on an a-frame (1 Viewer)

pappajohn

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Not if towing is included in your policy but always best to check your policy or ring your insurer.
A car on an A frame is interpreted by DVSA as a trailer.
Bear in mind the car is only insured (usually) on a 3rd party basis while on tow.
Have an accident while towing and the car is technically uninsured for own damage.
 

pappajohn

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My last european mh and toad were both insured with NFU....no arguments between insurers that way.
And NFU covered the toad up to £1500, included in the moho insurance, for own damage the same as a regular trailer.
Caravans and livestock trailers excluded.

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Mine was only covered 3rd party by mhome insurer , so I checked with car insurer who confirmed when in tow comp insurance was still ok.
 

Charlie

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Mine was only covered 3rd party by mhome insurer , so I checked with car insurer who confirmed when in tow comp insurance was still ok.


Another added to the tie at stake and whip list..........:ROFLMAO:

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DuxDeluxe

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Another added to the tie at stake and whip list..........:ROFLMAO:
Oooooooh.........yes please......

My van and car are both insured with comfort and fully comp when being toaded.

Now where is that whipping post??
 

Minxy

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Not if towing is included in your policy but always best to check your policy or ring your insurer.
A car on an A frame is interpreted by DVSA as a trailer.
Bear in mind the car is only insured (usually) on a 3rd party basis while on tow.
Have an accident while towing and the car is technically uninsured for own damage.
I don't want to start a debate but just want to clarify one thing - the DVSA do not regard (interpret) it as a trailer ... it has never ever been 'tested' in law to see if it complies or not, what they appear to do is 'turn a blind eye' to the practice.

You must however inform your tow car's insurer especially as it will have had to be altered to accept the a-frame attachment anyway which, regardless of whether you ever tow it that way or not, a modification is something they need to be told of.
 

Geo

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I don't want to start a debate but just want to clarify one thing - the DVSA do not regard (interpret) it as a trailer ... it has never ever been 'tested' in law to see if it complies or not, what they appear to do is 'turn a blind eye' to the practice.

You must however inform your tow car's insurer especially as it will have had to be altered to accept the a-frame attachment anyway which, regardless of whether you ever tow it that way or not, a modification is something they need to be told of.
Fraid you just did.
DVSA have not been established long enough to declare their Tea breaks yet
But the Dept for Transport have, and they have declared an opinion in legislation ie Law , contrary to what you believeBroken Link Removed
Here we go again, happy as can be, all good friends in jolly good company :LOL:
 

Minxy

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Fraid you just did.
DVSA have not been established long enough to declare their Tea breaks yet
But the Dept for Transport have, and they have declared an opinion in legislation ie Law , contrary to what you believeBroken Link Removed
Here we go again, happy as can be, all good friends in jolly good company :LOL:
Quoted from your link:

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.
IMV the braking and lighting requirements are not met totally, however the pertinent point I was making was it has not been tested in law which even the above 'agrees' with!
 

Geo

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Ah! Your View
Can I quote you in future ;)

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Charlie

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I don't want to start a debate but just want to clarify one thing - the DVSA do not regard (interpret) it as a trailer ... it has never ever been 'tested' in law to see if it complies or not, what they appear to do is 'turn a blind eye' to the practice.

You must however inform your tow car's insurer especially as it will have had to be altered to accept the a-frame attachment anyway which, regardless of whether you ever tow it that way or not, a modification is something they need to be told of.

To enlarge on this slightly.

I checked with the insurers of both our MH and the Car.
They have NO problem whatsoever about the modifications to either of the two vehicles IE the fitting of a towing device to the front of the Toyota IQ and the towing device to the rear of the motor home.
Neither did they have a problem with one towing the other IE the MH towing the IQ.
Just make sure the insurance companies are aware of the modifications and what you are doing .

Further to this I checked with Toyota GB to enquire if fitting the Aframe kit to the Toyota IQ would in any way shape form or fashion endanger or invalidate the 5 year vehicle warranty. I was told absolutely not unless damage was caused by poor fitting of the towing frame/ device.

DVSA do not turn s blind eye. There is NO legislation to say that it is illegal to tow a vehicle in a flat manner IE with an A frame.

My daughter who is a solicitor tells me that unless I/we are braking the law we have nothing to fear. As I am not nor would I intentionally break the law then I will not worry.

I'm sure others will disagree but be assured I really genuinely and honestly don't give a monkeys. I have done everything possible to ensure what I'm doing is both safe and within the law.
 

DuxDeluxe

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To enlarge on this slightly.

I checked with the insurers of both our MH and the Car.
They have NO problem whatsoever about the modifications to either of the two vehicles IE the fitting of a towing device to the front of the Toyota IQ and the towing device to the rear of the motor home.
Neither did they have a problem with one towing the other IE the MH towing the IQ.
Just make sure the insurance companies are aware of the modifications and what you are doing .

Further to this I checked with Toyota GB to enquire if fitting the Aframe kit to the Toyota IQ would in any way shape form or fashion endanger or invalidate the 5 year vehicle warranty. I was told absolutely not unless damage was caused by poor fitting of the towing frame/ device.

DVSA do not turn s blind eye. There is NO legislation to say that it is illegal to tow a vehicle in a flat manner IE with an A frame.

My daughter who is a solicitor tells me that unless I/we are braking the law we have nothing to fear. As I am not nor would I intentionally break the law then I will not worry.

I'm sure others will disagree but be assured I really genuinely and honestly don't give a monkeys. I have done everything possible to ensure what I'm doing is both safe and within the law.

It is the difference between UK law and continental law....... Here, something is LEGAL unless proven otherwise.

Why don't we all just enjoy towing/toading/not towing/whatever and get on with life.
 

Charlie

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It is the difference between UK law and continental law....... Here, something is LEGAL unless proven otherwise.

Why don't we all just enjoy towing/toading/not towing/whatever and get on with life.

I see it from a slightly different angle.

Unless we are doing something illegal we are absolutely fine . If there is no legislation there by default cannot be a complaint.

I definitely agree with you on the point of we should all have respect and tolerance on not only this point but any other. It's not or should not be a case of who is right or wrong or point scoring. To those who don't like towing by A frame fine. But arguing about it solves nowt and for someone like me will make not a joy of difference anyway.

Live and let live that's what I say. If I see someone stuck I will help whether I approve of what that are doing or quite the contrary.

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Charlie

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Quoted from your link:

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.
IMV the braking and lighting requirements are not met totally, however the pertinent point I was making was it has not been tested in law which even the above 'agrees' with!


I thought you said you did not want to start another debate ?????

That's a bit like me saying I don't want a fight with somebody the poking them in the eye..............
 

DuxDeluxe

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I see it from a slightly different angle.

Unless we are doing something illegal we are absolutely fine . If there is no legislation there by default cannot be a complaint.

I definitely agree with you on the point of we should all have respect and tolerance on not only this point but any other. It's not or should not be a case of who is right or wrong or point scoring. To those who don't like towing by A frame fine. But arguing about it solves nowt and for someone like me will make not a joy of difference anyway.

Live and let live that's what I say. If I see someone stuck I will help whether I approve of what that are doing or quite the contrary.
I think we both said the same thing.......(y)
 

Charlie

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I think we both said the same thing.......(y)

We did ! I realised that mate !

My wording poor as it it usually is just said that if there is no legislation we are completely in the clear .

Put another way we can't break laws that do not exist. (y)
Or... They have to prove we've done something wrong. We don't have to prove we've done something right

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pappajohn

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I don't want to start a debate but just want to clarify one thing - the DVSA do not regard (interpret) it as a trailer ... it has never ever been 'tested' in law to see if it complies or not, what they appear to do is 'turn a blind eye' to the practice.

You must however inform your tow car's insurer especially as it will have had to be altered to accept the a-frame attachment anyway which, regardless of whether you ever tow it that way or not, a modification is something they need to be told of.
Sorry, you are wrong.....DVLA do interpret it as such in their opinion but DVLA dont make law...courts make law.
Like everyone else, they can only interpret the practice as there is no precedence in law to make a definative answer.

“A”- Frames
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g.
motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in
legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical
requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained
within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended
(C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

This is taken from .....

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies

Download the document PDF on the opening page....its all in there.
 
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Fraid you just did.
DVSA have not been established long enough to declare their Tea breaks yet
But the Dept for Transport have, and they have declared an opinion in legislation ie Law , contrary to what you believeBroken Link Removed
Here we go again, happy as can be, all good friends in jolly good company :LOL:

No they haven't. That isn't a 'law' as they make clear at the end.Just an opinion that it might comply.

" . However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts whichcan reach a definitive interpretation of the law "


It is the difference between UK law and continental law....... Here, something is LEGAL unless proven otherwise.

Why don't we all just enjoy towing/toading/not towing/whatever and get on with life.

Because it is a system that imposes undue & excessive strains on a body part that is meant for occasional use to remove a broken down vehicle to a place of safety.

Additionally as soon as you modify a part of the vehicle that is covered by the 'certificate of conformity' then it comes under the rules of illegal modifications under EU " anti tampering " legislation , often known as " anti-tuning" , whereby the part modified or replaced hasn't been passed by testing.
 
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It is the difference between UK law and continental law....... Here, something is LEGAL unless proven otherwise.

Why don't we all just enjoy towing/toading/not towing/whatever and get on with life.
Certainly the difference between the UK and Spain is if the local fuzz decide they don't like your set up, they will try and do you no matter what paperwork you have! As the Brummie bloke I met found out and left his car and frame in northern Spain. Whilst working out how to get it back without the local police threatening him again.

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Gorse Hill

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To enlarge on this slightly.

I checked with the insurers of both our MH and the Car.
They have NO problem whatsoever about the modifications to either of the two vehicles IE the fitting of a towing device to the front of the Toyota IQ and the towing device to the rear of the motor home.
Neither did they have a problem with one towing the other IE the MH towing the IQ.
Just make sure the insurance companies are aware of the modifications and what you are doing .

Further to this I checked with Toyota GB to enquire if fitting the Aframe kit to the Toyota IQ would in any way shape form or fashion endanger or invalidate the 5 year vehicle warranty. I was told absolutely not unless damage was caused by poor fitting of the towing frame/ device.

DVSA do not turn s blind eye. There is NO legislation to say that it is illegal to tow a vehicle in a flat manner IE with an A frame.

My daughter who is a solicitor tells me that unless I/we are braking the law we have nothing to fear. As I am not nor would I intentionally break the law then I will not worry.

I'm sure others will disagree but be assured I really genuinely and honestly don't give a monkeys. I have done everything possible to ensure what I'm doing is both safe and within the law.
Did any of the people you spoke too put it in writing
Might be needed if anything did go wrong(y)
 

Charlie

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Certainly the difference between the UK and Spain is if the local fuzz decide they don't like your set up, they will try and do you no matter what paperwork you have! As the Brummie bloke I met found out and left his car and frame in northern Spain. Whilst working out how to get it back without the local police threatening him again.

As Ive said in other threads. No way will we travel into Spain with an A frame. Not welcome dont go. Simple . (y)
 

Minxy

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I thought you said you did not want to start another debate ?????

That's a bit like me saying I don't want a fight with somebody the poking them in the eye..............
I did state that I didn't want to start a debate ... someone else decided to do that when they replied ... which then MADE it into a debate.

It has NOT been proven to be totally and unequivocally legal to tow in this way, it is just that no-one has been taken to court in the UK over doing so that I'm aware of ... it is a grey area still - the DVSA have only given their opinion it is NOT law.

I don't care if you tow like this or not, it's your choice Charlie, what I didn't want, and which was the reason for my first post, was for some newbies to take it 'as fact' that the DVSA have confirmed that it is TOTALLY LEGAL ... they have not and until it is taken to a court it never will be confirmed to be, one way or the other.

If you still want a poke in the eye I could still do that if you wish! :sneaky:
 

Charlie

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I did state that I didn't want to start a debate ... someone else decided to do that when they replied ... which then MADE it into a debate.

It has NOT been proven to be totally and unequivocally legal to tow in this way, it is just that no-one has been taken to court in the UK over doing so that I'm aware of ... it is a grey area still - the DVSA have only given their opinion it is NOT law.

I don't care if you tow like this or not, it's your choice Charlie, what I didn't want, and which was the reason for my first post, was for some newbies to take it 'as fact' that the DVSA have confirmed that it is TOTALLY LEGAL ... they have not and until it is taken to a court it never will be confirmed to be, one way or the other.

If you still want a poke with a sharp stick though I could probably find one to do the job! :sneaky:

Help me with something..... Firstly what is it that you really dislike about Aframes and those that use them ?

The words "I dont want to start a debate" will and have resulted in .............. Yes of course another debate. What ever else did you expect ?

But I tell you where Im at with it all.. Like other topics on this forum there is no real point in trying to have a measured and reasonable debate about it . Your vitriolic retort above tells me that.

In detailing and despite me having been involved in it for 30 years and having been a partner in an extremely well respected detailing company plus writing as a technical author for the biggest producer of detailing products in the world I still get told I haven't a clue . So I decline to comment on the basis its simply not worth the effort

So Towing with an A frame or A frame topics are just another area I will avoid and will never comment on again. What is the point ? I mean those who have never had one never used one or never will know far more than those who research the subject . Some cant even grasp that unless its Illegal to do something by default it must be legal. But there you go eh ? ...............................................

There is no need to shout.

Quote Jimmy Nail.

Some people can start a fight in an empty house.........:D:D:D

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DuxDeluxe

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Did any of the people you spoke too put it in writing
Might be needed if anything did go wrong(y)
Yes, it is written in the documents....... and specifically mentions A frames so if good enough for the insurers then ok with me.

Edit - it is on page 13 of 44 of the policy document
 
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Minxy

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Help me with something..... Firstly what is it that you really dislike about Aframes and those that use them ?

The words !I dont want to start a debate will and have resulted in .............. Yes of course another debate. What ever else did you expect ?

But I tell you where Im at with it all.. Like other topics on this forum there is no real point in trying to have a measured and reasonable debate about it . Your vitriolic retort above tells me that.
I actually don't have a problem with a-frames! I never have had!!!! In fact when we used to have a 1966 Bond Minicar (3-wheeler) we actually used to tow it on a pre-runner of an a-frame - basically a large towing bar that attached to the front wheel mounting/structure! For you to say I'm against them therefore is totally and utterly WRONG!

What I do NOT like, and is the point I was (yet again) trying to make, is that they have NOT been shown to be LEGAL ... people use them and no-one appears to have ever been prosecuted for doing so, but that does NOT make them legal! So the ONLY thing that I am pointing out really is that implying that it IS DEFINITELY LEGAL to use them is what is wrong ... nothing more nothing less.

@Charlie - please tell me where my comments could in any way be described as being a "vitriolic retort"!!! I would appreciate an answer to this as I strongly object to you stating this! I know you've been annoyed about your 'detailing' thread but that's NOT my fault ... I don't even recall taking part in it, and certainly NOT belittling your knowledge in any way if I did go on it! I feel therefore you have been extremely 'rude' to me!
 

DuxDeluxe

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I actually don't have a problem with a-frames! I never have had!!!! In fact when we used to have a 1966 Bond Minicar (3-wheeler) we actually used to tow it on a pre-runner of an a-frame - basically a large towing bar that attached to the front wheel mounting/structure! For you to say I'm against them therefore is totally and utterly WRONG!

What I do NOT like, and is the point I was (yet again) trying to make, is that they have NOT been shown to be LEGAL ... people use them and no-one appears to have ever been prosecuted for doing so, but that does NOT make them legal! So the ONLY thing that I am pointing out really is that implying that it IS DEFINITELY LEGAL to use them is what is wrong ... nothing more nothing less.

@Charlie - please tell me where my comments could in any way be described as being a "vitriolic retort"!!! I would appreciate an answer to this as I strongly object to you stating this! I know you've been annoyed about your 'detailing' thread but that's NOT my fault ... I don't even recall taking part in it, and certainly NOT belittling your knowledge in any way if I did go on it! I feel therefore you have been extremely 'rude' to me!
If I can make a point here........

....yes, it has not been tested in a court of law - that is correct - but one of the founding principles of English and Welsh law is that of precedent and if not proven to be illegal, it is by definition legal until proven otherwise. This point has been made a couple of times already in this thread and should not need repeating.

For reference......

Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" is a constitutional principle of English law—an essential freedom of the ordinary citizen. The converse principle—"everything which is not allowed is forbidden"—applies to public authorities, whose actions are limited to the powers explicitly granted to them by law.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_which_is_not_forbidden_is_allowed


So why don't we just leave it at that?

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