Proposal to restrict speed for over 3 tonn ULW

Discussion in 'Tech/Mech General' started by John & Joan, Mar 31, 2010.

  1. John & Joan

    John & Joan Funster

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    Heavy Goods Vehicle (HGV) and Passenger Carrying Vehicle (PCV) motorway speed limits:
    A Consultation Document (Department of Transport-2010-06).
    A Department of Transport (DfT) consultation process has started to make changes to speed limits and would restrict use of the outside lane on motorways for HGV in the ex. works unladen weight range of 3.5 to 7.5 ton and PCV vehicles determined by length.

    Consultation on Heavy Goods Vehicle and Passenger Carrying Vehicle motorway speed limits

    Section 4.6 of the DfT document clearly mentions dual purpose vehicles, and motorcaravans (motorhomes or campervans) exceeding 3050kg (3.05 tonnes) ex. works unladen weight are included in the scope of the changes.Section 4.2 of the DfT document summarises the changes that we would be required to make, the current speed restrictions and DfT proposed speed restrictions are shown in mph in the table below:

    Vehicle Class :Current motorway limit :proposed limit setting
    HGVs 3.5 - 7.5 tomes: 70 :60
    HGVs more than 7.5 tonnes: 60 (no change) :60 (no change)
    PCVs less than 12 m long: 70 : 65
    PCVs more than 12 m long : 60 : 65

    1.Do you agree that we should reduce the speed limit from 70mph to 60mph for HGVs not exceeding 7.5 tonnes (under item 5(1), column 3(a) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and, if not, why not?

    2.Do you agree that we should reduce the speed limit from 70mph to 65mph for PCVs not exceeding 12 metres, etc. (under item 1(i), column 3(a) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and, if not, why not?

    3.Do you agree that we should increase the speed limit from 60mph to 65mph for PCVs exceeding 12 metres, etc. (under item 1(i), column 3(a) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and, if not, why not?

    4.Do you agree with the draft Impact Assessment (at pagel3) - and/or can you help us to quantify more precisely the estimated costs and benefits?

    5.Do you consider that the proposed changes would have any other unintended implications which we have not considered in this consultation document and Impact Assessment and, if so, please identify what these implications may be and try to place a quantified value on them.

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/.../responses.pdf
    Q4: Are there any other types of vehicle that would be affected if the proposals go ahead?
    A4: Yes,
    Motor caravans; and dual purpose vehicles where they are adapted to carry more than 8 passengers or where they weigh more than 3.05 tonnes unladen.

    Q5: Why are these additional classes of vehicle included in the proposal?
    A5: Because they are very similar in size and performance to the main vehicle classes we are concerned with (HGVs and PCVs) – and because they are already subject to the same speed limits as these HGVs and PCVs now.

    I understand that they are proposing to restrict HGV and PSV (and over 3.05 tonnes ULW Motorhomes) from using the outside lane.

    Why are Motorhomes of 3.05 tonn ULW and not as the HGVs of 3.50 tonnes ULW being included, but no specific question about them is included in the consultation paper is worrying. We are obviously meant to take what is dictated to us. We are not HGV we are heavy motor cars. Motorhomes would be restricted to 60 while a coach built on the same chassis can do 65. Surely Motorhomes if they have to be restricted should be the same as PSVs. Vans with an ULW of between 3.05 and 3.50 Tonnes will still be allowed in the outside lane and be able to do 70mph

    This should mean they need to build more 3 lane sections on hills. They are however banning HGVs (7.5 tonnes) from the outside lane on two, 2 lane sections of the A1(M) in Durham. Time trial last year have shown their is no overall holdup of HGVs by doing this. Will this then be extended to 3.50 tonnes and Motorhomes now?

    This will in effect reduce most of our larger (3.05 tonnes ULW) motorhomes to 56 mph, as that is the intention of this regulation, but they have set the legal limit to 60 mph as they cannot guarantee speed limiters accuracy and to allow for downhill bursts of speed.

    No doubt motorways will from the implemation date in 2011 be policed by average speed cameras and any vehicle getting to a camera before it should, will get an automatic ticket.

    It is up to us to put in our thoughts on this. The Motor Caravanners' Club has asked for responses from it's membership. I have heard no comment or request yet from the Caravan Club or the Camping and Caravanning Club.

    Your thoughts please​
     
  2. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    Another nail in the coffin of common sense and an excellerant to the end of our hobby, rising fuel and insurance costs followed by speed restrictions limiting the distance travelled ring bells of alarm and despondancy. Having just sold the beast and replaced it with a sprinter based animal I was looking forward to some rapid journeys to Scotland and Ferry ports. Some bugger out there spotted that and brought in these proposed changes, so all my fault. Ah well back to a horse drawn barrel top and to hell with the government.
     
  3. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

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    Hi John and Joan

    I think you will find that we are going to have to accept this ruling sooner or later - as an EU induced measure.

    The speed limiters are already a requirement for motorhomes registered in Southern Ireland - as well as tachographs to the heavier RVs - so I am sure it will not take too long to find its way over here!

    There are rules restricting HGV from using German roads on Saturday afternoons and Sundays - bet that begins to filter over here as well!
     
  4. dazzer

    dazzer Read Only Funster

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    Surely the main point here is "GOODS Vehicles"

    A motorhome or RV is not in any way a goods vehicle except that it might be over the 3.5t weight barrier.
     
  5. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

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    I know it is a pain in the behind - but you do have to read these documents carefully otherwise you miss the important aprt:


    Section 4.6 of the DfT document clearly mentions dual purpose vehicles, and motorcaravans (motorhomes or campervans) exceeding 3050kg (3.05 tonnes) ex. works unladen weight are included in the scope of the changes. :shout:
     
  6. dazzer

    dazzer Read Only Funster

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    Must have had my "Man Eyes" on.:Doh:

    Bugger:cry:
     
  7. Larrynwin

    Larrynwin Funster

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    Yet more unnecessary restrictions from the superfluous costly white elephant called EUROPE.
    :Angry::Angry:
     
  8. matamoros

    matamoros Funster

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    Why should any vehicle be excluded from regulations which are there to increase road safety for all of us. A motorhome weighing over 3.5 tonnes is just as lethal as any other vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonnes.If speed limits and limiters are to be introduced for goods vehicles of a particular size, then all vehicles should be included.
     
  9. John & Joan

    John & Joan Funster

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    I am not objecting to vehicles of the same size wieght being included. Motorhomes of 3.05 tonns ULW are being included with HGVs of 3.5 tonnes ULW yet vans of 3.05 tonnes ULW are not being restricted to 60 or banned from the outside lane.

    I agree with your remark "A motorhome weighing over 3.5 tonnes is just as lethal as any other vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonnes" but why include motorhomes under that weight but exclude vans under 3.5 tonnes ULW.
     
  10. wireman

    wireman Read Only Funster

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    Hmmm, so if your MH is plated to 3.5 tonnes but its unladen weight is 3.10 tonnes then you are caught by this so many who have downplated bigger vans to get the 3.5 tonne bits are going to be caught by this. However if you are plated at 4 tonne but have a ul of 3.05 tonne you won't....somebody hasn't thought this through have they.....as per usual....

    ULW is what though...as it comes out of the factory with nothing in it at all? and I assume they will take the manufacturers figure? or can you unload your vehicle and get it weighed and then have it replated with a new ULW?
     
  11. matamoros

    matamoros Funster

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    I think some confusion is occurring on this issue, and many others over the years, because of the UK governments use of antiquated legislation and terms such as ‘heavy motor car’ based on the unladen weight(ULW) of vehicles as opposed to the gross vehicle weight(GVW) of a vehicle. To confuse things even more the powers that be have replaced the latter term with maximum authorised mass(MAM) in many cases.
    I stand to be corrected but as far as I am aware legislation has already been enacted relating to goods vehicles between 3.5 & 7.5 tonnes GVW and it appears that the review you mention seems to want to bring motorhomes into line with other vehicles.
    A commercial vehicle with a GVW of under 3.5 tonnes and ULW of over 3.05 tonnes would be of very limited commercial use.
    I would agree with your comments about PCV’s, this disparity has been a bone of contention for many years.
    Speed limiters are set at 56 mph(actually 90 kph) to comply with European goods vehicle legislation which brings about the ridiculous situation that goods vehicles are limited to 56mph by the limiter but can legally exceed this speed to 60mph, usually downhill
     
  12. matamoros

    matamoros Funster

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    ULW is what though...as it comes out of the factory with nothing in it at all? and I assume they will take the manufacturers figure? or can you unload your vehicle and get it weighed and then have it replated with a new ULW?


    Which is why most(or possibly all) european legislation is based on GVW
     
  13. Haaamster

    Haaamster Read Only Funster

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    'Bertie',my Fiat Ducato 1.9 TD will only go 65mph and thats with a good wind behind it :Rofl1:
     
  14. G4GMO

    G4GMO Read Only Funster

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    Ulw

    Why ULW? Why not MGW? My 4.6T Hymer has an ULW (I believe) of about 3.0T (has a payload of 1600Kg) and probably won't be included in that case? Doesn't make any sense to me.

    Personally I have no problem dropping to 60 max as I find that is the most comfortable max speed for the old girl anyway. Have done 70 but it's just a tad unnerving for the 15 year old. :Laughing:

    Appreciate all you people with newer machines that could cruise at 80 plus all day being a little teezy but to be honest I'd rather get there in one piece and without the drama of speed. Being of a slightly nervous disposition I find the speed limits on our roads plenty fast enough. It also means you have to stop and enjoy somewhere on the way if you can't make it in one days travel. :Smile:
     
  15. motorhomer

    motorhomer Read Only Funster

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    Speed limits for many years in the UK have been determined by ulw (amongst other things). - which by the way is defined as what it says, without people fuel or water.

    For motorhomes If the ULW is under 3050 limits are 30 60 70 70 (Towns, singel carriageway, dual carrieageway, motorway).

    Over 3050 they are 30 50 60 70.

    Maybe some people are unaware of this, but taking this into account the propsed changes are not as great as some people think.

    Personally I do not find the lower limits in some EU countries too big an issue. I drive slower for economy anyway.
     
  16. G4GMO

    G4GMO Read Only Funster

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    I have to say economy isn't often on my mind when I'm driving but self preservation is....as I've got older I'm finding driving has become a chore but when in the Hymer it is a pleasure. :Smile:
     
  17. Larrynwin

    Larrynwin Funster

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    I am quite happy to cruise at 55mph, when in our RV we are relaxing not racing.
    The big problem that you get on many journeys on dual carriageway is the road block lorries trying to overtake with the speed limiters that are supposed to make the roads safer.It only creates frustration and increases the risk of accidents. How long will it be before every vehicle has a speed limiter, 5 years ??? Thats freedom for you :Eeek::Eeek:
     
  18. Big Momma

    Big Momma Read Only Funster

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    I spend a lot of time driving my car for work and have to admit to occasionally having a 'heavy' right foot :Smile: However, I consider my Motor Home to be a leisure vehicle and drive accordingly. I always plan my trips so that if I cannot get to my final destination within a reasonable driving time and at a reasonable speed (usually 60-65mph) then I will schedule a stop. This way the whole holiday is a relaxing event so although my Motor Home is capable of doing up to 80mph comfortably (slipped to that on a Motorway a couple of times, not on purpose you understand) I generally stick to the more sedate speed of 60-65mph even on those lovely quieter French autoroutes :RollEyes:
     
  19. JeanLuc

    JeanLuc Funster

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    I think there is a great opportunity here to clarify the whole issue of which weight limit determines maximum allowed speed. Below is a copy of my response to the consultation sent by e-mail on 18th February. At that time, there was little reference to "motor caravans" as I remember it. I have to say that I cannot see any reference to the points I made in the present online "responses received" summary. We can only hope.

    Philip

    E-mail to DFT
    I reply as a private individual.

    I realise that most of your consultation may be aimed at commercial operators of HGVs, but wish to point out the position regarding those motorhomes that are registered as PHGVs since they have a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM), or maximum laden weight, in excess of 3.5 tonnes. Leisure use of Motorhomes is growing in the UK, mainly amongst more mature members of society, since their price puts motorhomes out of reach of many younger people. The most popular UK internet forum for owners now has over 40,000 members.

    Most owners are not interested in travelling at high speeds, being more concerned to enjoy their leisure travel whilst keeping fuel consumption to a minimum. For my own part, I seldom travel at 70 mph on a motorway, although on occasion I may do so. (My motorhome has a MAM of 3.8 tonnes.)

    However, it is quite intimidating to be sandwiched in a string of large HGVs (38 tonne Artics) all travelling at 55-60 mph and tending to allow little stopping distance between them - as is often the case. The proposed change in limits would prevent me from having the option of pulling out and overtaking them in order to find some 'clear space'. I would find this a problem.

    On a slightly different, but related point, it is good to see that the proposal is based on maximum laden weight or MAM. Regarding non motor-way roads, my understanding is that vehicles with an unladen weight in excess of 3,050 kg are limited currently to 50 mph for single, and 60 mph for dual carriage-way roads. The concept of unladen weight is of little use to a motorhome owner. I would not know where to find that information for my own vehicle. Motorhomes are normally classified with two weights: Mass in Running Order (MIRO) and MAM. MIRO is heavier than ULW since it includes allowances for fuel, fresh habitation water, LPG for cooking etc, electric hook-up cable, in addition to the normal driver, spare wheel and basic tools.
    Surely, it would make more sense to base all speed limits on MAM since that is an unequivocal number stated on the weight plate, and which reflects the safety characteristics of the fully-loaded vehicle?

    I hope these comments are of some use. Please feel free to contact me if any clarification is required.
     
  20. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

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    A Good Post, JeanLuc

    Unfortunately it contains a great deal of common sense - something which seems to be sadly lacking from most of our Authorities today - and for that reason, although I hope it gets through to the Authorities, I have my doubts that it will. :Angry:
     
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