Proposal to restrict speed for over 3 tonn ULW (1 Viewer)

[John & Joan]

Heavy Goods Vehicle (HGV) and Passenger Carrying Vehicle (PCV) motorway speed limits:
A Consultation Document (Department of Transport-2010-06).
A Department of Transport (DfT) consultation process has started to make changes to speed limits and would restrict use of the outside lane on motorways for HGV in the ex. works unladen weight range of 3.5 to 7.5 ton and PCV vehicles determined by length.

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Section 4.6 of the DfT document clearly mentions dual purpose vehicles, and motorcaravans (motorhomes or campervans) exceeding 3050kg (3.05 tonnes) ex. works unladen weight are included in the scope of the changes.Section 4.2 of the DfT document summarises the changes that we would be required to make, the current speed restrictions and DfT proposed speed restrictions are shown in mph in the table below:

Vehicle Class :Current motorway limit roposed limit setting
HGVs 3.5 - 7.5 tomes: 70 :60
HGVs more than 7.5 tonnes: 60 (no change) :60 (no change)
PCVs less than 12 m long: 70 : 65
PCVs more than 12 m long : 60 : 65

1.Do you agree that we should reduce the speed limit from 70mph to 60mph for HGVs not exceeding 7.5 tonnes (under item 5(1), column 3(a) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and, if not, why not?

2.Do you agree that we should reduce the speed limit from 70mph to 65mph for PCVs not exceeding 12 metres, etc. (under item 1(i), column 3(a) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and, if not, why not?

3.Do you agree that we should increase the speed limit from 60mph to 65mph for PCVs exceeding 12 metres, etc. (under item 1(i), column 3(a) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and, if not, why not?

4.Do you agree with the draft Impact Assessment (at pagel3) - and/or can you help us to quantify more precisely the estimated costs and benefits?

5.Do you consider that the proposed changes would have any other unintended implications which we have not considered in this consultation document and Impact Assessment and, if so, please identify what these implications may be and try to place a quantified value on them.

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Q4: Are there any other types of vehicle that would be affected if the proposals go ahead?
A4: Yes,
Motor caravans; and dual purpose vehicles where they are adapted to carry more than 8 passengers or where they weigh more than 3.05 tonnes unladen.

Q5: Why are these additional classes of vehicle included in the proposal?
A5: Because they are very similar in size and performance to the main vehicle classes we are concerned with (HGVs and PCVs) – and because they are already subject to the same speed limits as these HGVs and PCVs now.

I understand that they are proposing to restrict HGV and PSV (and over 3.05 tonnes ULW Motorhomes) from using the outside lane.

Why are Motorhomes of 3.05 tonn ULW and not as the HGVs of 3.50 tonnes ULW being included, but no specific question about them is included in the consultation paper is worrying. We are obviously meant to take what is dictated to us. We are not HGV we are heavy motor cars. Motorhomes would be restricted to 60 while a coach built on the same chassis can do 65. Surely Motorhomes if they have to be restricted should be the same as PSVs. Vans with an ULW of between 3.05 and 3.50 Tonnes will still be allowed in the outside lane and be able to do 70mph

This should mean they need to build more 3 lane sections on hills. They are however banning HGVs (7.5 tonnes) from the outside lane on two, 2 lane sections of the A1(M) in Durham. Time trial last year have shown their is no overall holdup of HGVs by doing this. Will this then be extended to 3.50 tonnes and Motorhomes now?

This will in effect reduce most of our larger (3.05 tonnes ULW) motorhomes to 56 mph, as that is the intention of this regulation, but they have set the legal limit to 60 mph as they cannot guarantee speed limiters accuracy and to allow for downhill bursts of speed.

No doubt motorways will from the implemation date in 2011 be policed by average speed cameras and any vehicle getting to a camera before it should, will get an automatic ticket.

It is up to us to put in our thoughts on this. The Motor Caravanners' Club has asked for responses from it's membership. I have heard no comment or request yet from the Caravan Club or the Camping and Caravanning Club.

Your thoughts please​

 

[Wildman]

Another nail in the coffin of common sense and an excellerant to the end of our hobby, rising fuel and insurance costs followed by speed restrictions limiting the distance travelled ring bells of alarm and despondancy. Having just sold the beast and replaced it with a sprinter based animal I was looking forward to some rapid journeys to Scotland and Ferry ports. Some bugger out there spotted that and brought in these proposed changes, so all my fault. Ah well back to a horse drawn barrel top and to hell with the government.

 

[moandick]

Hi John and Joan

I think you will find that we are going to have to accept this ruling sooner or later - as an EU induced measure.

The speed limiters are already a requirement for motorhomes registered in Southern Ireland - as well as tachographs to the heavier RVs - so I am sure it will not take too long to find its way over here!

There are rules restricting HGV from using German roads on Saturday afternoons and Sundays - bet that begins to filter over here as well!

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[dazzer]

Surely the main point here is "GOODS Vehicles"

A motorhome or RV is not in any way a goods vehicle except that it might be over the 3.5t weight barrier.

 

[moandick]

Surely the main point here is "GOODS Vehicles"
.

I know it is a pain in the behind - but you do have to read these documents carefully otherwise you miss the important aprt:


Section 4.6 of the DfT document clearly mentions dual purpose vehicles, and motorcaravans (motorhomes or campervans) exceeding 3050kg (3.05 tonnes) ex. works unladen weight are included in the scope of the changes. :shout:

 

[dazzer]

I know it is a pain in the behind - but you do have to read these documents carefully otherwise you miss the important aprt:


Section 4.6 of the DfT document clearly mentions dual purpose vehicles, and motorcaravans (motorhomes or campervans) exceeding 3050kg (3.05 tonnes) ex. works unladen weight are included in the scope of the changes. :shout:

Must have had my "Man Eyes" on.oh:

Bugger

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[Larrynwin]

Yet more unnecessary restrictions from the superfluous costly white elephant called EUROPE.
:Angry::Angry:

 

[2657]

Why should any vehicle be excluded from regulations which are there to increase road safety for all of us. A motorhome weighing over 3.5 tonnes is just as lethal as any other vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonnes.If speed limits and limiters are to be introduced for goods vehicles of a particular size, then all vehicles should be included.

 

[John & Joan]

Why should any vehicle be excluded from regulations which are there to increase road safety for all of us. A motorhome weighing over 3.5 tonnes is just as lethal as any other vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonnes.If speed limits and limiters are to be introduced for goods vehicles of a particular size, then all vehicles should be included.

I am not objecting to vehicles of the same size wieght being included. Motorhomes of 3.05 tonns ULW are being included with HGVs of 3.5 tonnes ULW yet vans of 3.05 tonnes ULW are not being restricted to 60 or banned from the outside lane.

I agree with your remark "A motorhome weighing over 3.5 tonnes is just as lethal as any other vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonnes" but why include motorhomes under that weight but exclude vans under 3.5 tonnes ULW.

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[wireman]

Hmmm, so if your MH is plated to 3.5 tonnes but its unladen weight is 3.10 tonnes then you are caught by this so many who have downplated bigger vans to get the 3.5 tonne bits are going to be caught by this. However if you are plated at 4 tonne but have a ul of 3.05 tonne you won't....somebody hasn't thought this through have they.....as per usual....

ULW is what though...as it comes out of the factory with nothing in it at all? and I assume they will take the manufacturers figure? or can you unload your vehicle and get it weighed and then have it replated with a new ULW?

 

[2657]

I am not objecting to vehicles of the same size wieght being included. Motorhomes of 3.05 tonns ULW are being included with HGVs of 3.5 tonnes ULW yet vans of 3.05 tonnes ULW are not being restricted to 60 or banned from the outside lane.

I agree with your remark "A motorhome weighing over 3.5 tonnes is just as lethal as any other vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonnes" but why include motorhomes under that weight but exclude vans under 3.5 tonnes ULW.

I think some confusion is occurring on this issue, and many others over the years, because of the UK governments use of antiquated legislation and terms such as ‘heavy motor car’ based on the unladen weight(ULW) of vehicles as opposed to the gross vehicle weight(GVW) of a vehicle. To confuse things even more the powers that be have replaced the latter term with maximum authorised mass(MAM) in many cases.
I stand to be corrected but as far as I am aware legislation has already been enacted relating to goods vehicles between 3.5 & 7.5 tonnes GVW and it appears that the review you mention seems to want to bring motorhomes into line with other vehicles.
A commercial vehicle with a GVW of under 3.5 tonnes and ULW of over 3.05 tonnes would be of very limited commercial use.
I would agree with your comments about PCV’s, this disparity has been a bone of contention for many years.
Speed limiters are set at 56 mph(actually 90 kph) to comply with European goods vehicle legislation which brings about the ridiculous situation that goods vehicles are limited to 56mph by the limiter but can legally exceed this speed to 60mph, usually downhill

 

[2657]

ULW is what though...as it comes out of the factory with nothing in it at all? and I assume they will take the manufacturers figure? or can you unload your vehicle and get it weighed and then have it replated with a new ULW?


Which is why most(or possibly all) european legislation is based on GVW

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[Haaamster]

'Bertie',my Fiat Ducato 1.9 TD will only go 65mph and thats with a good wind behind it

 

[G4GMO]

Ulw

Why ULW? Why not MGW? My 4.6T Hymer has an ULW (I believe) of about 3.0T (has a payload of 1600Kg) and probably won't be included in that case? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Personally I have no problem dropping to 60 max as I find that is the most comfortable max speed for the old girl anyway. Have done 70 but it's just a tad unnerving for the 15 year old.

Appreciate all you people with newer machines that could cruise at 80 plus all day being a little teezy but to be honest I'd rather get there in one piece and without the drama of speed. Being of a slightly nervous disposition I find the speed limits on our roads plenty fast enough. It also means you have to stop and enjoy somewhere on the way if you can't make it in one days travel.

 

[motorhomer]

Speed limits for many years in the UK have been determined by ulw (amongst other things). - which by the way is defined as what it says, without people fuel or water.

For motorhomes If the ULW is under 3050 limits are 30 60 70 70 (Towns, singel carriageway, dual carrieageway, motorway).

Over 3050 they are 30 50 60 70.

Maybe some people are unaware of this, but taking this into account the propsed changes are not as great as some people think.

Personally I do not find the lower limits in some EU countries too big an issue. I drive slower for economy anyway.

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[G4GMO]

I have to say economy isn't often on my mind when I'm driving but self preservation is....as I've got older I'm finding driving has become a chore but when in the Hymer it is a pleasure.

 

[Larrynwin]

I am quite happy to cruise at 55mph, when in our RV we are relaxing not racing.
The big problem that you get on many journeys on dual carriageway is the road block lorries trying to overtake with the speed limiters that are supposed to make the roads safer.It only creates frustration and increases the risk of accidents. How long will it be before every vehicle has a speed limiter, 5 years ??? Thats freedom for you

 

[Big Momma]

I spend a lot of time driving my car for work and have to admit to occasionally having a 'heavy' right foot However, I consider my Motor Home to be a leisure vehicle and drive accordingly. I always plan my trips so that if I cannot get to my final destination within a reasonable driving time and at a reasonable speed (usually 60-65mph) then I will schedule a stop. This way the whole holiday is a relaxing event so although my Motor Home is capable of doing up to 80mph comfortably (slipped to that on a Motorway a couple of times, not on purpose you understand) I generally stick to the more sedate speed of 60-65mph even on those lovely quieter French autoroutes

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[JeanLuc]

I think there is a great opportunity here to clarify the whole issue of which weight limit determines maximum allowed speed. Below is a copy of my response to the consultation sent by e-mail on 18th February. At that time, there was little reference to "motor caravans" as I remember it. I have to say that I cannot see any reference to the points I made in the present online "responses received" summary. We can only hope.

Philip

E-mail to DFT
I reply as a private individual.

I realise that most of your consultation may be aimed at commercial operators of HGVs, but wish to point out the position regarding those motorhomes that are registered as PHGVs since they have a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM), or maximum laden weight, in excess of 3.5 tonnes. Leisure use of Motorhomes is growing in the UK, mainly amongst more mature members of society, since their price puts motorhomes out of reach of many younger people. The most popular UK internet forum for owners now has over 40,000 members.

Most owners are not interested in travelling at high speeds, being more concerned to enjoy their leisure travel whilst keeping fuel consumption to a minimum. For my own part, I seldom travel at 70 mph on a motorway, although on occasion I may do so. (My motorhome has a MAM of 3.8 tonnes.)

However, it is quite intimidating to be sandwiched in a string of large HGVs (38 tonne Artics) all travelling at 55-60 mph and tending to allow little stopping distance between them - as is often the case. The proposed change in limits would prevent me from having the option of pulling out and overtaking them in order to find some 'clear space'. I would find this a problem.

On a slightly different, but related point, it is good to see that the proposal is based on maximum laden weight or MAM. Regarding non motor-way roads, my understanding is that vehicles with an unladen weight in excess of 3,050 kg are limited currently to 50 mph for single, and 60 mph for dual carriage-way roads. The concept of unladen weight is of little use to a motorhome owner. I would not know where to find that information for my own vehicle. Motorhomes are normally classified with two weights: Mass in Running Order (MIRO) and MAM. MIRO is heavier than ULW since it includes allowances for fuel, fresh habitation water, LPG for cooking etc, electric hook-up cable, in addition to the normal driver, spare wheel and basic tools.
Surely, it would make more sense to base all speed limits on MAM since that is an unequivocal number stated on the weight plate, and which reflects the safety characteristics of the fully-loaded vehicle?

I hope these comments are of some use. Please feel free to contact me if any clarification is required.

 

[moandick]

A Good Post, JeanLuc

Unfortunately it contains a great deal of common sense - something which seems to be sadly lacking from most of our Authorities today - and for that reason, although I hope it gets through to the Authorities, I have my doubts that it will. :Angry:

 

[wireman]

mmmm, I await clarification but it appears that my 4000kg MAM unit has an ULW of 2890kg ex factory bu the MIRO is 3300 kg or thereabouts so I will not be subject to these rules even though I am plated at as a PHGV; so thats nice...even though we tend to cruise at 60: although as pointed out above if they restrict us to the inner two lanes there is going to be even more congestion caused which will have a bigger negative affect on safety than any positive affect these rules purport to give. Why...well given that the other day the gantry signs were proudly proclaiming "DON'T HOG THE MIDDLE LANE" I think that its self explanatory.

Lane discipline ion this country is atrocious and causes most of the problems on our roads (hence the reasons why they want to keep lorries etc. out of the PASSING lane of dual carriageways where they cause horrendous tailbacks often overtaking taking miles to accomplish) that are more than single carriageway and how many more drivers are are going to be frustrated by the MH restricted to 50 on a single carriageway (much like our tugger bretheren) by complaining about its lack of speed when the reality is its sticking to the law. TBH much the same applies to articulated lorries which are restricted to 40mph on a single carriage way....wonder how many people actually KNOW that?

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[JeanLuc]

Quote from Wireman:
"how many more drivers are are going to be frustrated by the MH restricted to 50 on a single carriageway (much like our tugger bretheren) by complaining about its lack of speed when the reality is its sticking to the law. TBH much the same applies to articulated lorries which are restricted to 40mph on a single carriage way....wonder how many people actually KNOW that?"

Perhaps its time to get those speed stickers fitted to the rear, like the French apparently demand now. Then we can have a row on the right side for UK MPH limits and another row on the left side for KPH limits. Wonder how many confused car drivers will be following us then?

Philip

 

[tacr2man]

The more speed limited vehicles on motorways, dual carriageways, the more they are in effect going to become 2 single carriageways , with limited overtaking , and the more nose to tail accidents you are going to get, as if you are speed limited , if you consider others and want to overtake a vehicle in front then you get close to the vehicle in front before pulling out to overtake, whilst in this position you are very vulnerable to the vehicle in front suddenly stopping or slowing.
The other thing you get if limiting overtaking is veh A in lane decides they want to travel at 45mph, and you cannot legally pull out and overtake , this builds up frustration and can lead to people doing unpredictable things which cause accidents.
I occassionally drive artics, as a friend of mine has his own transport business, and sometimes gets let down. If I travel on a single carriageway at 40mph as I should the queues behind are incredible, as you get drivers who will not overtake even if I keep well over and signal them thru, (another debate) but sit just behind extending my vehicle by another 30 feet for anyone else. You then get the guy who overtakes because he decides he needs to causing me and the oncoming vehicle to brake to let him thru . Many 3 lane motorways are effectively 2 lanes travelling at 56mph and 1 doing anything they can get away with, untill the density gets to the point that, that 1 lane ends up going slower than the inside two are doing . They keep fiddling trying to get a quart into a pint pot , and as everybody knows it cant be done. especially when you get a 3 lane motorway feeding into another 3 lane.

 

[wireman]

and the outcome is that this is costing US billions of pounds a year in lost time and excessive transport charges whilst the nanny state trys to slow us down even more to stop accidents and actually creates even more....our roads are well on the way to grinding to a halt already....

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