LPG refillable bottle in winter

Discussion in 'The Beginner' started by 1948, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. 1948

    1948 Read Only Funster

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    Wondering if anyone can answer this question
    As I understand that LPG is a mixture of mainly propane with some amount of butane , During winter time (temperture of well below -10C eg in high mountain sites) Everytime you refill the bottle there will be residue butane gas in the bottle which does not gas off, and over a few successions of refills, the bottle will be full of butane gas which does not gas off rendering the bottle unuseable so will have to either empty the bottle physically or get to warmer climates so the butane gas in the bottle can be used up. Please tell me if this is correct Thanks for reading
     
  2. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    sounds a worry, however in cold climates LPG is pure propane so no problem.
     
  3. 1948

    1948 Read Only Funster

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    So it is correct in theory
    Do you have personal experience of this ??
     
  4. John & Joan

    John & Joan Funster

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    I contacted CALOR and they replied that the gas they sell as Autogas is the same as the gas in the RED propane bottles.

    I know that when I filled up in France in July it was marked as Butane at the pump.

    The biggest problem I have had was the regulator on my underslug tank freezing as it is outside behind the front wheel and was getting splashed with water and slush then freezing overnight. It will be covered and protected before we have any bad weather.

    John
     
  5. 1948

    1948 Read Only Funster

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    I do not think that there will be any temperature problems in Uk so the real problem arises in France if there is butane LPG as in the Alps hence I was advised in another forum that LPG is rare in the Alps region.
    I will have to wait for more comments before updating my calor bottles
    Fareground workers always cover regulators in rags in winter.
     
  6. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

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    now where did I say it was correct in theory, I only said it was a worry, did not say if it was justified or not, hee hee
     
  7. John & Joan

    John & Joan Funster

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    I used Calor Propane in 47kg bottles when I lived full time in my caravan as site warden. In the winter of 1982 it went down to -20c and the gas was still flowing. The regulator was covered in snow but still functioned OK.

    The problem I had last winter was due to the position of the regulator and I think water had got in above the diaphragm through the breather holes and froze. Got a new regulator now and it will be covered before the winter.

    The French garage I used was a Shell station on on the A28 and the pump was definitely marked as Butane. I know that in France they do vary the mix depending on the season.

    John
     
  8. Douglas

    Douglas Read Only Funster

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    I'm not too sure if this will help as at this point the gas is allowed to expand and that will course a drop in temperature any insulation it will keep it cold.

    Its the same as when the liquid is expanding into gas in the tank itself.

    Doug...
     
  9. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Agreed, it won't help, you should never insulate tank, bottle or regulator.
     
  10. Terry

    Terry Funster

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    Don't know if this is of any help but when using the patio heater in the winter, when the bottle is almost empty ( prob 10 % left ) it never uses the last bit of gas :Eeek: If I put on a full bottle again no probs until the last bit :thumb:Yet if I put the almost empty bottle on the bbq it empties the bottle completely :thumb:I think it could be down to the patio heater demanding more gas quicker than it can turn from liquid to gas in the cold ???
    terry
    BTW turn on your empty bottle and turn it upside down that way you know it is empty :Rofl1:
     
  11. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

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    Correct Terry ,

    same reason why you would have a problem running a gas hungry appliance from a small Camping Gaz bottle.. same pressure but can't produce the gas quickly enough , the volume is too small.

    You can observe this by boiling water in two different sized pans, the bigger pan produces more steam, and as the volume of water in the pans reduce you get less steam ..
     
  12. oldun

    oldun Read Only Funster

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    Insulating a tank does not necessary help keep the gas inside the tank warm.

    As gas is drawn off from the bottle the liquid inside the bottle has to gas off to keep up with the supply.

    Anyone familiar with refrigeration knows that when a liquid gasses off there is a marked drop in temperature of the liquid.

    So insulating the bottle will not keep it warm but will slow down the rate at which it heats back up.

    I once had a bottle of gas that seemed to be "dirty" in some was so I decided to empty the bottle and return it for a new one. One cold winter's night I put the bottle at the bottom of our very long garden and opened the gas valve. In the morning I found a solid lump of ice encasing the bottle and the bottle still mostly full.
     
  13. bobandjanie

    bobandjanie Funster Life Member

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    Hi, we have had refillable gas bottles since 2004, and in that time spent a lot of time in Germany / France and the autogas you buy in Summer is a 60/ 40 mix, I think in the winter they change the mix because this year has been the only year we have had this problem, and filled with some duff gas at the end of August.:cry:

    We was talking about this a couple of weeks ago, and what I was thinking is :Doh: When we filled up at the end of August they were running the tanks down ready for winter gas, because they would have the same problem at the garages............Their tanks are outside on a cold day you fill up, :BigGrin: and you get Propane. :thumb: I come along on a hot day and most of the Propane has gone and we have Butane it gets cold at night and it wont gas off.:cry:

    When we got home in October I took the bottles off and tipped half a bottle of gas away, and refilled with good old UK autogas which is 100% Propane, well thats what the chap at Flowgas
    told me, well he said at leased 98% anyway.:thumb:

    And thats more than Calor told me after having Phoned 3 different numbers, and still not getting an answer.:BigGrin: Bob.
     
  14. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    back to the OP's question......butane and propane readily intermix and cling to each other at molecular level so there should be nothing in an empty bottle.

    otherwise, what would the point of mixing two gasses achieve.
     
  15. bobandjanie

    bobandjanie Funster Life Member

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    Hi John, would it still mix if it was cold and the Butane never gassed off, if so what did I tip out of my bottles on my drive and just sat there in a puddle...:Wink: :Rofl1::Rofl1::Rofl1: We have secumotion regulator and if the pressure drops it shuts off. :Doh: :Smile: Bob.
     
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