Beware the speed gantry cams on the M25 are now officially switched on.. (1 Viewer)

[grumps147]

Read in the Times today that a senior person from the Department of Transport has told the Bedford police commissioner his plan to switch on speed cameras along his section of the M1 and issue speeding tickets for all vehicles going over 70 MPH is illegal. This is on the basis that speed cameras are a safety device and not installed for the purposes of raising revenue. I guess this would apply across the land.

Despite the Times article, I cannot see how using cameras already there, as long as they are approved devices and correctly calibrated, is illegal and would be interested to know what the offence is? ( must try and get access to a copy of today's Times, online wants me to pay £12!).

I did say earlier in this thread he would, if just using netting off money to prop up the policing budget, not be conforming to financial guidelines given to the camera partnerships as to how they can spend a small percentage of what is recovered from fixed penalty tickets (a huge percentage of which goes back into central government). In doing so the whole partnership group would also be failing to conform to the guidelines. Partnerships only get monies from netting off by bidding to set guidelines for safety schemes, and they bid to the Dept. for Transport. They don't get the money unless the department approves the scheme(s). If they made a bid and he spent it in some other way without consultation with the board members then there is the possibility of some kind of fraud. Financial rules should prevent this.

However, technically, as it can be spent on any road safety scheme, he (more properly the partnership) could for instance propose a bid financing a safety scheme that involves a group of officers and a car to target a road safety issue, such as mobile phone use or drink driving etc.

In reality this was one of two things, either a poorly thought out publicity stunt, or a genuine but totally incompetent way of raising funds to prop up policing. No one holding such an office should be doing either. Their financial and legal officers should also be advising them accordingly.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-34744459

192.

One hundred and ninety two miles per hour!!!!

Holy Moly

Plank! Deserved his jail sentence

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

I did say that I thought that is where they went, but as above, not really bothered about where they go. If caught, it is the same amount of money out of the pocket. On M25 and other variable or specs enforced roads, I simply set the speed limiter. As backup, the "Road Angel" (other brands are available) also warns me of cameras.

Speed limiter, best thing since sliced bread where ever you are 30/40/50/60/70, set it and you never get caught out by accidental oversight

Any way you dont get there much quicker by speeding anyway

Peter

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[DuxDeluxe]

Speed limiter, best thing since sliced bread where ever you are 30/40/50/60/70, set it and you never get caught out by accidental oversight

Any way you dont get there much quicker by speeding anyway

Peter

Quite right. I use mine a lot plus also the road Angel to warn of black spots etc.

 

[bigfoot]

I didn't know you could go faster than 20 mph on the M25!

 

[gus-lopez]

Despite the Times article, I cannot see how using cameras already there, as long as they are approved devices and correctly calibrated, is illegal and would be interested to know what the offence is? ( must try and get access to a copy of today's Times, online wants me to pay £12!).

Because UK law states that they are for safety purposes & not revenue gathering & the rules are speed limit +10% +2mph.
To issue tickets at a lower level requires a change in the law.

They try it here now & again with tickets for 1kph over the limit, normally in tunnels using average speed cameras. Some dopes pay but anyone who knows just gives it to the insurance " fines defender" & it is scrubbed. & even traffico N332 site states that it is illegal.Same regs as UK near enough.
Only way that you can be fined here for 1kph over the limit is if caught by the Pegasus equipped Trafico helicopter .

Plank! Deserved his jail sentence

No he should really be done away with if he was stupid enough to keep a photo record of it.

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[DuxDeluxe]

@grumps147 - don't think the below is quite correct....

"Because UK law states that they are for safety purposes & not revenue gathering & the rules are speed limit +10% +2mph.
To issue tickets at a lower level requires a change in the law."

Please find the APCO speed guidelines

Article 9.2 and the table 9.6 refers.... http://www.cambs-police.co.uk/roadsafety/docs/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf


The 10% plus 2mph is not enshrined in law. They are guidelines, nothing more and do not have to be adhered to. I have heard anecdotal evidence that in North Wales (in the Brunstrom era) that the prosecution threshold was much lower..... Hope that clarifies

 

[grumps147]

@grumps147 - don't think the below is quite correct....

"Because UK law states that they are for safety purposes & not revenue gathering & the rules are speed limit +10% +2mph.
To issue tickets at a lower level requires a change in the law."

Please find the APCO speed guidelines

Article 9.2 and the table 9.6 refers.... http://www.cambs-police.co.uk/roadsafety/docs/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf


The 10% plus 2mph is not enshrined in law. They are guidelines, nothing more and do not have to be adhered to. I have heard anecdotal evidence that in North Wales (in the Brunstrom era) that the prosecution threshold was much lower..... Hope that clarifies

Sorry Dux, I am struggling to find anywhere in any post where I said cameras are for safety purposes not revenue etc., or referred to the actual limits or speed when action would or could take place.
My clarifications concerned the claims the PCC would use monies netted off from speeding penalty tickets for general policing purposes.
I have no personal issues with speed cameras and their operation, but the more I read of the involvement of the NPCC (the ACPO replacement) with regard to safety courses, the less I am happy with their level of involvement, but that is another thread.
I can also remember the oil crisis 50mph national speed limit in 1973, and I recall the accident and casualty rates fell dramatically when that was in place - now there is another thread, not increasing but decreasing the national limit to save lives!

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Sorry Dux, I am struggling to find anywhere in any post where I said cameras are for safety purposes not revenue etc., or referred to the actual limits or speed when action would or could take place.
My clarifications concerned the claims the PCC would use monies netted off from speeding penalty tickets for general policing purposes.
I have no personal issues with speed cameras and their operation, but the more I read of the involvement of the NPCC (the ACPO replacement) with regard to safety courses, the less I am happy with their level of involvement, but that is another thread.
I can also remember the oil crisis 50mph national speed limit in 1973, and I recall the accident and casualty rates fell dramatically when that was in place - now there is another thread, not increasing but decreasing the national limit to save lives!

My apologies - I think the problem was quoting within the quote itself - I tried looking back to see the original. The guidelines remain the same, however. Once again sorry for the confusion

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[Jaws]

As an aside re speeding offences..
If you are nicked for a speed less than the posted speed limit +10% you are entitled to appeal and ask the courts to check your speedo

Years ago, before cameras when you had to actually be stopped, if you were accused of just creeping over the limit, you were within your rights to ask to be taken from the place of the alleged offence to a place where the speedometer could be accurately checked..
A useful bit of info for an oik on a bike like me .. Twice I was told to sod off and in future watch my speed

 

[Khizzie]

They do but fines to subsidies police austerity budget cuts is a bit against the grain dont you think.

Don't speed and you wont get fined to subsidise the police force...simples ...!! Bet you don't exceed the speed limit in France...or whinge that they are subsidising the police force.

 

[Big bus man]

Don't speed and you wont get fined

That's easy to say and easy for motorhomes to abide by but in today's world you go with the flow and when one decides to keep to a limit the bunching starts and so does driver frustration, enforcing limits rigidly may help stop this but when a mobile unit decides to set up on a 30mph limited road it is so easy for any of us to get caught. Near us it is common for one of these vans to set up on the industrial area to catch drivers coming over a flyover, they get plenty of catches but none of these are a safety issue, a deserted area apart from vehicles using it as an easier way through to Gatwick or the outlets shops, this is purely about money making. Like all towns there are backstops, I can't say I have ever seen a camera set up in one of those!

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[GJH]

in today's world you go with the flow and when one decides to keep to a limit the bunching starts and so does driver frustration,

But isn't the real cause that some people have decided that it is OK for them to "go with the flow" and break the speed limit, rather than one person deciding to abide by it? Wouldn't bunching be prevented if everyone stuck within the limit?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

But isn't the real cause that some people have decided that it is OK for them to "go with the flow" and break the speed limit, rather than one person deciding to abide by it? Wouldn't bunching be prevented if everyone stuck within the limit?

That was covered earlier Graham. Apparently the majority of posters on this thread believe that keeping to the speed limit is inconsiderate to the idiots that don't

 

[GJH]

That was covered earlier Graham. Apparently the majority of posters on this thread believe that keeping to the speed limit is inconsiderate to the idiots that don't

I thought it was different white vans we all drove

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[Big bus man]

That was covered earlier Graham. Apparently the majority of posters on this thread believe that keeping to the speed limit is inconsiderate to the idiots that don't

Accepted NickNic, however that does make me an idiot then because as I have got older and wiser I can visualise what excessive speed can do in an accident situation so drive in a relaxed manner most of the time letting all those around me who want to exceed the limit do so at their own risk, however often on today's roads you find yourself up against a slow vehicle and to get into the faster lane requires matching their speed, often over the limit then move back in and resume mormality, however once you have done that a couple of times with the possibility of having to do it regularly you feel safer and less stressed staying at the higher speed, problem it there are always Audi and Mercedes drivers that want to prove their cars are faster so even the fast lane becomes slow, it is them drivers that need catching but it is us sensible drivers that get caught. Yes don't speed you won't get caught, easy! My answer is to set minimum and maximum speed limits for a given lane and allow undertaking then make it an offence to pull back into the slower lane without mirror signal manoeuvre.
Whilst I am working myself up I want to rant about those drivers that constantly change lanes in traffic jams, those that use roundabouts on motorways to jump the queue and those that pretend they are taking an exit then pull back in once they spot a gap further down. There, said it, I feel much better now

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Whilst I am working myself up I want to rant about those drivers that constantly change lanes in traffic jams, those that use roundabouts on motorways to jump the queue and those that pretend they are taking an exit then pull back in once they spot a gap further down.

Completely agree with you there.

I should declare that until a few weeks ago I was a BMW driver but they confiscated it because I refused to conform to the stereotypes you all have about German car drivers. I now have a different German car.

 

[Big bus man]

My theory is German cars are built for the Autobahn's thus need to be stable at very high speeds where all the other manufactures build their cars to make the passengers safe in the event of a high speed crash. You say's your money and take your choice but in my view the Swedes have the balence right, just a shame they are not the most reliably cars on the road.

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[GJH]

Accepted NickNic, however that does make me an idiot then because as I have got older and wiser I can visualise what excessive speed can do in an accident situation so drive in a relaxed manner most of the time letting all those around me who want to exceed the limit do so at their own risk, however often on today's roads you find yourself up against a slow vehicle and to get into the faster lane requires matching their speed, often over the limit then move back in and resume mormality, however once you have done that a couple of times with the possibility of having to do it regularly you feel safer and less stressed staying at the higher speed, problem it there are always Audi and Mercedes drivers that want to prove their cars are faster so even the fast lane becomes slow, it is them drivers that need catching but it is us sensible drivers that get caught. Yes don't speed you won't get caught, easy! My answer is to set minimum and maximum speed limits for a given lane and allow undertaking then make it an offence to pull back into the slower lane without mirror signal manoeuvre.

Could it be because they are driving round Crawley? Perhaps it is actually regional as we don't often come across that phenomenon. It happens from time to time on longer journeys but there tends to be only the odd slow vehicle.

Whilst I am working myself up I want to rant about those drivers that constantly change lanes in traffic jams, those that use roundabouts on motorways to jump the queue and those that pretend they are taking an exit then pull back in once they spot a gap further down. There, said it, I feel much better now

Totally agree

 

[Khizzie]

As I previously said .you speed and get caught you get fined..end of story..

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Crawley?

Reminds me of an old Wendyball song when teams play against Crawley:

You're just a bus stop by Gatwick
You're just a bus stop by Gatwick

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[gus-lopez]

Could it be because they are driving round Crawley? Perhaps it is actually regional as we don't often come across that phenomenon. It happens from time to time on longer journeys but there tends to be only the odd slow vehicle.

No, it is everywhere down the southern part of the UK.

 

[chaser]

141 posts just because someone put a warning on that the speed cameras are now working

 

[Rapido925M]

I warned my daughter before she went, but it took her several frustrating miles until it dawned on her that in Portuguese towns, if you speed, a red light will come on 50metres down the road and EVERYONE has to stop. She started driving within the speed limit and had a much better journey.

Scale that up to the M25! Install cameras to catch folk passing through a red light!! For a while there would doubtlessly be chaos and probably an increase in rear-end shunts, but I predict that it would settle down to an orderly traffic flow, fewer accidents and even fewer serious accidents - Gordon

[There was a previous thread about lorries overtaking each other and causing tremendous tailbacks. I noticed on a recent trip to Osnabruck that forbidding lorries from overtaking for mile after mile of motorway results in all lorries travelling at a steady speed, with reasonable gaps between each vehicle. Why bunch up and breathe fumes if you can't get past? Cars/MHs can slip into and out of lanes allowing their variations in speed to aid the passage of each other. With a bit of imagination things can get better!]

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[grumps147]

141 posts just because someone put a warning on that the speed cameras are now working

Taken a while to get to that number, start one on cyclists or dogs

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I warned my daughter before she went, but it took her several frustrating miles until it dawned on her that in Portuguese towns, if you speed, a red light will come on 50metres down the road and EVERYONE has to stop. She started driving within the speed limit and had a much better journey.

Scale that up to the M25! Install cameras to catch folk passing through a red light!! For a while there would doubtlessly be chaos and probably an increase in rear-end shunts, but I predict that it would settle down to an orderly traffic flow, fewer accidents and even fewer serious accidents - Gordon

[There was a previous thread about lorries overtaking each other and causing tremendous tailbacks. I noticed on a recent trip to Osnabruck that forbidding lorries from overtaking for mile after mile of motorway results in all lorries travelling at a steady speed, with reasonable gaps between each vehicle. Why bunch up and breathe fumes if you can't get past? Cars/MHs can slip into and out of lanes allowing their variations in speed to aid the passage of each other. With a bit of imagination things can get better!]

Many of the motorways in the Netherlands have the same system of banning trucks from the outside lane during certain times and it works really well. The A14 west of Kettering has a section where trucks are forbidden to use the outside lane as well, but guess what happens? Yes, all the Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian etc etc drivers simply ignore it. And more than a few Brits.........

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Many of the motorways in the Netherlands have the same system of banning trucks from the outside lane during certain times and it works really well. The A14 west of Kettering has a section where trucks are forbidden to use the outside lane as well, but guess what happens? Yes, all the Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian etc etc drivers simply ignore it. And more than a few Brits.........

Yep. They all ignore it.

Now they're all also getting the new three lane bit past Kettering wrong as well. The inside lane is supposedly for traffic hopping on and off between the three Kettering junctions. The lorries are sitting in that lane and changing lanes at the last second, usually without looking, when the realise they're in the wrong lane.

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[GJH]

Reminds me of an old Wendyball song when teams play against Crawley:

You're just a bus stop by Gatwick
You're just a bus stop by Gatwick

We had to attend a funeral in Sussex earlier this year so stayed a couple of nights at Crawley. At least it saved us making the mistake of going there in the van

No, it is everywhere down the southern part of the UK.

Ah, I get it now. Speed limits have to be ignored to cope with the bad driving habits of all suvverners

Yep. They all ignore it.

Now they're all also getting the new three lane bit past Kettering wrong as well. The inside lane is supposedly for traffic hopping on and off between the three Kettering junctions. The lorries are sitting in that lane and changing lanes at the last second, usually without looking, when the realise they're in the wrong lane.

"usually without looking". Isn't that the norm for many lorry drivers anyway?

 

[buttons]

Did 20 miles on the M25 yesterday and 20 miles today, very smooth stayed in the middle lane most of the way, majority were sticking to the limit didn't see a single cam flash.

 

[Rapido925M]

stayed in the middle lane most of the way.

Was that because the left hand lane was full or because you couldn't be bothered to move over?

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