A Frames are now approved in France? (1 Viewer)

[Minxy]

Is he perhaps a close associate of Monsieur Hollande and been given special dispensation for the use of his A frames in France?

Rude and condescending.

I believe the 'HE' in question is meant to be the chap who sells the a-frame system, not the funster.

 

[Minxy]

Is he breaking British law saying things that are not true to prospective buyers of his A Frames ?????

In a way yes ... he cannot show in writing that they DO meet the terms without question however he is apparently stating that they do to customers ... to me that is wrong and deceptive ... basically selling under false pretences, but that's just my opinion.

 

[TheBig1]

from my understanding the salesman is telling bare faced lies about his a frame being legal under CE legislation. This breaches advertising laws in this country

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Zoppydog]

We have only been back from France for a week after the twin lakes trip, We towed our Skoda Citigo there and back saw loads of the law and even attracted the attention if the Gendarmarie
they walked over to us in a motorway air'e while my wife was giving our dog a comfort break, i thought, "here we go" one spoke good English and all they were interested in was how the system worked and how the servo was refilled to stop dead pedal, they seemed quite impressed and thanked me and wished us a safe onward journey. and while at twin lakes other Funsters were rolling in towing on A- Frames as well.

So put the popcorn away

We had our A Frame, which we bought at TowBar2 TowCar, at Twin lakes too. We spent 3 weeks in France with no problems. Great company and system but we are not planning on taking it to Spain
Chris

 

[Xabia]

I believe the 'HE' in question is meant to be the chap who sells the a-frame system, not the funster.

Quite right.

 

[sallylillian]

I have posted this in the past and it may answer the original question.
Responding to your follow-up mail on the above subject to DVSA.

I am providing to you the Department for Transport official line, to give you the official documents and to avoid giving any definite statements that something is or isn't legal. This is because in the end the only legally binding ruling is that of a court of law, rather than that of a government official. However I will try to be some more help, albeit with the same caveat.

The distinction DfT are drawing about type approval is that this only applies to new unregistered motor vehicle and trailers. Towing frame brackets are invariably installed following car type approval and registration. The towing frame itself can't be type approved in isolation. When type approved the towed car isn't capable of being a trailer. At the point when the brackets and frames are installed "in service" legislation is applied instead. The towed car then becomes a trailer when towed, and the Construction and Use requirements for a trailer apply then instead of the type-approval legislation.

The Construction and Use Regulations reg 18 (1) requires "each and every part of every braking system and the means of operation thereof fitted to a vehicle shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and be properly adjusted." An interpretation of this raised in the DfT fact sheet is that if the towed vehicle has servo brakes then that servo might need to be operational for the trailer (towed vehicle) brakes to be sufficiently effective to be in "efficient" order. However it is also possible for the overrun brake with shortening cable from the tow coupling to provide too much brake control force input unless the servo is depleted. Some cheaper systems do not provide a vacuum source to reinstate the servo vacuum so have to be designed like this to get any appreciable brake effort from second and subsequent brake applications. Without depleting the servo the trailer brakes then lock up horribly on first application. This then begs the philosophical question about whether a vacuum servo with no vacuum source is a means of operation of a braking system in good and efficient order, even though the residual brakes for the trailer do help provide the necessary braking effort for a vehicle combination. (Trailer braking efficiency is not defined separately in Regulation 18.) That has never been ruled on in court, hence my first paragraph. However a school of thought to avoid any possible argument is to get the servo operational. as well as the ABS if that is also fitted to the towed car.

You are right it would be good if there actually were some rules or law to specifically address this. However in order to do so would require some amendment to the European braking legislation as UK cannot act in isolation to "gold plate" the existing laws or impose extra-judicial rules. There is no great incentive to do this as we are not aware of incidents of danger arising from towing motor vehicles as trailers . The government view is that strong evidence is required before committing to change, because of the cost of change and a resistance to extra regulation particularly where the political climate is to reduce regulation, and which is why we are where we are.

Steve Whitehart | Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792 454, Fax: 01792 454387

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Bailey58]

Too late, the OP has taken umbrage at the replies.

 

[bigtwin]

If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question

It's not a case of not liking the answers, he was asking about whether or not the retailer was breaking the law.

The vast majority of respondents, despite being reminded by the OP, don't seem to have grasped the question being asked.

Now might be a good time to acknowledge the haste of your response!

Ian

 

[Drexxer]

It's not a case of not liking the answers, he was asking about whether or not the retailer was breaking the law.

The vast majority of respondents, despite being reminded by the OP, don't seem to have grasped the question being asked.

Now might be a good time to acknowledge the haste of your response!

Ian

Well said

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Cavs]

Article 311-1 of the Code de la Route. In simple terms it says that only a trailer may be towed behind a vehicle, an exception being allowed in the case of a breakdown. A trailer is defined as being unable to be capable of self propulsion.

Caravan with motor mover, anyone?

 

[Bailey58]

So the OP expects a Funster to answer his question with a simple yes or no? Get real, he will, and did, get the usual responses regarding A-frames from several funsters.

 

[spitfire]

At the Fete European for camping cars here in France there was a seller of A Frames ( a Frenchman of course ! ) I asked him if they were legal in France and got a Gallic shrug so that answers the question re the law here I think .

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

It's not a case of not liking the answers, he was asking about whether or not the retailer was breaking the law.

The vast majority of respondents, despite being reminded by the OP, don't seem to have grasped the question being asked.

Now might be a good time to acknowledge the haste of your response!

Ian

I don't think I was hasty with my response.

The thread title is 'A frames are now approved in France?' Followed by a question of 'Is he braking British law saying things are not true to British buyers of A frames'

It's no wonder there was confusion with the replies.

The thing that most of us realise only too well after reading pages and pages of previous threads on the subject is that those that are against them will see it one way and those that are for them will disagree.

As in all debates there are several views of both the question and the answer. In this case, going by the various replies the question was not clear.

 

[bigtwin]

I don't think I was hasty with my response.

The thread title is 'A frames are now approved in France?' Followed by a question of 'Is he braking British law saying things are not true to British buyers of A frames'

It's no wonder there was confusion with the replies.

The thing that most of us realise only too well after reading pages and pages of previous threads on the subject is that those that are against them will see it one way and those that are for them will disagree.

As in all debates there are several views of both the question and the answer. In this case, going by the various replies the question was not clear.

A well considered response.

Ian

 

[busby]

My question was is he breaking British law? Not can I use it in Spain!

Anyway ...Thanks all of you or nearly all (as some seem to think its funny) for your comments and replies folks... At least most of you appreciate the importance of my question.
J&S Hurworth, Durham.

Not breaking British law,,just telling lies,,BUSBY..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[The Nomad]

from my understanding the salesman is telling bare faced lies about his a frame being legal under CE legislation. This breaches advertising laws in this country

Indeed. He is making a fraudulent misrepresentation....which is actually a criminal offence.
If he'd said "only the towball cup is CE compliant" he'd be telling the truth. But he's saying that his entire A-frame product is CE compliant, which is patently a lie.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

CE marking can be self certification so any manufacturer can and do apply the CE mark to their products without any testing being carried out. And for me therein lies the problem. Providing you keep records of where the materials come from and can show the competence of those doing the actual manufacture you can claim that the product is CE compliant. Note that I said compliant,not approved. The most worrying aspect is that the actual design is not necessarily checked (at least it wasn't at the time of my retirement). In real terms CE marking is not worth the paper it is written on when applied to many of the products out there.

 

[frogijock]

In Spain you are not allowed to tow a vehicle with another except if the broken down vehicle is causing a danger to other road users. The Grua are the breakdown trucks in Spain, and they piggyback the vehicle

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[busby]

Time we put this to bed i think,,,Can always start again next month,,,,BUSBY

 

[J&S]

Having read all the comments so far I can conclude that the salesman was not telling the full truth.
However it seems that I was a bit too much of a newbie to this forum. I mistakenly but naturally thought that it was made up of nice folk who like tens of thousands of other campers we have met would be only to pleased to help and or advise. Sorry my mistake should have realised that about one percent of the members would not be so inclined. Theres always 1 or 2 aren't there.
Anyway thanks to to the rest of you for taking the trouble to help me. Most appreciated.

Ps I would not have asked the question in the first place if I hadn't thought he (the salesman) was shooting me a line.
oh and we are off to France in the Spring with our car on an A frame ... wish us luck

 

[busby]

I don't think I was hasty with my response.

The thread title is 'A frames are now approved in France?' Followed by a question of 'Is he braking British law saying things are not true to British buyers of A frames'

It's no wonder there was confusion with the replies.

The thing that most of us realise only too well after reading pages and pages of previous threads on the subject is that those that are against them will see it one way and those that are for them will disagree.

As in all debates there are several views of both the question and the answer. In this case, going by the various replies the question was not clear.

I dont think it matters at all what anyone on this Forum thinks,,,its what The French or Spanish policeman that decides to pull you over decides on the day,,If you want to risk it do so,,,,,BUSBY,,

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[hilldweller]

It's not a case of not liking the answers, he was asking about whether or not the retailer was breaking the law.
The vast majority of respondents, despite being reminded by the OP, don't seem to have grasped the question being asked.
Now might be a good time to acknowledge the haste of your response!
Ian

But in his second post he said "but is he correct". The original post did not exclude comments being made on what the sales person said. The second post invites it. We always give value for money in a FUN answer.

 

[Jim]

We know that hundreds of A-frame users have been fined and told to un-couple in Spain. Do we know of anyone fined for using an A-frame in France?

 

[Minxy]

We know that hundreds of A-frame users have been fined and told to un-couple in Spain. Do we know of anyone fined for using an A-frame in France?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}