A frame towing (1 Viewer)

[Charlie]

Not actually the case in the UK.

Not specifically illegal does not mean legal by default.

Whatever is in question stays in a grey area of "not illegal" until tested by a court or specifically legislated on by the government.

"Not illegal" is not the same thing as "legal"

Please show me the documentation that says towing a car on an A frame is illegal ?

Cos if there isn't any it's no more illegal than picking apples of your own tree... Has anyone been prosecuted for picking apples off their own tree or are we awaiting a test case ?

I fail to see how there could ever be a test case on A frames or even apples as there is no legislation to base a test case on.

How we as individuals interpret or determine if it's against the law or not is entirely debatable but for me there is no law against towing with an A frame so therefore I cannot be prosecuted.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Please show me the documentation that says towing a car on an A frame is illegal ?

I can't, any more than you can show me the (government) documentation that says it is legal. I'm afraid any document produced by a company that sells them simply isn't good enough. As I said, this particular activity is sat in the grey area of un-legislated and untested.

or are we awaiting a test case ?

I can't see the government taking any interest or spending any parliamentary time on it so a test case is exactly what will resolve the issue one way or the other.

Unfortunately there won't be a test case unless something goes horribly wrong which hopefully won't ever happen so the grey area is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

 

[PeteH]

I find it quite funny that the people who have bought A frames passionately believe, to the point of anger in some cases, that the meaningless pieces of paper given to them by the salesmen, who have lied to them, somehow override the law of a sovereign country.

I wonder how much of it is those people just not wanting to face up to the fact that they've been conned by a salesman?

I dont think that is particularly the case. First, The use or not of the "A" frame on the European mainland has been well documented over many years. Those of us who have indeed done both trailing and framing, are well aware that since about 2000 the Spanish and Portuguese Constabularies have indeed been clamping down, and I am advised by those who I am still in contact with that it has got more prevalent since the "bust" of 2007-8.

I would no longer consider an "A" frame in Europe, largely because they are congenitally stupid in their legal system, which is based on the ravings of the "little man" (Napoleon). The Vienna convention or whatever is not the legal basis of of the EU. The fundamental document is the Rome Treaty. Part of which acknowledges that for the convenience of all. something which is permitted in a member country should be tolerated in ALL the EU states when used by a VISITOR. (note not a resident), and was originally aimed at not making Tourist travel so inconvenient that tourism would be affected. The UK for years accepted over-width German Caravans even though domestically they where illegal. So TECHNICALLY the Sales men are correct, However. The Spanish and Portuguese (in particular but not exclusively) are adept at ignoring that which they do not like, hence their regular fishing up to the UK beaches! with under-size nets.

Technically, an "A" frame IS a better tool for the job, and only fails in that they are difficult (but not impossible) to reverse more than a few feet. Has an insignificant accident record, far less than Trailer Wreck`s. And is proven by the large numbers that are successfully, and safely, used in the USA, where their use outnumbers trailer use by large margin.

This "discussion" will run and run, but unfortunately "A" frame use on the European mainland will eventually die completely. And that saddens me, another bit of freedom gone, whittled away by overzealous bureaucrats.

Pete

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[Charlie]

I can't, any more than you can show me the (government) documentation that says it is legal. I'm afraid any document produced by a company that sells them simply isn't good enough. As I said, this particular activity is sat in the grey area of un-legislated and untested.



I can't see the government taking any interest or spending any parliamentary time on it so a test case is exactly what will resolve the issue one way or the other.

Unfortunately there won't be a test case unless something goes horribly wrong which hopefully won't ever happen so the grey area is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

Sorry Nick but on this one we will have to disagree. I have much respect for your postings but we will have to differ.

There is zero legislation on using an A frame here in the UK so it's not a grey area any more then picking apples. If and like you I hope it never happens but if someone has a major incident and if there was a chance of resulting prosecution the fact still remains we as citizens cannot be prosecuted or taken to task over something that has no legislation against it.

But if for instance an A frame user had a car come adrift and cause mayhem they could likely be prosecuted for having an insecure rig or load. The A frame itself would be incidental and with no legislation could not figure as the basis of a prosecution.

We take risks in just about everything we do. Me up my apple tree is a bloody risk to say the least. Anyone up a tree is a risk just like crossing the road. But I can't be done for either so long as I'm not jay walking or some silly bugger kills themselves or someone else falling out of the tree.... No wait a minute many have been severely injured a killed falling from trees....... Makes A framing double safe then ?

Grey area ? I think not. There is no ambiguity so long as there is no legislation.

 

[Merle]

Yes and from memory cost €40 (it was a few years back)
We had got away with it from Roscoff to Lleida nearly made it to destination at Ampolla.No end of reasoning and argument and the fact it was an ex AA .A frame got told this is Spain not UK .disconnected paid the fine took note of passport number and on our merry way .

Might that not have been a towing dolly NOT an Aframe, totally different things. Towing dolly's are not to be used in this country other than for emergency recovery I believe

 

[jollyrodger]

Ah No ! it was a h/d
A frame with big green pads to cushion to the bumper and chains to attach to chassis / wishbone same as I used in the AA. A towing dolly very different and old hat ,do you mean a tow chariot ,have one of thows also
(A&R chariots Shardlow) to which I fitted stub axles with brakes.and towed hundreds of miles with .,ant it would make no difference what you had in Spain run the gauntlet its illegal..

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[Merle]

Yep I'm well aware of both and also well aware of the Spanish and British laws. I am also well aware that the new generation A frames are compliant with current EU requirements, gone are the days of over-run brakes.

 

[jollyrodger]

 

[Charlie]

Yep I'm well aware of both and also well aware of the Spanish and British laws. I am also well aware that the new generation A frames are compliant with current EU requirements, gone are the days of over-run brakes.

Err not quite.. The Caratow frame I have has overrun brake mechanism and I have a certificate of compliance a copy of which is carried in the MH.The kit was fitted this year it is the latest Euro kit but has overrun brake actuation .

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[Geo]

I think Merle may be alluding to electronic braking that is now prevalent amongst suppliers
I dont think that persay makes them any more EU compliant than a cable brake version personally,
What it may do is go some way to help reversing without the overrun bringing on the brakes
making it more likely to comply with UK trailer regs than anything EU related and going some way to dispel the Myth that they cant reverse
I am constantly being told you cant reverse an overrun braked A frame
I must have imagined along with my wife reversing out a full 60ft from between two parked up 44 tonners that chose to park either side of me over an empty lorry park

 

[PeteH]

Can I just point out, that the latest move away from overrun braking, has largely to do with compliance with a requirement to be able to REVERSE, without exiting the driving position to apply a manual device, which is the ONLY thing that IMV is negative about "A" frame use. Because the towed vehicle has a "Castor" built into it`s front steering, once the alignment goes beyond perfectly straight, the wheels "Crab" making further progress difficult, and requiring extra manoeuvring to re straighten. BTW, (manually) locking the steering helps, but of course is still (strictly) non compliant!. As someone pointed out, the so called "Grey Area" surrounding the Use in the UK, doe not actually exist, under the UK legal system NOTHING is illegal unless proscribed by parliament (Legislation) OR established by a Court (Legal Precedent). Whereas the "Napoleonic" legal system ASSUMES guilt or illegality, Until Tried and acquitted.

During my Time "Toading" in the USA, I used a Dolly, (FWD Auto car), this in my view has all the Alleged Benefits of a trailer, fully braked, can be properly reversed, if you know how!. and is more easily stored both at home and on site!. However in the UK they are allowed ONLY for "recovery". This came about circa 1970 (ish) when a Motor Trader was heavily fined for using one to bring a Car from Auction. This established the "Law" (Stupid in my View) around their use, NOT legislation BTW, and COULD possibly have been overturned had it been appealed?.

p.s, Bu888r!, Geo posted whilst I Was writing!. Now! what was that about gassing?.

Pete

 

[vwalan]

also although a braked dollie could cover the 50% braking rules there is also the, if its got brakes they must work rule so usually a dollie only works on the dollie wheels ,the cars rear brakes dont work.
there was several systems years ago .i had an hydraulic one that you had to run a hose through the drivers window and it operated the brake pedal. it was a bit clumsy .but worked .
its actually very easy to work an inline actuator to either pull a cable or push the pedal. brake lights can power a relay that operates the actuator . again was stared years ago but never caught on .
i still have lots of recovery stuff here but i will admit the mini artic suits me .
my harvey frost towboy gets used regularly by my son on recovery work .
unfortunately newer vehicles with big plastic bumpers etc make old fashioned recovery tools redundant .
times have changed . but my solid bar gets used alot .

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[Larrynwin]

I have an American RVi 2 inertia brake system which does allow reversing within the steering constraints.
I often wondered if a bungy attached to bottom of steering wheel would overcome reverse steering problem but still allow forward steering.

 

[tonyidle]

I have an American RVi 2 inertia brake system which does allow reversing within the steering constraints.
I often wondered if a bungy attached to bottom of steering wheel would overcome reverse steering problem but still allow forward steering.

Not if the steering wheel turned more than a half turn .

 

[Larrynwin]

Not if the steering wheel turned more than a half turn .

I think it would on a tight turn.

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[PeteH]

VWalan. The Americans don`t have the issues we make for ourselves by overcomplicating things. I firmly believe there is a dep`t in Government Bureaucracy which does NOTHING, but who`s remit is to spend all their days plotting as to how difficult "they" can make it for the "average punter"!. It was always difficult, But in the last 40 years of "Europe mess". it has become even more rigid!.

Pete

 

[Charlie]

I think Merle may be alluding to electronic braking that is now prevalent amongst suppliers
I dont think that persay makes them any more EU compliant than a cable brake version personally,
What it may do is go some way to help reversing without the overrun bringing on the brakes
making it more likely to comply with UK trailer regs than anything EU related and going some way to dispel the Myth that they cant reverse
I am constantly being told you cant reverse an overrun braked A frame
I must have imagined along with my wife reversing out a full 60ft from between two parked up 44 tonners that chose to park either side of me over an empty lorry park

I have no problems at all reversing....

When we come to a standstill the brakes are effectively on. To fully release them pull forward 9 or 10 inches this unloads the damped brake coupling. Then reverse slow and steady. We will and always go steady reversing anyway by default . The damper in the coupling I mentioned above prevents the brakes being pulled back on unless we push backwards to hard or fast. It's really is no problem at all.

I considered my options whether to go electronic or simple conventional mechanicals. As I understand and can fully maintain and repair if required the simple mechanicals where electronics are beyond me was also contributory. That and a £1000 quid less for a brand new set up also may have had something to do with it .

 

[Jim]

Well has anyone here actually been done ?? Last time this came up no one actually had... Rumour is not fact

It's not rumour, I know of dozens of stops and fines in Spain. Not heard of any for a couple of years though as A-Framers are getting the message.

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[Jim]

This page on our Gov website confirms the legality of towing in Spain https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain

 

[vwalan]

VWalan. The Americans don`t have the issues we make for ourselves by overcomplicating things. I firmly believe there is a dep`t in Government Bureaucracy which does NOTHING, but who`s remit is to spend all their days plotting as to how difficult "they" can make it for the "average punter"!. It was always difficult, But in the last 40 years of "Europe mess". it has become even more rigid!.

Pete

i agree totally. vw buggies etc are towed all over the place over there with no brakes . we used to import the frames at one time back in the early 80,s . but like you have said it became awkward and customers might get funny with usso we stopped doing it .
i dont have a problem with it .
used mine for thousands of miles over the years . it lived in my vw van . never went anywhere with out it . bought and towed vehicles from all over the eu. mind i,m not saying today i wouldnt have got stopped .
we used to joke about going to car auctions and only buying vehicles with tow hitches . if you had two or three aframes you could save on drivers .hee hee .

 

[PeteH]

This page on our Gov website confirms the legality of towing in Spain https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain

Reading it, This Came to my attention?.
Working in Spain
For certain job roles, you may be required to supply a criminal records check from the UK. More information on Disclosure and Barring Service checks (DBS) can be found here.

If you are asked to provide a Criminal records certificate (Certificado de Andecedentes Penales) from the Spanish authorities, details of how to apply are available on the Link Removed.

Teachers and other professionals and volunteers who are in regular contact with minors through their work may be asked to obtain a certificate from the Spanish Sex Offenders Registry. Details of how to apply are available on the Link Removed.

So it begs the question? WHY do WE get EU migrants with CRIMINAL / SEX records. If Spain can do it Why NOT the UK?.

Pete

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[Charlie]

Reading it, This Came to my attention?.
Working in Spain
For certain job roles, you may be required to supply a criminal records check from the UK. More information on Disclosure and Barring Service checks (DBS) can be found here.

If you are asked to provide a Criminal records certificate (Certificado de Andecedentes Penales) from the Spanish authorities, details of how to apply are available on the Link Removed.

Teachers and other professionals and volunteers who are in regular contact with minors through their work may be asked to obtain a certificate from the Spanish Sex Offenders Registry. Details of how to apply are available on the Link Removed.

So it begs the question? WHY do WE get EU migrants with CRIMINAL / SEX records. If Spain can do it Why NOT the UK?.

Pete

We nationals get CRB checks for many jobs here in the UK. I've been an instructor in Martial arts for well over 30 years and we get checked every single year as we teach kids from usually 7 or 8 years up.... Any minor infringements mean our strictly monitored licences would be withdrawn...

 

[gus-lopez]

Reading it, This Came to my attention?.
Working in Spain
For certain job roles, you may be required to supply a criminal records check from the UK. More information on Disclosure and Barring Service checks (DBS) can be found here.

If you are asked to provide a Criminal records certificate (Certificado de Andecedentes Penales) from the Spanish authorities, details of how to apply are available on the Link Removed.

Teachers and other professionals and volunteers who are in regular contact with minors through their work may be asked to obtain a certificate from the Spanish Sex Offenders Registry. Details of how to apply are available on the Link Removed.

So it begs the question? WHY do WE get EU migrants with CRIMINAL / SEX records. If Spain can do it Why NOT the UK?.

Pete

Also Spain now complies with the EU ECRIS system which requires a country to apply to the applicants country of nationality for a CRB as well. The requirement is that they act as 'co-ordinator' for all criminal records for a person & if a person is arrested /jailed in another EU state then the country has to supply all records to the national state for them to record. When my wife renewed her spanish one last September we had to wait 3 days for them to apply to the UK for her CRB info. We then had a Spanish /UK crb with Hague Apostille for 3,73€ !! & she had just paid £50 for a UK one.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/criminal/european-e-justice/ecris/index_en.htm

& as I have said before the EU rules, which I have to comply with here , were all in place to stop the illegals/migrant scum obtaining any benefits in the UK all the time. They just never used them.

 

[PeteH]

So How come WE seem to have most of the EU criminals "working" HERE!!!. We keep hearing about this or that person form wherever who has, it transpires a criminal record in the country They came From!. AFTER the event!.



Pete

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[Charlie]

So How come WE seem to have most of the EU criminals "working" HERE!!!. We keep hearing about this or that person form wherever who has, it transpires a criminal record in the country They came From!. AFTER the event!.



Pete

Obviously protocol is not being followed or the people are using false indentities.. Or even telling porkie pies ??

 

[kcy]

,

OMG a comma

 

[Sidney]

Quoting the dark side? Some will go to any lengths

But surely it must be okay to tow-a-car in Spain if the driver is British?

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[Sunsets Unlimited.]

I had our VW Up converted by Car A Tow south coast and have the documentation of EEC conformity with regards to continental towing in various languages and would not hesitate to show it to Spanish Police if stopped. The main point being missed here is that when you connect the car by an
A frame to the motor home, then attach the braking cable A frame to car brake pedal, then the lighting system Powered from the Motor Home, MH number plate covering rear car number plate and a hanging sign "Car On Tow". the car is no longer a CAR, it is not self propelled, it is now a 4 WHEELED BRAKED TRAILER..... If I were stopped I would argue the case road side. If I appeared to be losing I would take the officers details, photo graph them, split the car and partner drive it and at destination make a formal complaint to Police and take from there via my MP on return. I am a former mechanic and consider a car strapped on a 2 wheeled trailer behind a Motor home to be sheer madness. and if the Spanish insist on this then they are courting danger . One tyre blow out at say 50 mph the trailer would be liable to flip damaging car and motor home. and who else?? When towing I have my MH ride system set to 2 bar which means we are totally stable when passing articulated lorries even if they are pulling Tilts , Tautliners or Boxes. Or if vehicles are passing us.
Safety first and common sense.... trailers are a danger on the road and pain to store on camp sites too. Where it usually is Caravan and car or Motor Home and car.

JS,,

Sorry to say this, but the paperwork you have and can produce, isn't worth a light when confronted roadside by the Spanish Guarda. Me thinks most motor-homers who travel through Spain "A-Framing", do so, knowing that if they get pulled, they are going to get a fine.!

I've flashed the same paperwork you hold and it got me nowhere. I attempted to tell the "ossifers" exactly what you are saying about when the two vehicle are coupled, and it didn't wash even though they could read the blurb I produced. They say, car on a single axle'd trailer, being towed behind a motor-home, is safer than being A-Framed. Sorry.!!

And so endeth the lesson I learnt.

The book of SunsetsUnlimited, chapter 69, verse 69.

 

[PeteH]

i agree totally. vw buggies etc are towed all over the place over there with no brakes . we used to import the frames at one time back in the early 80,s . but like you have said it became awkward and customers might get funny with usso we stopped doing it .
i dont have a problem with it .
used mine for thousands of miles over the years . it lived in my vw van . never went anywhere with out it . bought and towed vehicles from all over the eu. mind i,m not saying today i wouldnt have got stopped .
we used to joke about going to car auctions and only buying vehicles with tow hitches . if you had two or three aframes you could save on drivers .hee hee .

I have a Photo somewhere, and If a Can find it I will upload it. But basically it shows and Old R-V parked, with 3 (yes Three!!) Old Suzuki 4WD vehicles all linked together With "A" frames as a "road Train".!!, Taken I think, from Memory, when we where parked up at the Big Asteroid Crater in Arizona?

Pete

 

[PeteH]

Found It!.

Looks like he was using the Black one. and the others where his "Spares"?

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