12v lamp fitments replacement help and suggestions

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by SandJ, Sep 17, 2014.

  1. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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    image.jpg image.jpg
    I have been sourcing the replacement of differing size down lights and it has not been easy. A lot of suppliers do not provide the cut out size or the depth, if fire rated or not as well as extortionate prices in some cases.
    So who would you recommend? Which website is user friendly?
    I know about Led being the best option for battery drain but do new Motorhomers? I know about O'Learys and others but who do I or others not know of?
    It states 12v and further down in the blurb it states transformer needed so very confusing.

    So the reason for the thread is to help and guide new and the diy'er who are capable but need reassurance or pointing in the right direction for action or the supply of what's needed
    This is for lamp fitment replacement or alteration not just changing bulbs to led.

    Which supplier would you recommend?
    Explanation on whether f rated is needed (fire rated)
    What is the name of the lamp type with bottom larger springs? (First picture above)
    What is the maximum hole you could use as this type gives a lot more of a variance in hole size. If say 70 outer diameter would you recommend 60 cut out max, or more or less?
    What is the name of the recessed lamp type with small sided spring (second picture above)
    Whether a filler is available if hole is too large for the small spring type (name of filler and supplier)
    Whether a transformer advised fitment can be used as it is 12v (transformer is only to reduce it from 240v to 12v) or is it? So is 12v reduced via transformer the same as 12dc?
    Who supplies the screw on and off replacement bezels if a colour change is all that is sought (brass to say chrome)
    How to add a switched live on and off switch or other options a simple diagram
    There may be things I have not mentioned that you may feel helpful please add as all information can help.
     
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  2. Ed Excel

    Ed Excel Funster

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    No particular supplier just a quality manufacturer, eg Philips Lighting.

    Fire rated not necessary. The purpose of fire rated lighting is to stop the spread of fire, from room to room, through the ceiling void. I think the legislation came in after some serious fires in Sheltered Accommodation buildings.

    Lamp looks like a tungsten halogen reflector lamp.

    The cut-out needs to be large enough to pass the retaining springs through and not larger than the dimension across the springs when they're deployed. Usually this dimension is provided with the luminaire.

    Both luminaires are recessed downlighters. The second looks like an adjustable 'eyeball'.

    Not aware of any makeup pieces available. Would suggest cutting something suitable from timber/plastic.

    'Transformer' not required, assuming the lighting will be connected to a 12V power source.

    If the bezels are available get them from the luminaire manufacturers but I'm not aware they do.
     
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  3. hilldweller

    hilldweller Funster Life Member

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    Don't even think about anything except LED.

    But LED "bulbs" will fit in conventional fittings.

    I would avoid anything mentioning "transformer" on the basis proper 12..24V LED modules are easy to get. The ones sold as 12..24V are best, they have the most efficient electronics regulating them.
     
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  4. jdk62

    jdk62 Funster

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    "Bulbs.." !!

    Bulbs are what you plant in the garden..... :D

    I still have marks on my hand from being an apprentice when I asked the storeman for a bulb.... I recall his words as he hit me with a scale rule.... " it's a lamp you ejit....."
     
  5. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    Been through this myself......but

    How often do you see a shelf full of 60w LAMPS in any electrical depT of any store.......you dont, you see them labelled as 60w BULBS....even on the manufacturers box.

    To the man in the street a lamp is something you put a bulb in.

    Type 'lamp' into google....do you see any images of bulbs ?
     
  6. tonyidle

    tonyidle Funster

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    I can't imagine any opportunities for fitting the spring-retained type in a caravan or motorhome. They need more space above than can easily be arranged. Caravan and motorhome lighting, in general, is only available from places that specialise in it and for that reason (and a smaller buyer base) they will cost more than the domestic variety.

    Your questions:

    Fire rating isn't relevant
    Ceiling spot or ceiling downlight
    Minimum diameter measured over the spring coil (diameter or template provided is usually very 'generous'.
    Under cabinet light
    No
    No transformer
    12v is 12v but LEDs vary in sophistication
    No-one
    If you need to ask that particular question you probably shouldn't be working on electrics. (Sorry :))
     
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  7. bubble63

    bubble63 Funster

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    Mmmmmm

    Most of these references seem to be for domestic installations

    Find a motor home supplier and pick from their selection

    They are always at the shows

    Most lights will be surface mounted so avoid cutting holes

    Altern springs to mind but there are lots of others

    Type also eBay, search for motorhome led lights

    N
     
  8. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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    To clarify and answer some of the points raised

    I stated it was not just for me but for others as well and to help source and direct correctly and safely, I could have answered myself but sought clarification from the more knowledgable.

    I asked certain questions because varying advice had been received that was confusing.
    I asked a 12v dc light specialist " are the fitments f rated?" The answer was ours are "A rated or better" another answer "I have never been asked that before and as far as I know their selection were not" Well the lights being replaced some are f rated.

    Question
    These lamps say a transformer is needed for 12v is that necessary as it's for 12v dc and the bulbs are being replaced with led? "As it states you need a transformer.

    Tonyidle states
    "I can't imagine any opportunities for fitting the spring-retained type in a caravan or motorhome. "
    Well there are two in this motorhome and I've seen others the are fitted to an A class drop down bed
    "Caravan and motorhome lighting, in general, is only available from places that specialise in it and for that reason (and a smaller buyer base) they will cost more than the domestic variety"
    Not necessarily correct and some misleading answers came from the said specialists and even they have prices that are extortionate in some cases.
    "Fire rating isn't relevant" they are fitted in this so causing confusion
    Bezels have been found but very limited
    "If you need to ask this question........." As stated it was a post not just for me and I was after answers for clarification and expert advice rather than a diy'er as in my case. I asked for a simple drawing as it explains easily how to fit the switch.


    Bubble63 states
    "Mmmmmmm Most of these references seem to be for domestic installations"
    Wrong they are motorhome
    "Find a motorhome supplier and ......"
    Tried and not all needed source able part of reason for post.
    "Altern springs to mind but there are lots of others"
    Tried them and reason for post "there are lots of them" well I have asked for them but not many have been forthcoming.
    "Type ebay"
    I have.

    Thanks for you answers and I will go away confident I am 100% certain that the advice I have received is accurate!! I asked for suppliers and clarification with an opportunity to help Motorhomers with varying degrees of skill base but sadly some answers have been given without reading the original post and understand the content.

    I received confusing replies and questioned the answers given whereas a newbie would just accept. Caravan and motorhome suppliers in some cases charge extortionate prices the same products can be sourced elsewhere and it is them places I was after.

    I will post a pic of the said fitments albeit the pic quality is poor just to show they are not domestic.
     

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  9. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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    Another
     

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  10. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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  11. voyagerstan

    voyagerstan Read Only Funster

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    if you need to ask all these simple type of questions you should not be messing around with the electrics in your van (nothing worse than an electrical fire) simples .:rolleyes::rolleyes:STAN
     
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  12. The Wino

    The Wino Funster

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    Do you want to replace the fittings or just go to led bulbs (yes I know about lamps but lets not get pedantic).

    If just going to led bulbs first check they are all on the 12v circuit if they work when you are off hook up and you dont have an inverter fitted they will be. Take out a selection to a show get some quotes for leds the same physical size and stick them in job done!!.

    If you want new fittings not so easy.You will either have to source new ones exactly the same size as the old ones or rework the holes. You could find the ones tht say transformer required will work they are aimed at being used on 240v mains the transformer supplying 12v to the lamp. In the motorhome you just fit them without a transformer I had an led light strip from ikea like that in our old m/h looked great cost very little but they cen be polatity sensitive so swap the wires round if they don't work at first.

    I thinf the confusion was between fire and energy efficiency ratongs.

    David
     
  13. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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    Read the post and you would not post that comment SIMPLES

    Thank you but it is fitment replacements and holes are in place varying sizes depths and fitment type as pics show.

    I will plod along and source the right sizes it would have been easier with constructive help and not criticism as given by some. Thank you for the help given by some you know if you helped and not criticised!

    Just because you do not know the correct name of something does not mean you are unable to fit it, it just means it is easier to search for it. I try to help whenever possible admittedly a lot less than I used to and you wonder why!

    Sorry for contributing to the confusing posts that some would have thought may have been helpful.
     
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  14. peterc10

    peterc10 Funster

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    Going back to your first post I have the same fitments in my Adria as the one in the picture on the right of the post, except mine are in a sort of brushed stainless steel finish. I asked on this forum about them, but my question was more about getting the glass out to replace the bulbs/lamps. If you want a replacement you could try an Adria dealer but I suspect the answer will involve a lot of £s.

    Why are you replacing them? I just wanted to replace the bulbs with LEDs. The bulbs in mine were standard 10W 12V G4 halogens. You can get like for like LED replacements from lots of sellers on Ebay or at motorhome shows. The problem with me was getting the glass off. I eventually found out that the black ring has got a split in it, and you just need to find it a prise it apart carefully, take out the glass and the bulb is there to replace.

    With regards to your question on transformers, these are for use in the home and cut down the 240v to 12v. They were usually supplied in kits complete with 3 or 4 downlighters that took 12V G4 halogen bulbs, although you can buy them separately. I put a load in my house but they were a pain because the transformers used to burn out often, so replaced most of them. As far as I am aware you can buy these and just throw away the transformer and use the light in the 12v circuit in the motorhome. I have used the same halogen and LED bulbs in the 12V fittings both in the transformer fed ones in my home and in the motorhome and they seem to work OK in both.

    Sorry I can't help any further, but if you do find somewhere to buy the same ones, or ones to fit the hole, please let me know as I am looking for one.
     
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  15. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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    Thank you but it is full fitment change or bezel change from brass to chrome as well as other changes. I am aware of changing to led and how to remove glass.
    I believed you could ignore transformer and just use fitment but wanted to have it clarified or as stated best to ignore as Brian says.
    I have found suppliers of the type you need but it depends on cutout and depth which is not forthcoming on some web sites. Some sites quote some but not all which seems strange why they would do that. If you pm me your size and it is what I've found I will tell you supplier, I don't want to post all as some are hard to find as you have to look at differing areas of websites (another annoying confusing method of some suppliers)
    Thanks for your comments
     
  16. bubble63

    bubble63 Funster

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    Mmmmmm
    The original post is odd, 12v motorhome lights are abundant and simple

    I'm with stan on this one

    You can start a fire with 12v errors, take care,

    use a catalogue and an auto electrician

    Transformers are for AC !!!

    N
     
  17. peterc10

    peterc10 Funster

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    These particular transformers are used to transform 240V AC into 12v DC. If you already have 12V DC, as most motorhomes do, you can use the fitting without using the transformer that came with it. The 12V halogen bulbs I have in my "transformed" downlights at home are identical to the 12V halogen bulbs that were in the motorhome that were fed direct from the 12V distribution board.
     
  18. bubble63

    bubble63 Funster

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    mmm
    good answer but not always true, a transformer steps up or down ac, so ac in ac out

    a rectifier is the needed to make ac into dc

    your can run a 12v halogen on 12v ac, but an led 12v fitting needs dc [again not wholly true as I have some 12v ac led fittings, but these are special]

    of course, all of this is a red herring because your camper had 12v dc and is a suitable source for all types of fittings that are 12v rated

    This thread is getting a bit lost, camper LED's should/are simple

    regds neill
     
  19. SandJ

    SandJ Read Only Funster

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    I give in!!
    So which of you are right, are the experts right, who are the experts that have replied?
    I've had Wrong advice given from a reputable supplier
    Failure to read correctly which could mean advising incorrectly seems to be the case as well?
    I could go on but it is better to just leave it

    Oh there is a thread about gas bottles made by a newbie http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/calor-gas-how-does-it-work.93020/
    Maybe you could go and post on there stating he should not change a gas bottle as he doesn't know what he's doing!
     
  20. tonyidle

    tonyidle Funster

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    Spring-retained I envisaged as the type for domestic ceilings with the large spring "arms". TBH your original question asked the impossible in that a reply encompassing all the points you raised would require a long and detailed article on the subject. If an owner who wished to fit new lights, or replace old lights, couldn't answer most of those points himself/herself then I agree with the replies you have had that suggest the job is better left to a professional. Especially if it is necessary to ask how to fit a switch! I can understand that an owner might wish to clarify any one of the points you listed and this forum would be able to help.
    Drawing1.jpg
     
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