A-frames vs trailers again, sorry! (2 Viewers)

[Wilderbeast]

Much discussed subject my personal view is pay your money make your choice.
After much deliberating I decided to go for the trailer option as we like to travel in Europe and didn't want any restrictions as to destinations be it Spain or Germany or any place else for that matter.
As to travelling with the trailer not had any real issues once in Switzerland a site said two vehicles max .....! So left the car in the car park as I doubt the trailer would of survived.
Trailer does require a bit of maintenance but only yearly and not difficult.
Reversing no problem ,have more than once hand balled the trailer with the car still on albeit on a hard surface.
A second hand trailer will always sell should the time come but an "A" frame less so.
The prices I saw quoted at shows for the "A" frame .... No chance!
For us the trailer is fine so happy enough.
Good luck with your choice
D

 

[pappajohn]

There is a company that gives a written guarantee that they conform to legislation.

And do they undertake to pay all your legal costs if it went to court.

A properly set up (brakes) A frame CANNOT be reversed under control and without excessive drag....therefore, it does not meet trailer regulations

A sales ploy for the unaware and not worth the paper its written on.

 

[davejen]

For Sale Towtal A frame with RV2 electronic braking VGC with Modified Cross member for Fiat 500.
£450 ono
Cheers, Dave
01461 800429

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[zac]

For Sale Towtal A frame with RV2 electronic braking VGC with Modified Cross member for Fiat 500.
£450 ono
Cheers, Dave
01461 800429

Be better posting this in the Classifieds section, sounds a good price if thats the RV2 we were discussing earlier in this thread.

i.e. this one here

 

[Larrynwin]

Be better posting this in the Classifieds section, sounds a good price if thats the RV2 we were discussing earlier in this thread.

i.e. this one here

Tis a good price if ok .

 

[Charlie]

And do they undertake to pay all your legal costs if it went to court.

A properly set up (brakes) A frame CANNOT be reversed under control and without excessive drag....therefore, it does not meet trailer regulations

A sales ploy for the unaware and not worth the paper its written on.

Rubbish.......... Sorry but before making such statements perhaps you should visit the website and have a look ?

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[Charlie]

One point that does not get a mention is a lot of modern vehicles have a pumped oil system for the gearbox which only works when the gearbox is turning not when the diff is the driving force. Some have this system some don't you take your chance.

Errr NO you don't take yer chance you check before towing ... I'm surprised anyone would think it necessary to point such a fact out....

 

[pappajohn]

One point that does not get a mention is a lot of modern vehicles have a pumped oil system for the gearbox which only works when the gearbox is turning not when the diff is the driving force. Some have this system some don't you take your chance.

Never heard of that on a maual box...only autos.
Can you point to one cars documentation which does have this system.

 

[pappajohn]

Rubbish.......... Sorry but before making such statements perhaps you should visit the website and have a look ?

I have looked in the past and it is meaningless.
They may state it is legal in their interpretation of the law but dont even give any indication as to which parts of construction and use law and EU law it applies to.

It does not conform to any EU certification or any other certification....it cant, there is no certification.

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[Charlie]

I have looked in the past and it is meaningless.
They may state it is legal in their interpretation of the law but dont even give any indication as to which parts of construction and use law and EU law it applies to.

It does not conform to any EU certification or any other certification....it cant, there is no certification.

The system complies with all and any current legislation for trailers or vehicles being towed.

I know there is no legislation directly attributable to A frames. This is because they are covered by the legislation in paragraph 1 of this post.

Anyway we can argue till the cows come home these A frame devices are nreaking NO laws. So therefore they are not illegal..

Im not bothered either way.. But when I decide to tow it will be by A frame . No way am I going to have the hassle of a trailer its just not on .

We have to be careful this thread does not just slip into the usual pointless arguments.

So I wont post again other than to say I dont really give a monkeys

 

[pappajohn]

Just been back to the caratow website.

Along with the drivel they state being a letter (their letter, not an official one) confirming a frames are legal in europe they also show a ticket issued for using an a frame in Spain which was cancelled and refunded in........(issued.1996. Cancelled 1997)

19 years ago....how can that possible be relevent today.

Clutching at straws to make sales.

 

[Charlie]

Just been back to the caratow website.

Along with the drivel they state being a letter (their letter, not an official one) confirming a frames are legal in europe they also show a ticket issued for using an a frame in Spain which was cancelled and refunded in........(issued.1997. Cancelled 1998)

18 years ago....how can that possible be relevent today.

Clutching at straws to make sales.

It's not the caratow site I'm referring too. It Towbars to Towcars....

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[pappajohn]

It's not the caratow site I'm referring too. It Towbars to Towcars....

Now that makes all the difference

Electronic braking systems will exceed the minimum requirements and can easily be reversed...even up hill..
Still leaves the issue of castoring in reverse but thats a different subject.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Never heard of that on a maual box...only autos.
Can you point to one cars documentation which does have this system.

I do not know of a particular car with it but there was a lot of lorries with problem when the drivers used to knock them out of gear to go down hill fast and the oil pump off the primary shaft stop turning and boxes seized up or burnt out bearings from lack of oil as the pump was the main oil circulation and spray bars for the cogs. I would have thought quite a few commercials would have it now to save wear for a longer life.

 

[tonyidle]

For use in the UK and/France go A frame. There is a company that gives a written guarantee that they conform to legislation. Why on earth would we lumber ourselves with a blooming trailer and all the disadvantages that go with it ?

Wear on the toad ? What you mean wheel bearings ? Do trailers not have wheel bearings ? What else is going to wear that will present a problem ?

When in France a fella had a Smart on an A frame from Towbars to Towcars. The A frame itself was extremely light and easy to use. It went in the boot with consummate ease . I cannot think of an easier thing to set up and use. It comes as above with FULL written certification that it conforms to ALL requirements for use on the roads in the UK and in Europe. That said certain countries will spit the dummy but in this case for use in the UK get one and forget what the sooth sayers say.

Dont forget with a trailer you have to have somewhere to store it not only on site but at home when not in use. Strapping a car to a trailer is not that easy. It absolutely must be done well cos if ever a car came off a trailer and it wasn't strapped on properly all hell would ensue.

Ignoring the legality issues (if there are any in the UK) there are IMO a number of reasons for using a trailer rather than a toad:

It is impossible to reverse a toad except in an absolutely straight line. One of the UK sellers has a YouTube video of a toad being reversed round a corner and suggests that said video proves it can be done. Well he's right as long as you don't mind the toad front wheels being dragged sideways across the tarmac on full lock during the reversing manoeuvre.

Strain on the toad. The mountings used by the A frame are well in front of the toads suspension and are attached to a part of the car within the front crumple zone. The so-called tow hooks fitted to the car are sometimes used even though these are designed for very occasional car recovery. A toad relies on the front wheel caster to keep it straight. During normal use (being driven) the car is deflected from straight ahead by moving the wheels via the steering mechanism. When being A-frame towed the same operation is performed by the road surface against the tyres. There is a very great difference in the force required to deflect the car from straight ahead all of which is transmitted via the A-frame and its mountings. How much force? Ask a friend to drive the car slowly forwards with hands off the wheel then try to change the cars direction by pushing against it. Even more effort is required if the car is equipped with PAS.

Carefully strapping the car onto a trailer using modern strapping takes around 10 minutes. Releasing it & stowing the straps about half that. The cost of decent toad equipment and cost of a trailer are comparable. On site there is no storage problem: leave it where you would leave your car then park on it if pitch space is tight. If there's room (and often there is) just leave it hitched. That leaves storage when not in use at home - which I admit could be a deal breaker.

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[Charlie]

Ignoring the legality issues (if there are any in the UK) there are IMO a number of reasons for using a trailer rather than a toad:

It is impossible to reverse a toad except in an absolutely straight line. One of the UK sellers has a YouTube video of a toad being reversed round a corner and suggests that said video proves it can be done. Well he's right as long as you don't mind the toad front wheels being dragged sideways across the tarmac on full lock during the reversing manoeuvre.

Strain on the toad. The mountings used by the A frame are well in front of the toads suspension and are attached to a part of the car within the front crumple zone. The so-called tow hooks fitted to the car are sometimes used even though these are designed for very occasional car recovery. A toad relies on the front wheel caster to keep it straight. During normal use (being driven) the car is deflected from straight ahead by moving the wheels via the steering mechanism. When being A-frame towed the same operation is performed by the road surface against the tyres. There is a very great difference in the force required to deflect the car from straight ahead all of which is transmitted via the A-frame and its mountings. How much force? Ask a friend to drive the car slowly forwards with hands off the wheel then try to change the cars direction by pushing against it. Even more effort is required if the car is equipped with PAS.

Carefully strapping the car onto a trailer using modern strapping takes around 10 minutes. Releasing it & stowing the straps about half that. The cost of decent toad equipment and cost of a trailer are comparable. On site there is no storage problem: leave it where you would leave your car then park on it if pitch space is tight. If there's room (and often there is) just leave it hitched. That leaves storage when not in use at home - which I admit could be a deal breaker.

Sorry but storage on site can be a problem for a trailer. The sites I have been on in the UK were not big enough for a van a trailer and to car. Plus parking trailers around sites ain't going to go down well .

This is an endless argument. Those that have A frames will defend them. Those who have trailers will defend them.

I have neither but get fed up of listening to people groaning on trying to find excuses to slate products that are entirely viable AND legal...

 

[Silver-Fox]

Here we go daft question time from me so i don't have to trawl through a web site on A frames.

The A frame is attached via a tow ball, which acts as the pivot point.
Why then cant you lock the towed car's steering lock in the straight position.

No doubt im missing something here

 

[Reallyretired]

Here we go daft question time from me so i don't have to trawl through a web site on A frames.

The A frame is attached via a tow ball, which acts as the pivot point.
Why then cant you lock the towed car's steering lock in the straight position.

No doubt im missing something here

You could, and it would work, but you could be in trouble if you forgot to unlock it before proceeding normally, you probably wouldn't get a mile before the toads front tyres were on fire.

I tow a Suzuki Alto on an A-Frame in the UK only.

A trailer in my view is actually better except;
1. The train weight on my MH may not allow for the extra weight of the trailer.
2. My MH is kept in storage, if I had a trailer this would also have to be kept in storage at a considerable annual cost.

In favour of the trailer is that we have had to fork out to fit the A-frame to three vehicles now, whereas a trailer could well have lasted for all of them.

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[sdc77]

Sorry but storage on site can be a problem for a trailer. The sites I have been on in the UK were not big enough for a van a trailer and to car. Plus parking trailers around sites ain't going to go down well .

This is an endless argument. Those that have A frames will defend them. Those who have trailers will defend them.

I have neither but get fed up of listening to people groaning on trying to find excuses to slate products that are entirely viable AND legal...

Don't think they've been slated.. (and I thought you didn't care) I think it's been pointed out what a grey area it is.. And it is illegal in some countries. Type approval will certainly become an issue. Safety and warranty is something that seems to be "not worried about" ..
I just wondered if anyone had any answers ... seems not.

 

[9526]

Whenever we see a toad/car trailer we always shout

"BUY A CARAVAN !!!"



Broken Link Removed

It keeps us happy on long journeys

 

[chrisgreen]

Whenever we see a toad/car trailer we always shout

"BUY A CARAVAN !!!"



Broken Link Removed

It keeps us happy on long journeys

i used to shout that,now i tow a toad,with a caravan you have to tow it if you want to go anywhere,but you can use a motorhome with or without a toad.

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[mjltigger]

I am afraid you have lost me, no idea what the hand brake on the motorhome has to do with reversing with the smartcar attached.!

As with all A-Frame setups when you attempt to reverse even very slowly so the brake does not apply on the car the steering wheel of the car turns all the way round regardless. This of course prevents you from reversing it, you can force it but not something i am willing to risk as forcing the car to go back in reverse against the will of wheels is only going to end badly.

Now to assist with my setup i usually ask my wife just to sit in the smartcar and hold the sterring wheel stright, this of course works to a certain point. Not ideal but better than unhitching.

My point.. only partly serious.. was to reverse the toad while still attached instead of reversing the MH

 

[zac]

My point.. only partly serious.. was to reverse the toad while still attached instead of reversing the MH

If only it were that simple lol

 

[zac]

Here we go daft question time from me so i don't have to trawl through a web site on A frames.

The A frame is attached via a tow ball, which acts as the pivot point.
Why then cant you lock the towed car's steering lock in the straight position.

No doubt im missing something here

You could but then each time you then want to move forward you would need unlock it as the front wheels turn with the motorhome, not seen one with the steering locked and then able to tow going forward. In theory it should of course work but if it were that easy it would of been done already. Of course i am no expert i can only speak from my own personal experience. I am sure others will be able to comment on the technical aspect

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[Charlie]

Here we go daft question time from me so i don't have to trawl through a web site on A frames.

The A frame is attached via a tow ball, which acts as the pivot point.
Why then cant you lock the towed car's steering lock in the straight position.

No doubt im missing something here

On a conventional 4 wheel trailer the wheels are close together. This cuts lateral drag so reduces the pull sideways on the tyres when turning. Tighter the turn more the drag.

Wheels on a towed car are much further apart so the sideways drag is on heck of a lot more. But articulate the front wheels by unlocking the steering and most of the drag is eliminated .

 

[Gorse Hill]

Anyway we can argue till the cows come home these A frame

So I wont post again other than to say I dont really give a monkeys

So you were only kidding when you said this Charlie

 

[tonyidle]

The video:

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[Charlie]

So you were only kidding when you said this Charlie

Mmmm it's hard not to speak though.

Let's face it this is s subject we are never going to agree on.

When I say I don't give a monkeys I mean I don't give a monkeys what other people do ir think. If I decide to buy and use an A frame then that's what I will do.

Anyone who dismisses the paper work supplied with certain devices is completely missing the point. The paperwork is actually very comprehensive and any company supplying it could be held responsible if something within it is incorrect .
That could prove one hell of an expensive sales pitch.

Look at it another way .

IF these things were entirely accepted on every level would more use them ? Would arguments still continue ? Well look closely at the documentation and we have those assurances already so a self answering question .

 

[zac]

The video:

Not going to do the car any good forcing it round a corner with the steering lock going the other way.

 

[Larrynwin]

The video:

Barmy

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