A-frames vs trailers again, sorry! (1 Viewer)

[drago35uk]

Whenever we see a toad/car trailer we always shout

"BUY A CARAVAN !!!"



Broken Link Removed

It keeps us happy on long journeys.

 

[drago35uk]

It does seem obvious if you have to tow anything why not a big spacious caravan with a big spacious car to get around in when you've arrived.

 

[chrisgreen]

It does seem obvious if you have to tow anything why not a big spacious caravan with a big spacious car to get around in when you've arrived.

because sometimes i dont need to tow anything to get away,with a caravan i would always need to tow it,when i use my motorhome for wilding on a beach in the uk i do not need my toad, if i owned a caravan it would restrict me to where i could park up.

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[Larrynwin]

Cant use aires with caravans .

 

[Charlie]

It does seem obvious if you have to tow anything why not a big spacious caravan with a big spacious car to get around in when you've arrived.

Why not a caravan ? Do we really have to justify why we don't want a caravan ? I wouldn't have a caravan full stop. I hate the things !
There are those among us who are educated enough to decide what we want and what we want to spend our hard earnt on.

If we then decide we want to make things more pleasant or easier when we are away by adding a wee car into the mix then why not ? Our needs are determined by my wife's disability which means to get the best out of our somewhat expensive investment I/we are looking into options. Number 1 option is a wee car on an A frame.

Number 1 Non option is to sell our motor home and by a yogurt carton on wheels which I would absolutely Hate driving/towing.

The OP of this thread asks about Aframes and / or trailers. Not caravans..

My apologies but I find it somewhat patronising when its pointed out I/we made the wrong decision. We did not. We may have underestimated the deterioration in my wife's condition which is forcing my hand to sort transport out while we are away. But then I don't have a crystal ball.

In short I sort out transport or our much loved MH will have to go. Be assured it will never be replaced by a blooming caravan.

Also consider.... Whether we are right or wrong on these A frame devices. I still maintain they are FAR less likely to be involved in an adverse situation than a wee car on an A frame. How many times have I seen caravans spread over 3 lanes of the motorways or upside down in a ditch ? Well I do many miles so its one heck of a lot. Have I ever seen or even heard of a situation with an A frame ? Not once.. Honestly not seen one or even heard one.

 

[Bailey58]

Heavily edited but

Number 1 Non option is to sell our motor home and by a yogurt carton on wheels which I would absolutely Hate driving/towing.

I have no opinion on this subject other than it's a choice between a yogurt carton or an ice cream van.

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[Roadracer2002]

Thanks for all your comments.

I phoned the Vehicle Certification Agency
(Midlands VCA Office) today and spoke to a very helpful engineer.

The official view of the VCA is that A-frames used in the way we are discussing here may be OK if being used in the UK but not in Europe, he did not specify any particular country in Europe.

Some A-frame manufacturers have sought type approval for their A-frame, and indeed some have been issued with the appropriate certification. However, that is only for the A-frame itself and once it is attached to a vehicle the legally defined trailer they become, consisting of a type approved car and a type approved A-frame, DOES NOT become a type approved trailer.

I found his comments extremely helpful and it was nice to hear someone impartial confirm what I already knew - A-frame towing is a grey area in the UK! Also, he wasn't aware of any change in legislation that would affect A-frame use.

On another reassuring note, I am encouraged by the fact the Caravan Club are happy to insure a towed car irrespective of it being driven or towed on an A-frame.

Decision made I think.....

 

[drago35uk]

Why not a caravan ? Do we really have to justify why we don't want a caravan ? I wouldn't have a caravan full stop. I hate the things !
There are those among us who are educated enough to decide what we want and what we want to spend our hard earnt on.

If we then decide we want to make things more pleasant or easier when we are away by adding a wee car into the mix then why not ? Our needs are determined by my wife's disability which means to get the best out of our somewhat expensive investment I/we are looking into options. Number 1 option is a wee car on an A frame.

Number 1 Non option is to sell our motor home and by a yogurt carton on wheels which I would absolutely Hate driving/towing.

The OP of this thread asks about Aframes and / or trailers. Not caravans..

My apologies but I find it somewhat patronising when its pointed out I/we made the wrong decision. We did not. We may have underestimated the deterioration in my wife's condition which is forcing my hand to sort transport out while we are away. But then I don't have a crystal ball.

In short I sort out transport or our much loved MH will have to go. Be assured it will never be replaced by a blooming caravan.

Also consider.... Whether we are right or wrong on these A frame devices. I still maintain they are FAR less likely to be involved in an adverse situation than a wee car on an A frame. How many times have I seen caravans spread over 3 lanes of the motorways or upside down in a ditch ? Well I do many miles so its one heck of a lot. Have I ever seen or even heard of a situation with an A frame ? Not once.. Honestly not seen one or even heard one.

I never asked any body to justify anything. When I do something the only person I justify it to is myself. I never ask nor feel the need to justify to anybody.
I bought a motorhome to get rid of towing ...my choice, if that's patronising or questioning decisions then so be it.

 

[zac]

I never asked any body to justify anything. When I do something the only person I justify it to is myself. I never ask nor feel the need to justify to anybody.
I bought a motorhome to get rid of towing ...my choice, if that's patronising or questioning decisions then so be it.

Could not agree more, when I decided i wanted an A-Frame to tow a small smart car i did just that, everybody has a choice, i personally couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me towing a car using an A-Frame, if it suits my needs then that's all that matters.

The op also now seems to have the answer he was looking for

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[davejen]

Be better posting this in the Classifieds section, sounds a good price if thats the RV2 we were discussing earlier in this thread.

i.e. this one here

It IS posted in the classifieds, and yes it is the model as discussed earlier.
Cheers, Dave

 

[davejen]

Tis a good price if ok .

It is in excellent conditon, Iwill try and post some pics when I can take some!

 

[PeteH]

As someone who started caravanning circa 1970. And went to a R-V, when they told my wife she should no longer travel long distances without regular breaks, May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted. I have never been able to understand the "European Phobia" against the practice. But then, That`s Europe!. (Stupidity personified IMHO). The pro`s and cons are well known, and as (allegedly) free persons we can make educated choices according to our will. There are known arguments for and against the practice. Having recently returned to the use of a Motor-home, after a 3 year break during which we had a Caravan, that which we discarded largely because neither myself nor my (disabled) wife could sit comfortably in the Seating, whereas now we have a "Captains" chair each with a leg-rest (side bench). I tow an old Punto on "A" frame. AND IT WORKS FOR US!. It is however a Grey area. having (unlike "Dolly" Frames) never been tested in the law courts. BTW, I Know from experience that my (now) rig is far quicker to set -up than a Caravan!.

IF, I decide in the future to go back to Spain, as we did for many years prior to choosing the USA. I would likely buy a Smart and Trailer it, JUST to avoid the hassle of being "pulled" by Spanish "plod" (3 times). Someone makes (made) a trailer with a folding Draw bar, and that would take up the least space on site. ( one guy I know, put plywood base on the trailer and used it for a Gazebo, to Barbecue in / on!).

Pete

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[Charlie]

It IS posted in the classifieds, and yes it is the model as discussed earlier.
Cheers, Dave

Your advert Mate ...
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/a-frame.116377/

 

[zac]

It IS posted in the classifieds, and yes it is the model as discussed earlier.
Cheers, Dave

Sorry about that cant see past my nose, posted on the advert.

 

[gus-lopez]

The video:

That on its own should be enough to ban them. Utterly ridiculous !
The fact that anyone could even make a video believing that to be
" reversing under control" would ensure that I kept well away from them. It is just shunting something backwards with some iron bolted to the front of a what was a passable car & is now an unsellable piece of scrap.
I wouldn't even look at any car with a view to buying if it had ever been dragged about like that.
The tyres are ruined first time the above is done. The wheel bearings & attached subframe points were never designed for side loading like that.

The A frame was invented to remove disabled vehicles to a place of safety quickly. It attached to the steering arms either side &with ignition unlocked the wheels were steered , not dragged all over the place like that is with the attachments on points not meant for it.
They are not A frames ,just triangulated frames attached to points that were not designed for that purpose.

Mmmm it's hard not to speak though.

Let's face it this is s subject we are never going to agree on.

When I say I don't give a monkeys I mean I don't give a monkeys what other people do ir think. If I decide to buy and use an A frame then that's what I will do.

Anyone who dismisses the paper work supplied with certain devices is completely missing the point. The paperwork is actually very comprehensive and any company supplying it could be held responsible if something within it is incorrect .
That could prove one hell of an expensive sales pitch.

Look at it another way .

IF these things were entirely accepted on every level would more use them ? Would arguments still continue ? Well look closely at the documentation and we have those assurances already so a self answering question .

With videos like the above there is more likelihood of them being banned outright than any chance of acceptance.
You'd stand a slight chance of EU acceptance if they were actually connected to ,& steered, the front wheels like a proper A frame.
Someone else mentioned that some firms modify sub frames & even replace cross members with modified ones. Well that would negate any Certificate of Conformity that any newish vehicles had. In fact it would probably require a new SVA or whatever it is called now.
As for "anyone heard of any accidents/incidents " well there aren't going to be many owning up to pulling the front off of a car. We did have someone a while back who pointed out that the front of his Ka parted company shortly after an mot.& that was a toad. Then you get people saying that the Ka "isn't the best 'toad' " as the front chassis has a tendency to fracture. YES of course it does it wasn't ,along with all the others, designed to be dragged along freewheeling & pushed backwards with the wheels askew.

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[Charlie]

That on its own should be enough to ban them. Utterly ridiculous !
The fact that anyone could even make a video believing that to be
" reversing under control" would ensure that I kept well away from them. It is just shunting something backwards with some iron bolted to the front of a what was a passable car & is now an unsellable piece of scrap.
I wouldn't even look at any car with a view to buying if it had ever been dragged about like that.
The tyres are ruined first time the above is done. The wheel bearings & attached subframe points were never designed for side loading like that.

The A frame was invented to remove disabled vehicles to a place of safety quickly. It attached to the steering arms either side &with ignition unlocked the wheels were steered , not dragged all over the place like that is with the attachments on points not meant for it.
They are not A frames ,just triangulated frames attached to points that were not designed for that purpose.



With videos like the above there is more likelihood of them being banned outright than any chance of acceptance.
You'd stand a slight chance of EU acceptance if they were actually connected to ,& steered, the front wheels like a proper A frame.
Someone else mentioned that some firms modify sub frames & even replace cross members with modified ones. Well that would negate any Certificate of Conformity that any newish vehicles had. In fact it would probably require a new SVA or whatever it is called now.
As for "anyone heard of any accidents/incidents " well there aren't going to be many owning up to pulling the front off of a car. We did have someone a while back who pointed out that the front of his Ka parted company shortly after an mot.& that was a toad. Then you get people saying that the Ka "isn't the best 'toad' " as the front chassis has a tendency to fracture. YES of course it does it wasn't ,along with all the others, designed to be dragged along freewheeling & pushed backwards with the wheels askew.

So you like them then ?

The story on the KA if I remember correctly was that the front of the car suffered minor distortion after being a toad for 9 years... It was questioned if the damage was done due to reversing with a defective A frame or an A frame that was its self defective. No answer was forthcoming as far as I can recall.

You can't dismiss the lack of incidents noted with A frames due to owners not shouting about them. Quite the contrary I bet they would be sung from the roof tops especially here on this forum where some love to moan about everything.

 

[pappajohn]

Not going to do the car any good forcing it round a corner with the steering lock going the other way.

Apart from that point.......

The wheels being in opposite lock will put an extreme force on the sliding hitch to a point of locking the toad brakes making it impossible to reverse......but only if they are correctly adjusted in the first place, which they obviously arent....if they are even connected.

Just had a shufty and it aint a sliding hitch in the video so it either doesnt have brakes or they are electric.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

The video:

What a message, where is the mechanical sympathy? Idiots!
An advert if ever I saw one to say they are promoting the wrong message.
I have a toad and would never dream of reversing more than a couple of feet in a straight line.
A frames are good for what they are designed for I.e. Towing.
As for the reversing bit making them illegal, the video proves it can be done (very badly).
Anyone remember the Yamaha FS1E? It had to be fitted with pedals to comply as a moped that did over 30mph. I wish there was some video of them being pedalled lol, like when I had to to prove to plod that I was in charge of a moped and not a motorcycle (16yr old)!

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[pappajohn]

Cant use aires with caravans .

Thats fine....the UK doesnt really have any aires.

 

[pappajohn]

the video proves it can be done (very badly).

Yes it can....but not in a legal manner.

Exerpt from Gov.uk website

(Quote)
From 1 October 1988 the
inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage
automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an “A” frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
(Unquote)

The wheels being in the opposite lock will impose an unacceptable sustained drag.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies

 

[9526]

Anyone remember the Yamaha FS1E? It had to be fitted with pedals to comply as a moped that did over 30mph. I wish there was some video of them being pedalled lol, like when I had to to prove to plod that I was in charge of a moped and not a motorcycle (16yr old)!

The really amusing thing (to a fellow 16 year old fizzy owner) was that you could engage the pedals, then rev the bike and marvel at the rotational speed of the plastic pedals (which were scratched to show hero status)

You had to keep your ankles out of the way though

Anyway back on topic.............. Toads, Trailers (and caravans)

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[Steve and Denise]

We tow a small car with an a frame in the UK works a treat for us, fitted new £800 by a firm in Chesterfield and I don't give a ----- what people think it is all about what works for you.

 

[Larrynwin]

Thats fine....the UK doesnt really have any aires.

Guess I knew that.

 

[Charlie]

I'm learning.... Learning all the time...

I learnt some time ago too take no notice when on this forum when people shout and scream about things that really don't need to be shouted and screamed about.
Problem is I never really learn.

I will do what suits me/us and providing I'm breaking no laws will do it irrespective of what others say.

In this case it will be me going out and buying an A frame and a wee car...

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

Yes it can....but not in a legal manner.

Exerpt from Gov.uk website

(Quote)
From 1 October 1988 the
inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage
automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an “A” frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
(Unquote)

The wheels being in the opposite lock will impose an unacceptable sustained drag.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies

Possibly but if the overrun coupling is set up correctly, reverse loads that are imposed gently will allow the gas damper to shorten and not operate the brake.
Even so, the Police do not have any equipment to measure the drag so unless the outfit is subject to very technical testing the issue cannot be proved. There is no regulation as to how far the reverse manoeuvre is to be performed. The opposite lock drag would obviously fail a visual test as the wheels do not rotate but as said originally, only a complete idiot would treat the toad so roughly. Reversing a couple of feet would satisfy the legal bit and not turn the wheels or lock/drag the brakes.
As others have said, the legal status is debatable but as it has not been tested in court, the U.K. Stance is that it cannot be illegal unless there is a law to say so.

 

[Charlie]

Possibly but if the overrun coupling is set up correctly, reverse loads that are imposed gently will allow the gas damper to shorten and not operate the brake.
Even so, the Police do not have any equipment to measure the drag so unless the outfit is subject to very technical testing the issue cannot be proved. There is no regulation as to how far the reverse manoeuvre is to be performed. The opposite lock drag would obviously fail a visual test as the wheels do not rotate but as said originally, only a complete idiot would treat the toad so roughly. Reversing a couple of feet would satisfy the legal bit and not turn the wheels or lock/drag the brakes.
As others have said, the legal status is debatable but as it has not been tested in court, the U.K. Stance is that it cannot be illegal unless there is a law to say so.

That's probably the best most informative and acurate post I've read in these now frequent arguments on this subject...

Shame more cant post good information like that without shouting..

 

[PeteH]

As others have said, the legal status is debatable but as it has not been tested in court, the U.K. Stance is that it cannot be illegal unless there is a law to say so.

Which I my Point exactly. Unless or until they are the subject of a "test" case (as happened with "Dolly" frames) then the legality is not an issue. Any debate as to the "technical" aspect of use is just that, a debate!.

BTW. US Style "tow dollys" are completely reversible!. I know, I brought a Rental car from Florida to Texas on a "U-Haul" one, Behind the R-V when we Bought It!, It is also IMHO an even better device than an "A" frame but has been judged as "legal only for the recovery of disabled vehicles" by the Courts Circa 1975ish.

Pete

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[tonyidle]

The difference between the UK and our Continental cousins on this issue is that the UK is happy to regard the toad as 'trailer' once it is attached to another vehicle via an A frame so, as extensively debated on more than one occasion, with caveats, it is reasonable to assume it is legal in the UK. Whereas over the Channel, at least in a number of Continental countries, it is still regarded as a car. Separate, and unrelated to A-frames as such, legislation is in place that makes it an offence to tow a car (by any means) unless it is broken down. It is therefore risky at best to use an A frame in those countries.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

BTW. US Style "tow dollys" are completely reversible!. I know, I brought a Rental car from Florida to Texas on a "U-Haul" one, Behind the R-V when we Bought It!, It is also IMHO an even better device than an "A" frame but has been judged as "legal only for the recovery of disabled vehicles" by the Courts Circa 1975ish.

Pete

The reason a tow dolly (ambulance) is not legal is because the 'trailer' must have all wheels braked if fitted. Putting the non braked dolly under either end of the car being towed reduces the braked wheels at best to 2 of them (assuming an electrical or inertia system is used).

 

[PeteH]

The reason a tow dolly (ambulance) is not legal is because the 'trailer' must have all wheels braked if fitted. Putting the non braked dolly under either end of the car being towed reduces the braked wheels at best to 2 of them (assuming an electrical or inertia system is used).

ALL the ones I have seen ARE fully braked, Either electrical or "overrun". And are low C-G, making them very stable, taking little room up when on site or stored. But of course our "unfit for Purpose" UK / Euro, "Control freak / Jobsworths". cannot see the benefits.

Pete

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