PVC on display at the NEC....too cheap?

[Terry]

Commercial Vans are a massive market. PVCs are a niche market and converters don't place orders for tens of thousands each year. The RHD ones for the UK conversion market are going to be a very small fraction of the overall number. More like hundreds than thousands, and that includes a lot of options that the UK White Van Man doesn't need or want. RHD vans are probably coming off the assembly lines in relatively small batches compared to LHD ones. The number of RHD vans with paint finishes other than Van Man White is a tiny percentage so other colours are done separately in small batches and that adds to cost and delays. Some Fiat colours have got a bad reputation for the paint quality including the notorious flaking roof paint. It might be OK for builders who are less fussy than us.

Hence we get very long lead times for MHs with multiple base vehicle options and body colours to suit individual buyers. I placed an Order in October (NEC) for delivery in the following April that eventually stretched to June handover. That was before Covid when things really went to pot.

Fiat used to have 85% of the market for conversions and it was their policy to target this leisure market with specs to suit converters. After they became part of Stellantis that priority seems to have changed. Now they have only about half the MH market so we can't expect Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen to go the extra mile to defend a dwindling market share. We are a very small part of the overall Stellantis customer base.

While I can agree with you to a degree it doesn’t put a lot of costs to a manufacturing company. Be it LHD or RHD they have already gone to the costs of making steering racks etc and at the bolting up stage makes no difference be it R/LHD. Indeed they have researched the market share they expect.Stellantis knew what they wanted from the start of manufacturing when they made a wider vehicle than anyone else chasing the leisure market.
The only thing that has changed for them is that Ford, VW, and Mercs are chasing some of that market and discounting vehicles to grab a share. Sure using your 85/15 % share is still a very sizeable market across the world.
It’s not the price of the vehicles that’s affecting making RHD/LHD it’s what customers are prepared to pay for whichever vehicle they think is best value. Lots of Fords are beginning to to used in leisure market in the last few years.
Out of interest was your wait /delay more down to having a vehicle made RHD by a foreign company that usually made LHD vehicles? That would cause the makers to order you a base vehicle that was out of the ordinary. Bit like if you ask a British maker to make a LHD van for you

 

[EuroTrotters]

I quite like the look of the Rimor £56,000 new.

But I would like LHD with Automatic Gearbox £3k ! I would have to knock them down on that price

Rimor Horus 45 2025

motorhomesandcaravansltd.co.uk

 

[Terry]

I may be wrong but seem to recall that the UK motorhome market is maybe 1/5 the size of the German one and maybe half the size of the French one. Then add all the other European countries.

Rounding up, maybe the UK is about 10% of the European motorhome sales?

Then take into account that at least some buyers purchase locally manufactured and marketed products. In the UK maybe half of PVC sales?

So possibly 1 in 20 of the vans produced in Europe are done to RHD spec.

Even 1in 20 is a sizeable market share on WW van market. I think you’re getting confused/ restricted by only thinking of MH market not actual van market share which is where it would make little or no difference to the cost of vehicle making.

 

[The Wino]

Even 1in 20 is a sizeable market share on WW van market. I think you’re getting confused/ restricted by only thinking of MH market not actual van market share which is where it would make little or no difference to the cost of vehicle making.

It's not the worldwide market it's Europe! Also bear in mind that anyone anywhere in the EU can very easily purchase in any country like we could in the past and competition and a mass market is likely to keep prices down

 

[PaulW2]

Even 1in 20 is a sizeable market share on WW van market. I think you’re getting confused/ restricted by only thinking of MH market not actual van market share which is where it would make little or no difference to the cost of vehicle making.

We're only talking about the motorhome market

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[Terry]

We're only talking about the motorhome market

Like all threads it diverged into a slightly different /off topic way

 

[bschaldon]

French, it is Pilote entry level brand.

We looked at a Joa motorhome at the show. Horribly cheap fittings. Walked straight out again.

 

[Nanniemate]

Anyway going back to my 17 year old builders van with beds and a cooker............

 

[EuroTrotters]

We looked at a Joa motorhome at the show. Horribly cheap fittings. Walked straight out again.

Our motorhomes and camper vans l Joa Camp

The 60 years of experience of the Groupe Pilote have been put into our vans and motor homes: durability, solidity, reliability, made in France

www.joa-camp.com

That bad?

 

[Emmit]

Commercial Vans are a massive market. PVCs are a niche market and converters don't place orders for tens of thousands each year. The RHD ones for the UK conversion market are going to be a very small fraction of the overall number. More like hundreds than thousands, and that includes a lot of options that the UK White Van Man doesn't need or want. RHD vans are probably coming off the assembly lines in relatively small batches compared to LHD ones. The number of RHD vans with paint finishes other than Van Man White is a tiny percentage so other colours are done separately in small batches and that adds to cost and delays. Some Fiat colours have got a bad reputation for the paint quality including the notorious flaking roof paint. It might be OK for builders who are less fussy than us.

Hence we get very long lead times for MHs with multiple base vehicle options and body colours to suit individual buyers. I placed an Order in October (NEC) for delivery in the following April that eventually stretched to June handover. That was before Covid when things really went to pot.

Fiat used to have 85% of the market for conversions and it was their policy to target this leisure market with specs to suit converters. After they became part of Stellantis that priority seems to have changed. Now they have only about half the MH market so we can't expect Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen to go the extra mile to defend a dwindling market share. We are a very small part of the overall Stellantis customer base.

You're just about bang on with Fiat having half the market.
Same french PVC mag.
Fiat 47%
Citroen 20% (includes 6% Peugeot)
Ford Transit 18%

Then, there's VW MAN Mercedes and Renault.

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[SpeedyDux]

While I can agree with you to a degree it doesn’t put a lot of costs to a manufacturing company. Be it LHD or RHD they have already gone to the costs of making steering racks etc and at the bolting up stage makes no difference be it R/LHD. Indeed they have researched the market share they expect.Stellantis knew what they wanted from the start of manufacturing when they made a wider vehicle than anyone else chasing the leisure market.
The only thing that has changed for them is that Ford, VW, and Mercs are chasing some of that market and discounting vehicles to grab a share. Sure using your 85/15 % share is still a very sizeable market across the world.
It’s not the price of the vehicles that’s affecting making RHD/LHD it’s what customers are prepared to pay for whichever vehicle they think is best value. Lots of Fords are beginning to to used in leisure market in the last few years.
Out of interest was your wait /delay more down to having a vehicle made RHD by a foreign company that usually made LHD vehicles? That would cause the makers to order you a base vehicle that was out of the ordinary. Bit like if you ask a British maker to make a LHD van for you

I understood from the sales guy on the dealer stand at the NEC that UK dealers for my make of PVC had a mix of vans allocated to them by the converter for the coming year. A fixed number of off-the-shelf UK spec models in white, that all included a couple of (effectively non-optional) "Packs" on top of the base price; plus a fixed allocation for that upcoming year that could be specced-up with extra cost options, such as metallic paint, more powerful engines, Comfortmatic autobox, alloys, reversing camera and better stereo, half-leather upholstery, etc. etc. A limited RHD allocation, in effect. First come, first served for placing a bespoke Order. Added pressure on the more fussy private buyer!

Whether that kind of rationing reflected the limited number of RHD base vans that Fiat had allocated to the Converters for that year is not known to me. I suspect that could be the case. In effect there could be an overall limit on the number of RHD base vehicles, decided by the managers at (now) Stellantis to make efficient use of the available capacity of their Sevel van factory in Italy, to prioritise more cost-effective LHD production especially for the commercial mass market. Just my theory.

Incidentally, the other important factor behind the way that the Converters fix their annual price lists for the UK RHD market is the fluctuating Sterling / Euro exchange rate. In October 2016 I understood that a fixed rate of £1 / 1,19 Euro rate was used for the new 2017 price list. When the Converter takes on the exchange rate risk in order to provide price certainty for UK dealers and buyers, that obviously can inflate UK list prices when compared to the lower list prices seen on the continent by Funsters. Some EU dealers adopt a different approach allowing the UK buyer to pay in Euros on delivery day. The currency exchange rate risk transfers to the buyer. I think it is more common in the UK market for there to be a Converter's fixed retail list price for that year shown in Sterling. The UK dealer may guarantee that the agreed Sterling price shown on the Order will not change before delivery day, however long the delay. Either way, we UK buyers are very likely to be paying a premium in return for the comfort of price certainty.

 

[Coolcats]

If you are unfortunate enough to crash, occupants of a PVC will probably have better chances of emerging unscathed than occupants of a coachbuilt especially many A-Class ones. There are horrendous photos of comprehensively demolished coachbuilts on the interwebby. Stay safe!

That’s an interesting notion, but don’t forget the energy dissipated by an A Class being destroyed in an accident may just save your life. It’s complex but it’s also why crumple zones help to save lives

 

[SpeedyDux]

That’s an interesting notion, but don’t forget the energy dissipated by an A Class being destroyed in an accident may just save your life. It’s complex but it’s also why crumple zones help to save lives

I am not convinced that complete self-disassembly in the event of a crash is a safety feature by design.

Hardly any coachbuilts have been crash-tested. NCAP ratings ... don't even ask.

 

[Coolcats]

I am not convinced that complete self-disassembly in the event of a crash is a safety feature by design.

Hardly any coachbuilts have been crash-tested. NCAP ratings ... don't even ask.

not disagreeing with you, one thing in the early ish days of Lotus they were finding some drivers and passengers were surviving crashes which if the car had been made from steel would have killed them. The thought being the energy dissipated by the destruction of the fibreglass body help people to survive.

 

[Beltie]

While I can agree with you to a degree it doesn’t put a lot of costs to a manufacturing company. Be it LHD or RHD they have already gone to the costs of making steering racks etc and at the bolting up stage makes no difference be it R/LHD. Indeed they have researched the market share they expect.Stellantis knew what they wanted from the start of manufacturing when they made a wider vehicle than anyone else chasing the leisure market.
The only thing that has changed for them is that Ford, VW, and Mercs are chasing some of that market and discounting vehicles to grab a share. Sure using your 85/15 % share is still a very sizeable market across the world.
It’s not the price of the vehicles that’s affecting making RHD/LHD it’s what customers are prepared to pay for whichever vehicle they think is best value. Lots of Fords are beginning to to used in leisure market in the last few years.
Out of interest was your wait /delay more down to having a vehicle made RHD by a foreign company that usually made LHD vehicles? That would cause the makers to order you a base vehicle that was out of the ordinary. Bit like if you ask a British maker to make a LHD van for you

As far as I know, the only British based van maker is Vauxhall, also producing under Nissan/Renault names. They represent a tiny proportion of the UK motorhome market.

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[Peppadog]

A panel van is an original manufacturer design. A coachbuilt or integrated motorhome is not. The van is likely to come off best. But that assumes all the fittings and furniture stay where fixed. I would doubt that in all types. Having the vehicles internal contents flying through the windscreen in a head on collision, and taking you with it, is unlikely to be good for our health. Airbags will also be useless in that scenario.

 

[Peppadog]

As far as I know, the only British based van maker is Vauxhall, also producing under Nissan/Renault names. They represent a tiny proportion of the UK motorhome market.

Yes. I think thats right now that Ford no longer make Transit’s here.
Much of the van output from the Elsmere Port factory is exported. So unless they are going to other RHD countries like Australia, NZ, South Africa etc. they will be LHD.

I don’t think there is much if any cost solely related to factory RHD / LHD costs. They are designed in features like in cars, which can nowadays have one of each going down the production lines.
Additionally, most German van conversions still fit a LHD layout in the van regardless of which side the steering wheel is. There is no cost difference there either!

 

[Dorwyn]

Going back to the OP's title of the thread, I was thinking how can it be too cheap? How manufacturers price it is down to their marketing. Loss leaders is a common practice. The finish is down to the build quality at the manufacturing department, fittings down to the cheap parts they all use. My previous AT/Trigano/?Roller Team? PVC was of very good build quality, yet the cheapest of the line. The Malibu at the time was 20k more. It looked very smart, but hardly worth the difference.

 

[Peppadog]

Thats true of almost everything.

 

[DucatoMan2]

The Expedition does have similar layout to the V-Line but there are key differences to keep the price down. Tiny gas bottle inside rather than underslung tank. Microwave missing (actually I think that's good). No solar. No awning. No panoramic front roof window and simpler ceiling lining withoit the little stowage pockets. Essentially it keeps it all basic rather than the bling of the other vans. That could for some be a good thing, allowing say you to do your own upgrades to say power such as lithium rather than having to pay for a pants system that still wasn't up to it in the more sophisticated van.

But seriously do look at the build quality of any Autotrail vehicle. They couldn't even get good ones to the show. I saw in one V-line 540 the bathroom wall panel mastic seals had already split and that was only the Wednesday

Pretty much matches my experience. I was a little concerned at what had been cut too (especially at £38k in 21). Peter's review gave me enough confidence to order unseen (Pandemic). After over 2 years full time and towing down to the Tropic of cancer I'm very happy. Sure there a few things that needed repair or upgrade, but nothing serious. Spent a few grand on solar/wifi/cross climates/sumo/proplates/squadra and glad to have spent on those rather than more blingy interior. Probably the only item I'd really criticise is the sink.

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[steve69]

Going back to the OP's title of the thread, I was thinking how can it be too cheap?

When there is a huge price disparity as there appeared to be with this particular van and other similar ones, you can't help wondering if you have missed something.
You get what you pay for, and all that.

 

[DandJ]

When there is a huge price disparity as there appeared to be with this particular van and other similar ones, you can't help wondering if you have missed something.
You get what you pay for, and all that.

I agree...up to a certain point....but there are cases where the simple addition of a brand name adds tens, hundreds or thousands on to a price. (Look at Skoda, Seat, VW, Audi...)

 

[gus-lopez]

The advertised prices for ones in the UK are likely to have in the region of £25,000 worth of extras.

I'd be amazed if that was anything but profiteering Delivery is 1k tops.

The difference is easily made up for by the extra for RHD and UK delivery charge.

There is no 'extra ' for rhd The van ,whether a pvc, or chassis cab or open base is supplied to the converters from the factory as either right or left hand drive

We are a very small part of the overall Stellantis customer base.

& they need to keep the europeans happy as in the states it is an absolute disaster with many commercila & family busienesses that sel there stuff going to the wal due to the inflated prices. Dodge & Chrydsler sales are down 43 & 47% & Jeep isn't far behind.who wants to buy rubbish when you can get 2 comparble models from kia,hyundai, ford, etc; for what one stellantis costs? The Chrysler family are even trying to by the company back from Stellantis rather than see it liquidated

e of £1 / 1,19 Euro rate was used for the new 2017 price list.

What happens tomorrow then if it went back to 1pound= 1,60€??
Like I said many years ago & before the 2008 crash. 1 ppound for all of them has = 1,50€ish.
The 20k car in the Uk in 2008 was 30k in €'s when the roof fell in & parity was achieved you didn't see the UK model at 32k pounds nor the euro model at 20keuros? Nor in any of the years after?

That’s an interesting notion, but don’t forget the energy dissipated by an A Class being destroyed in an accident may just save your life. It’s complex but it’s also why crumple zones help to save lives

There are no 'crumple zones' in an A class .You are lucky if there is even a passenger air bag. You will be killed by the cabinets hitting you from behind.
Amazingly it is one of the only things on the road that legally requires no type of crash testing?

As far as I know, the only British based van maker is Vauxhall, also producing under Nissan/Renault names. They represent a tiny proportion of the UK motorhome market.

& opel,under the Vauxhall overall brand,sell just 8% in the UK yet that has contributed 32% to the overall company profits.Profiteering? They are all the same.

 

[Wh05apk]

I'd be amazed if that was anything but profiteering Delivery is 1k tops.

There is no 'extra ' for rhd The van ,whether a pvc, or chassis cab or open base is supplied to the converters from the factory as either right or left hand drive

& they need to keep the europeans happy as in the states it is an absolute disaster with many commercila & family busienesses that sel there stuff going to the wal due to the inflated prices. Dodge & Chrydsler sales are down 43 & 47% & Jeep isn't far behind.who wants to buy rubbish when you can get 2 comparble models from kia,hyundai, ford, etc; for what one stellantis costs? The Chrysler family are even trying to by the company back from Stellantis rather than see it liquidated

What happens tomorrow then if it went back to 1pound= 1,60€??
Like I said many years ago & before the 2008 crash. 1 ppound for all of them has = 1,50€ish.
The 20k car in the Uk in 2008 was 30k in €'s when the roof fell in & parity was achieved you didn't see the UK model at 32k pounds nor the euro model at 20keuros? Nor in any of the years after?


There are no 'crumple zones' in an A class .You are lucky if there is even a passenger air bag. You will be killed by the cabinets hitting you from behind.
Amazingly it is one of the only things on the road that legally requires no type of crash testing?

& opel,under the Vauxhall overall brand,sell just 8% in the UK yet that has contributed 32% to the overall company profits.Profiteering? They are all the same.

I think you will find the crash protection pretty similar, the protection is provided by the crash beams etc under the bodywork, even the tin panels on a coachbuilt or pvc are only flimsy now and provide minimal impact protection.

 

[Peppadog]

…….

What happens tomorrow then if it went back to 1pound= 1,60€??
Like I said many years ago & before the 2008 crash. 1 pound for all of them has = 1,50€ish.
The 20k car in the Uk in 2008 was 30k in €'s when the roof fell in & parity was achieved you didn't see the UK model at 32k pounds nor the euro model at 20keuros? Nor in any of the years after?

Really? We bought a holiday home south of Cadiz, Spain in, I think 2000. The exchange rate went in my favour just in time for me to get euros at 1.40€. When it had been lower a week before we paid for it. When we sold it in 2011, the rate was €1.14. Today it is €1.19.
So you gotta go back a long way to justify that. They are just spikes that make little
difference

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[gus-lopez]

Really? We bought a holiday home south of Cadiz, Spain in, I think 2000. The exchange rate went in my favour just in time for me to get euros at 1.40€. When it had been lower a week before we paid for it. When we sold it in 2011, the rate was €1.14. Today it is €1.19.
So you gotta go back a long way to justify that. They are just spikes that make little
difference

I bought in 2002 I changed most of the money at 1,58>,1,60€
i brought rest of the money over around 1,49>,1,50€ in the next couple of years.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I'd be amazed if that was anything but profiteering Delivery is 1k tops.

There is no 'extra ' for rhd The van ,whether a pvc, or chassis cab or open base is supplied to the converters from the factory as either right or left hand drive

& they need to keep the europeans happy as in the states it is an absolute disaster with many commercila & family busienesses that sel there stuff going to the wal due to the inflated prices. Dodge & Chrydsler sales are down 43 & 47% & Jeep isn't far behind.who wants to buy rubbish when you can get 2 comparble models from kia,hyundai, ford, etc; for what one stellantis costs? The Chrysler family are even trying to by the company back from Stellantis rather than see it liquidated

What happens tomorrow then if it went back to 1pound= 1,60€??
Like I said many years ago & before the 2008 crash. 1 ppound for all of them has = 1,50€ish.
The 20k car in the Uk in 2008 was 30k in €'s when the roof fell in & parity was achieved you didn't see the UK model at 32k pounds nor the euro model at 20keuros? Nor in any of the years after?


There are no 'crumple zones' in an A class .You are lucky if there is even a passenger air bag. You will be killed by the cabinets hitting you from behind.
Amazingly it is one of the only things on the road that legally requires no type of crash testing?

& opel,under the Vauxhall overall brand,sell just 8% in the UK yet that has contributed 32% to the overall company profits.Profiteering? They are all the same.

Good post.

For decades the UK has been described by the global car industry as "Treasure Island" where manufacturers and importers could rinse the buyers. The shift away from outright purchase to leasing has probably made UK profit margins even bigger, because it is almost too easy for anybody with a steady income to afford monthly payments for a prestige car / big SUV. That hides big fat commissions for dealers and other credit brokers too. There is a current mis-selling scandal going through the works. TV ads by claims farmers, yet again.

A while ago I saw a Report that compared various countries by way of car pricing. Countries that had no car factories had the cheapest new cars, all imports obv. How odd! Maybe if the UK were to shut down Nissan, Vauxhall, Ford etc. prices might fall. But it will still require a major paradigm shift among buyers. The new disruptors are the Chinese brands but there is huge differential pricing between the UK and Chinese domestic markets. What mugs we are.

 

[PaulW2]

I think you will find the crash protection pretty similar, the protection is provided by the crash beams etc under the bodywork, even the tin panels on a coachbuilt or pvc are only flimsy now and provide minimal impact protection.

It's an interesting question. Hymer have this to say on the difference between A and B class vans:

"In addition, the front end inherited by Class B+ RVs from the base vehicle makes them safer, as the crumple zone is slightly larger than on Class A motorhomes."

 

[Peppadog]

Good post.

For decades the UK has been described by the global car industry as "Treasure Island" where manufacturers and importers could rinse the buyers. The shift away from outright purchase to leasing has probably made UK profit margins even bigger, because it is almost too easy for anybody with a steady income to afford monthly payments for a prestige car / big SUV. That hides big fat commissions for dealers and other credit brokers too. There is a current mis-selling scandal going through the works. TV ads by claims farmers, yet again.

A while ago I saw a Report that compared various countries by way of car pricing. Countries that had no car factories had the cheapest new cars, all imports obv. How odd! Maybe if the UK were to shut down Nissan, Vauxhall, Ford etc. prices might fall. But it will still require a major paradigm shift among buyers. The new disruptors are the Chinese brands but there is huge differential pricing between the UK and Chinese domestic markets. What mugs we are.

Yep. Spot on. As I said in an earlier post. The correct price is what the market will stand. We Brits stand it!
First hand example: my company sells a product to a UK diy group. Retail price pre-covid was £200. The ex-factory price (China) has only risen by about 5% since. Although shipping container costs have gone right up, fallen right back and gone back up a bit since. Over 3.1/2 years that is. As soon as demand shot up post covid, the retail price went up to £300, even £350. Its back to just under £300 now. But should be £250 to allow for general increased costs. Power etc. Demand is still high, so it ain’t likely to go down soon. The market is standing it!!
However, in the motorhome market, consumer demand must have fallen back as manufacturers are all now offering lots of ‘entry level’ spec vans, all be it often with base vehicle upgrades like auto. Probably because thats what Fiat etc. send them.
As said. Treasure Island

 

[Wh05apk]

It's an interesting question. Hymer have this to say on the difference between A and B class vans:

"In addition, the front end inherited by Class B+ RVs from the base vehicle makes them safer, as the crumple zone is slightly larger than on Class A motorhomes."

That's interesting, I had always assumed the "body" was really just cosmetic in effect, but glad we have a coach built now

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