IH Upgrading to Lithium Battery: A Confusion

[Fragle]

As the title says. We have an IH N680CFL on a crafter base and would like to upgrade the single battery lead acid I think straight swap to lithium.

I have been to Vanbitz when we bought the van and the cost for full lithium and inverter 4-5k. I have no problem with this. I only really discussed a full upgrade and the price is what it is.
But then on talking to IH they are saying really only they can do this as it requires a complete rewire of the van. Anyone else will invalidate the warranty.
Ok so I stepped back from that and purchased the Afferiy power bank 2300w and folding solar panels and this worked excellent on our 90 days earlier this year in Spain Power for Starlink, charging van and air fryer. But occasionally I would get a low power warning on the van leisure battery so I'm thinking of lithium as a lightweight way of doubling capacity.

Again spoke with IH and again the have said I can't upgrade just the battery to Lithium without rewire. Changing battery will lead to issues and invalidate warranty. Although they did say others have put lithium in

To me this doesn't sound right. Surly they are 12v batteries

To be honest IH although a great van and people are very polite they are not a patch on Geoff Cox customer service for information and helpfulness (previous 3 Adria)
Even a simple question regarding permanent live for the next base camera is rebuffed with a can't say or point you in the right direction just incase it's wrong or causes damage. But that's another story

The charger is a CB 516-3. This does not mention lithium in the instructions but does have a lead acid/gel switch.

Can anyone with the electrical knowledge enlighten me more on why they would say this. I don't understand why any cables would need upgrade on a battery change? Am I wrong? I have given up asking at IH now. Any help appreciated

This is the data sheet for CB516-3

The charging process takes place in four stages:
Maximum current battery charging until the charging voltage is reached. NOTE: the charging voltage can be reached only if the battery is fully efficient.
When the charging voltage is reached the battery charger continues to work at continuous voltage for 90 minutes (lead-acid batteries) or 8 hours (lead-gel batteries).
Continuous voltage maintenance at 13.8 V (gel batt.) or 13.5 V (acid batt.).
After 10 hours of maintenance the battery charger switches to the Stand-by position and charges again only if the battery voltage is lower than 13 V.
The switching high frequency technology allows to obtain excellent performances with limited weight and dimensions.

• INPUT TECHNICAL DATA
• Nominal voltage : 240 Vac ±10 %
• Frequency : 50Hz
• Maximum power : 250 W
• Protection fuse : 2 A (5x20 glass)
• Security on/off switch 230 V
• OUTPUT TECHNICAL DATA
• Maximum voltage : 14,3 Vdc (Lead-acid /Gel) - 14,1 Vdc (Lead-acid)
• Maintenance voltage : 13,8 V (Lead-acid /Gel) - 13,5 V (Lead-acid)
• Maximum current : 16 A
• Charging line : IUoU
• Battery type selector : Lead-acid / Gel
• Short-circuit and polarity inversion protected 15 °C
• Thermal protection : Yes
• Mains signal : 12V 50mA
• TECHNICAL DATA
• Efficiency : 86%
• Room temperature : 0 ÷ 50 °C
• Ventilation : Forced, automatic changing regulation
• Protection degree : IP 30
• Mains connection : "mate-n-lock" 3 poles connector
• Battery connection : "mate-n-lock" 4 poles connector
• Case : Nylon + fiber glass, self-extinguishing
• Dimensions : 180 x 140 x 85 mm
• Weight : 1Kg

 

[Nirvanauk]

Can I ask who you spoke to at IH?

 

[Fragle]

Can I ask who you spoke to at IH?

John Docherty Aftersales. I had to take the van back to have some paintwork done as I noticed a mark in the roof where a screw from the inside when building the van was to long and pushed up from inside. Now as well as all be it small crack in the paint to repair that they have acknowledged and done. I asked and they said they would check just incase screw was still touching the roof. I have no conformation that this has been done and can't see how they could get to it so quickly. Nevermind we live and learn.

 

[Nirvanauk]

Fragle have sent you a PM

 

[Bobby-gg]

I've an older ih, so warranty not valid, but when I upgraded to lithium I completely rewired the charging system, from alternator, to b2b, to lithium, plus removed the original CBE charger and installed a victron smart charger in it's place

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[Fragle]

I've an older ih, so warranty not valid, but when I upgraded to lithium I completely rewired the charging system, from alternator, to b2b, to lithium, plus removed the original CBE charger and installed a victron smart charger in it's place

I'm still under warranty until Dec so might wait until then. But need to look into Lithium as we mostly go off grid so need more useable 12v

 

[AdrianChen]

The charger is a CB 516-3. This does not mention lithium in the instructions but does have a lead acid/gel switch.

Our CBE 516-3 chargers had a de-sulphation phase as the first step, this gave 15.2v. It was automatically switched on if the battery was deemed to need it, I have no idea what would trigger it, so we changed the charger when we upgraded the gels to Lithium, on the basis that if for some reason the charger did push out 15.2v, it might damage the lithiums' cells.

CBE manual extract:
Phase 1: Desulphation - when switching on the
battery charger, only if needed, the battery
is charged at 15.2V until the current
exceeds 2A or for a maximum of 2 hours.

Also with the larger lithium capacity (430AH), the two CBE 516's were not going to be capable of charging the batteries quickly, and I wasn't sure they were designed with 10-15hours continuous maximum output in mind.....

Our van needed a few things changed simply because the Lithiums can accept a huge current (400AH) when charging and it used a split charge relay not a B2B which is needed to a) protect the cables from too high a current and b) the alternator, so we ran some new cables, added a B2B and disarmed the split charge relay (part of the factory installed CBE DS470 fusebox).

So far after 2 years all is good - the vast majority of the vans wiring and its fusebox panel etc remains untouched, with the feed into the system from the batteries using the same fuse value and cable size, only the batteries and charging system have been changed. Not sure what attitude the manufacturer might take if I claimed on the warranty for anything electrical, but it will be running out soon anyhow.

 

[Just smiffy]

Certain things will need to be added and taken away and the system configured for lithium to get the best out of it, you could for instance just change the battery for a lithium and run it on the gel setting from the chargers and I don’t see how on earth that could invalidate warranty…?
But to get the best you’ll need the right chargers to put the power back in to a lithium from what you take out…

Once out of warranty take it to our own very experienced funsters RogerIvy nigelivy at https://offgridpower.solutions/ they have superior knowledge and will fit what you need and a discount thrown in too….

 

[Fragle]

Our CBE 516-3 chargers had a de-sulphation phase as the first step, this gave 15.2v. It was automatically switched on if the battery was deemed to need it, I have no idea what would trigger it, so we changed the charger when we upgraded the gels to Lithium, on the basis that if for some reason the charger did push out 15.2v, it might damage the lithiums' cells.

CBE manual extract:
Phase 1: Desulphation - when switching on the
battery charger, only if needed, the battery
is charged at 15.2V until the current
exceeds 2A or for a maximum of 2 hours.

Also with the larger lithium capacity (430AH), the two CBE 516's were not going to be capable of charging the batteries quickly, and I wasn't sure they were designed with 10-15hours continuous maximum output in mind.....

Our van needed a few things changed simply because the Lithiums can accept a huge current (400AH) when charging and it used a split charge relay not a B2B which is needed to a) protect the cables from too high a current and b) the alternator, so we ran some new cables, added a B2B and disarmed the split charge relay (part of the factory installed CBE DS470 fusebox).

So far after 2 years all is good - the vast majority of the vans wiring and its fusebox panel etc remains untouched, with the feed into the system from the batteries using the same fuse value and cable size, only the batteries and charging system have been changed. Not sure what attitude the manufacturer might take if I claimed on the warranty for anything electrical, but it will be running out soon anyhow.

I think your right. It's the alternator to battery side cables that will need upgrade with CBE

 

[Fragle]

Certain things will need to be added and taken away and the system configured for lithium to get the best out of it, you could for instance just change the battery for a lithium and run it on the gel setting from the chargers and I don’t see how on earth that could invalidate warranty…?
But to get the best you’ll need the right chargers to put the power back in to a lithium from what you take out…

Once out of warranty take it to our own very experienced funsters RogerIvy nigelivy at https://offgridpower.solutions/ they have superior knowledge and will fit what you need and a discount thrown in too….

As I said. We live and learn. Thanks for the heads up on off grid power solutions. I'll make some enquires

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[nigelivy]

I think your right. It's the alternator to battery side cables that will need upgrade with CBE

It's usually the charging from the engine battery that needs to be addressed by installing a B2B. We install B2Bs with new wiring and avoid modifying the existing split charge system, but instead disable it using a relay. This means that the control panel works (showing engine battery voltage when engine is off, etc..) but you get the full benefit of the B2B and no risk of wiring that's not suitable.

The rest of the wiring shouldn't be an issue with a lithium upgrade as it should be sized correctly for the current it carries.

As Adrian mentioned above, your mains charge might need to be changed, but this is a simple change that doesn't require re-wiring.

We've noticed that some van converters don't actually have the electrical skills in-house and outsource the installation of the electrics to third parties, so this is often their hesitation to allow changes within the warranty period as if there's an issue that they have to look it, they have to hire in the third parties to diagnose/repair, etc..

 

[eddie]

But then on talking to IH they are saying really only they can do this as it requires a complete rewire of the van.

Utter tosh!

Anyone else will invalidate the warranty.

Well it would invalidate the warranty on the bits removed!

But then the bits removed would be replaced with new bits, with a new warranty

Ask IH to fix an engine problem and they will no doubt tell you to take it to Fiat as they don’t do that bit

So your warranty is multi faceted anyway as IH are not a vehicle manufacturer but a vehicle converter, using third party products, each with a warranty

I have asked in the past for a similar such ‘warranty void’ statements in writing on headed notepaper stating I was going to run it by someone to check legality, and enjoyed the back peddling

 

[Fragle]

So decided to have a day out at Newark show today as it's only an hour away and at least have some clarity on what is needed to change to lithium.
I spoke with offgridpower.solutions as recommended on here regarding what I have and need to change. I had taken photos and will need to change the CBE but nothing unexpected and nothing like the scare mongering at IH. Thanks to them for the help explaining in simple terms why and what I need to change.

I also decided to speak with IH as they were at the show. Spoke with Chris who as ever was helpful. We reiterated how much we liked the van and how well it worked for us. Also how I was interested in putting Lithium on.
That conversation then turned to what I felt about how aftersales were dealing with customers.

I felt some things needed to be said. Chris and another femail staff member who I delt with at purchace were very sad and disappointed with what I had to say about the aftercare and said they will raise the issues on return tomorrow.

Productive day in all. I thought the show was very good and I nearly bought a new Adria again from Geoff Cox.

 

[BillandHelen]

It's usually the charging from the engine battery that needs to be addressed by installing a B2B. We install B2Bs with new wiring and avoid modifying the existing split charge system, but instead disable it using a relay. This means that the control panel works (showing engine battery voltage when engine is off, etc..) but you get the full benefit of the B2B and no risk of wiring that's not suitable.

The rest of the wiring shouldn't be an issue with a lithium upgrade as it should be sized correctly for the current it carries.

As Adrian mentioned above, your mains charge might need to be changed, but this is a simple change that doesn't require re-wiring.

We've noticed that some van converters don't actually have the electrical skills in-house and outsource the installation of the electrics to third parties, so this is often their hesitation to allow changes within the warranty period as if there's an issue that they have to look it, they have to hire in the third parties to diagnose/repair, etc..

 

[Pausim]

I used a CBE 516 charger on my 100Ah lithium for nearly 5 years without a problem. I chose the lead acid setting because the Gel setting had a very long absorption time which is not ideal. The lead acid setting slightly undercharged the battery but who needs a full battery when on an EHU? What matters is having a full battery when you arrive somewhere without EHU and for that a good B2B is the important device.

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[Lenny HB]

I used a CBE 516 charger on my 100Ah lithium for nearly 5 years without a problem.

My new van has a CBE 516-3, it has an automatic desulphation phase which you can't turn off so no way would I risk it on Lithium.

 

[Fragle]

My new van has a CBE 516-3, it has an automatic desulphation phase which you can't turn of so no way would I risk it on Lithium.

This is what they explained today and recommended changing the 516-3. For lithium
I’ll probably wait now until my existing warranty comes to an end in October

 

[Pausim]

My new van has a CBE 516-3, it has an automatic desulphation phase which you can't turn of so no way would I risk it on Lithium.

Bit of a pain adding a desulphation phase if you want lithium.

 

[Nirvanauk]

So decided to have a day out at Newark show today as it's only an hour away and at least have some clarity on what is needed to change to lithium.
I spoke with offgridpower.solutions as recommended on here regarding what I have and need to change. I had taken photos and will need to change the CBE but nothing unexpected and nothing like the scare mongering at IH. Thanks to them for the help explaining in simple terms why and what I need to change.

I also decided to speak with IH as they were at the show. Spoke with Chris who as ever was helpful. We reiterated how much we liked the van and how well it worked for us. Also how I was interested in putting Lithium on.
That conversation then turned to what I felt about how aftersales were dealing with customers.

I felt some things needed to be said. Chris and another femail staff member who I delt with at purchace were very sad and disappointed with what I had to say about the aftercare and said they will raise the issues on return tomorrow.

Productive day in all. I thought the show was very good and I nearly bought a new Adria again from Geoff Cox.

Thanks for discussing this with sales at IH. Aftersales needs a bit of a shake up.

 

[Lenny HB]

This is what they explained today and recommended changing the 516-3. For lithium
I’ll probably wait now until my existing warranty comes to an end in October

Only had my van 5 days and it will be ripped out next week.

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[eddie]

Only had my van 5 days and it will be ripped out next week.

I agree, why worry about the warranty on a part being dumped

And if a converter states that removing a third party (IE not made by them) component would invalidate the whole warranty I’d conclude that the business was shit and warn others to avoid at all costs

 

[Riverbankannie]

I agree, why worry about the warranty on a part being dumped

And if a converter states that removing a third party (IE not made by them) component would invalidate the whole warranty I’d conclude that the business was shit and warn others to avoid at all costs

I do not remember who I spoke to at IH when I asked about fitting solar to our new van but, thankfully, whoever it was, said “they are good” when I asked if it was ok to have Vanbitz do the work rather than go “up north”.

 

[MichaelT]

Only had my van 5 days and it will be ripped out next week.

On mine what would you reccomend? I turned it off and I'm hardly ever on ehu so was going to just leave it on gel setting and use in emergency.

 

[GROMIT69]

Hasn’t been the same at ih since Carol and Tiggy on the after sales side

 

[Lenny HB]

On mine what would you reccomend? I turned it off and I'm hardly ever on ehu so was going to just leave it on gel setting and use in emergency.

I wouldn't do that as you can't turn off the desilphation phase which charges at over 15v.
I've bought a Victron Multiplus 3000, inverter charger combined it has a 120 amp charger A bit OTT.
If you just want a charger you could fit a Victron 30 amp IP22.

Have a chat with RogerIvy at OffGrid

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[AdrianChen]

On mine what would you reccomend? I turned it off and I'm hardly ever on ehu so was going to just leave it on gel setting and use in emergency.

Good question - Most chargers do not use desulphation on gel (or AGM) since the idea is to stir up the electrolyte (to get rid of stratification) and equalise the voltage across the cells, whilst hopefully removing some of the sulphation. That's not a good plan for gel, or most AGM's not designed for it (I think Lifeline AGM's were the only ones designed to be equalised (15.5v+) regularly that I was aware of when I was involved more, but they were fiendishly expensive back then). Equally chargers with this facility were normally intended for use on isolated batteries, so the kit on the boat/van etc didn't also get the high voltage - perhaps why CBE use 15.2v? Who knows!

The CBE manual doesn't say much at all, but the chart does show de-sulphation for all types including AGM, Gel and FLA in your situation I would bite the bullet and buy a Lithium charger - given its for emergencies I'd want to get a decent slug in quickly, so probably go for something more than the 16amp CBE level, to take advantage of the fast recharge a Lithium can support.

If you have a "big" B2B (with lithium settings) then I guess going for a drive is less risk for the batts?

 

[eddie]

I wouldn't do that as you can't turn off the desilphation phase which charges at over 15v.
I've bought a Victron Multiplus 3000, inverter charger combined it has a 120 amp charger A bit OTT.
If you just want a charger you could fit a Victron 30 amp IP22.

Have a chat with RogerIvy at OffGrid

I have the same unit and it’s faultless