Banning pub stops??

[Rog NotJane]

Would it be in the members' interests (and hence the club's) to take a more altruistic view and try to enhance the wider context of motorhoming and caravanning? Sounds a bit like Typhoo advertising other teabags to increase tea drinkers generally rather than Typhoo drinkers specifically

Yes it would. It’s called “growing the market” so if you get more people generally using sites and you assume you can maintain market share. It is similar to Typhoo the company offering different tea brands to compete with themselves - something I’m sure they do

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

I'm struggling to think of anything that the "big clubs" have done to further motorhomers and caravanners in general, that wasn't of primary benefit to the clubs first ?

Surely the primary role of the club is to benefit its members? It's not their role to benefit members of other clubs, which would be the effect if they grew the market generally.
To grow the market, I would suggest; that is the role of VisitEngland (Or other such body as operates in Scotland,Wales or Northern Ireland).

I can see an argument for a temporary exemption being permitted if someone is testing the waters before potentially opening a new campsite/aire/CS/CL.
After that temporary period, such 'power' should be removed from the club/organisation that issued the exemption so they aren't either put into a market dominant position or being helped to get there. That is not what public bodies should be doing at all.

However, I would expect such exemptions to be provided centrally by DEFRA and not by any potential future competitor.

Imagine if some restaurants' associations were in charge of Food standards grading and how the bigger or more influential restaurants could influence the gradings in other's restaurants.

Imagine Online travel agents insisting on something that controls a private enterprise such as an accommodation provider. They tried to do so in the early days and were pushed back. There's not really any restriction on listing with any of them but, if double-booked the penalties pushed onto the cancelling accommodation cancelling are huge. Such market-affecting matters cannot reasonably be done by a player in that market and that should prevent clubs from issuing exemptions.

imho.

 

[CAB96]

Deleted.

 

[Sandancers]

I think the answer is easy.

Just have a word with the guys who run the Turkish Barber shops.

Advise them that a piece of waste ground, or an old pub with a large car park, can accommodate (real or imagined) many cash paying Motorhomers per night.

Hey Presto, you will have 5 Aires in each town or village !

 

[chaser]

I think the answer is easy.

Just have a word with the guys who run the Turkish Barber shops.

Advise them that a piece of waste ground, or an old pub with a large car park, can accommodate (real or imagined) many cash paying Motorhomers per night.

Hey Presto, you will have 5 Aires in each town or village !

Don't want to divert the thread but how do all these barbers make any money, in uttoxeter we had got down to two old fashioned barbers , now we must have at least 6 shops with about 6 barbers in each, but most of the time they are just sitting in their own chairs with not a customer in sight.

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[Sandancers]

Don't want to divert the thread but how do all these barbers make any money, in uttoxeter we had got down to two old fashioned barbers , now we must have at least 6 shops with about 6 barbers in each, but most of the time they are just sitting in their own chairs with not a customer in sight.

They are only for money laundering.

 

[jockaneezer]

I maybe didn't word my statement on my thoughts of the "big clubs" as well as I could, the synic in me feels that they would, if approached by the Government or Councils, weigh up the pros and cons, and if the cons didn't suit their "business model" they would actively go out of their way to scupper it ?
I'm basing this on a survey I seem to remember from a few years back where the CaMC said they "didn't see any need for European style Aires in the UK" but as Mandy Rice-Davies once said........?

 

[David and Sally]

I have dipped in and out of this thread but can’t find out, are pub stops a thing of the past?

 

[The Wino]

That is something that gets me. The price of wine in pubs, you very rarely find a bottle for less than £20 when you know very well you could get the same bottle from Lidl for less than a fiver, it's got to the point now that I drink bitter or lager even though I would much rather have a glass of wine.

But you pay way more for a coffee than you could make one for or for a beer than one costs at a supermarket! How do you think they cover their overheads! Thinking your paying for just what you're eating and drinking is a bit naive. Maybe they ought to charge say £15 for the table rental for an hour and drinks at supermarket prices?

 

[CAB96]

I have dipped in and out of this thread but can’t find out, are pub stops a thing of the past?

No.

Just one authority cracking down, apparently.

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[GJH]

I have dipped in and out of this thread but can’t find out, are pub stops a thing of the past?

It will depend on whether enforcement is practiced strictly.

In the case of the majority of pub stops there is no change because they have always operated without benefit of a site licence or exemption certificate. They have only got away with it because either the local authority for the area was unaware or they didn't have the resources to take action.

 

[Wildbill]

All I can see is a lot of FLT with nowhere to go
A lot off pubs closing a lot giving up motorhome life
So much negative things to come from this and the big clubs raking in the money and prices going up
WB

 

[NR]

Don't want to divert the thread but how do all these barbers make any money, in uttoxeter we had got down to two old fashioned barbers , now we must have at least 6 shops with about 6 barbers in each, but most of the time they are just sitting in their own chairs with not a customer in sight.

Well, they are washing plenty of stuff, but it’s not hair.

 

[MichaelT]

All I can see is a lot of FLT with nowhere to go
A lot off pubs closing a lot giving up motorhome life
So much negative things to come from this and the big clubs raking in the money and prices going up
WB

A true FLT doesn't do pub stops as by time you've had food and drinks it's very expensive even compared to a C&CC or CMC site.

 

[GJH]

All I can see is a lot of FLT with nowhere to go
A lot off pubs closing a lot giving up motorhome life
So much negative things to come from this and the big clubs raking in the money and prices going up
WB

Whether it is negative or not will obviously depend on point of view. Many of the general public will have little sympathy with FLTs.
As regards pubs closing because they are unable to offer camping to motorhomers, MPs are likely to be unsympathetic to pubs which have acted outside the law in the past.

The alternative is positive action:
Parliament, on the several occasions since 1960 that they have examined the current legislation, have decided that it is fit for purpose but anyone, of course, can lobby their MP to have the 1960 Act revised to enable easier creation of Aire type facilities. It would probably need a group action rather than separate individuals and would be likely to take a lot of work (which history has shown puts most off).
In order to provide alternatives to the big clubs, people can always join a club (e.g. Fun) which has an exemption certificate and support their CLs and rallies. They could also hire a lawyer and fight the current Defra ruling on exemption on the basis that the 2014 interpretation was correct after all (probably expensive and a lot of effort).

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[Do Ron Ron]

Just fell across this video from By The Curb - not someone I have ever watched before. He frequently goes to Bridlington, stays in pub stops. Has now discovered several bubs having been told cant take vans any more!!

Whilst we dont use pub stops i know a lot do. goodness knows what the issue is, just hope it doesnt spread.

very interesting , as a newbie to motor homing (4 years) I have stayed at many pub carparks, but have always asked and had a meal and drink, NOW on one occasion called into a pub early on in an evening met up with some friendly people and ended up as you do with more than the legal limit to drive (wife no license for 7.5) ask the pub Ok to stay the night ,not a problem
.OK now what happens if he says NO due to your new law how do you remove the van without purposely breaking the Law, "get it towed", its all typical BRITISH bureaucrats pen pushers sitting at desks without knowing real life . I would presume local councils have found a way to increases the pubs "Rates Bill" to gain revenue, PLUNKERS

 

[The Wino]

Sor

very interesting , as a newbie to motor homing (4 years) I have stayed at many pub carparks, but have always asked and had a meal and drink, NOW on one occasion called into a pub early on in an evening met up with some friendly people and ended up as you do with more than the legal limit to drive (wife no license for 7.5) ask the pub Ok to stay the night ,not a problem
.OK now what happens if he says NO due to your new law how do you remove the van without purposely breaking the Law, "get it towed", its all typical BRITISH bureaucrats pen pushers sitting at desks without knowing real life . I would presume local councils have found a way to increases the pubs "Rates Bill" to gain revenue, PLUNKERS

Anyone who gets over the limit before arranging where they are staying for the night has only themselves to blame and it's up to them to short out how to get out of the fix they've created.

 

[hja]

Identifying and preventing harm/detriment was the driver for the legislation 65 years ago and the same is true today.
It is quite illuminating to read the Hansard record of the second reading of the bill all those years ago: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-...r/24/caravan-sites-and-control-of-development

Thank you for this. It was a fascinating read, although it has taken time to go through! It was so interesting on so many levels. The issues have not really changed that much - lack of affordable housing causing some people to full time in vans, people wanting to move with work on various sites, and holiday makers both in static and tourers. The language of the debate was wonderful. Very much from the point of men. In fact I am not sure an women contributed to the debate. Men drove the cars that towed the caravans and women cooked the meals and did the housework! There were some great comments about the colour of caravans - white or cream were wanted in the lake district to complement the white lake district cottages! But various colours were also better than uniformity, as long as you didnt put two mauve vans together!!

 

[meanders]

Sor

Anyone who gets over the limit before arranging where they are staying for the night has only themselves to blame and it's up to them to short out how to get out of the fix they've created.

Even as a virtual teetotaler, that seems a little unkind and unrealistic.

 

[GJH]

its all typical BRITISH bureaucrats pen pushers sitting at desks without knowing real life .

The legislation was put in place in 1960 and has been reviewed/revised on several occasions since. It was, and is, based on real life. See https://api.parliament.uk/historic-...r/24/caravan-sites-and-control-of-development

I would presume local councils have found a way to increases the pubs "Rates Bill" to gain revenue

You presume wrong. Rateable values are decided by the Valuation Office Agency and poundages by the government. Local councils simply collect the money and pass on the proportion decided by government.

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[nicholsong]

very interesting , as a newbie to motor homing (4 years) I have stayed at many pub carparks, but have always asked and had a meal and drink, NOW on one occasion called into a pub early on in an evening met up with some friendly people and ended up as you do with more than the legal limit to drive (wife no license for 7.5) ask the pub Ok to stay the night ,not a problem
.OK now what happens if he says NO due to your new law how do you remove the van without purposely breaking the Law, "get it towed", its all typical BRITISH bureaucrats pen pushers sitting at desks without knowing real life . I would presume local councils have found a way to increases the pubs "Rates Bill" to gain revenue, PLUNKERS

Well, if the landlord says NO, he has complied with the new rules.

If you then stay regardless what will the DEFRA do, even if they know? That is what I would do and would back up the landlord by telling anyone that he had not given permission to stay, but that I ignored it.

It seems that it is a Civil Law matter.

Who would DEFRA take to court? The landlord said NO.

Does the new rule apply if the landlord is taking no fee?

 

[GJH]

Well, if the landlord says NO, he has complied with the new rules.

If you then stay regardless what will the DEFRA do, even if they know? That is what I would do and would back up the landlord by telling anyone that he had not given permission to stay, but that I ignored it.

It seems that it is a Civil Law matter.

Who would DEFRA take to court? The landlord said NO.

Does the new rule apply if the landlord is taking no fee?

There is no "new" rule. Pubs (or any other business) who have no caravan site licence or exemption have always been in breach of the 1960 Act by permitting motorhome owners to camp on their land. It is irrelevant whether a fee is taken. All that is happening (in Bridlington anyway) is that the local council has found the resources to enforce the legislation.

The wording of S1 is "Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, no occupier of land shall after the commencement of this Act cause or permit any part of the land to be used as a caravan site unless he is the holder of a site licence (that is to say, a licence under this Part of this Act authorising the use of land as a caravan site) for the time being in force as respects the land so used."
In S2 the Act says "If the occupier of any land contravenes subsection (1) of this section he shall be guilty of an offence".
In our hypothetical case one would probably say (at first glance) that only the landlord and not the customer could be prosecuted. However the words "no occupier of land" and "occupier of any land" could be interpreted as not merely applying to the pub car park so, if the motorhome owner also occupied a house, the court might judge him to be liable.

Isn't legislation wonderful?

 

[SarahBattyll]

I’m afraid does include motorhomes and campervans irrelevant of whether they are designed for that purpose or been converted. Caravan as in “caravan” speech marks meaning ‘like a caravan’ it’s a legal way of describing and attributing a description that encompasses all possibilities.

 

[The Wino]

Even as a virtual teetotaler, that seems a little unkind and unrealistic.

I don't think so. If you're parked at a pub and haven't asked if you can stay there that night it's pretty unreasonable to complain if they say no after all it's their car park! Do you think they ought to provide a free room for the night if you drive there by car or miss the last bus because you had too much to drink!

 

[VXman]

very interesting , as a newbie to motor homing (4 years) I have stayed at many pub carparks, but have always asked and had a meal and drink, NOW on one occasion called into a pub early on in an evening met up with some friendly people and ended up as you do with more than the legal limit to drive (wife no license for 7.5) ask the pub Ok to stay the night ,not a problem
.OK now what happens if he says NO due to your new law how do you remove the van without purposely breaking the Law, "get it towed", its all typical BRITISH bureaucrats pen pushers sitting at desks without knowing real life . I would presume local councils have found a way to increases the pubs "Rates Bill" to gain revenue, PLUNKERS

Taxi

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[Steve I]

I can only quote what happened at our local pub, The pub now has a new landlord who is very accommodating so I put it on S4S app but also advised a £10 refundable bar charge, but upto now nowhere near as many vans have stayed.
Shame as it’s a nice pub with good basic food

Perhaps just goes to prove the number who sponge a free night parking with no intention of using the pub for drinks or food and likely just to abuse the goodwill by using the toilets too. I’d totally respect a £10 pre-pay against bar/restaurant costs and everyone using a pub stopover should do the same IMO, as someone else said, we’re probably taking two car spaces too if in a Moho but even if not busy, it’s still rude and inconsiderate to think you can just park for free and maybe have half of lager or a coke or even nothing at all…

 

[Steve and Denise]

Perhaps just goes to prove the number who sponge a free night parking with no intention of using the pub for drinks or food and likely just to abuse the goodwill by using the toilets too. I’d totally respect a £10 pre-pay against bar/restaurant costs and everyone using a pub stopover should do the same IMO, as someone else said, we’re probably taking two car spaces too if in a Moho but even if not busy, it’s still rude and inconsiderate to think you can just park for free and maybe have half of lager or a coke or even nothing at all…

One motorhomer emptied hi cassette in the fresh water well

 

[Steve I]

One motorhomer emptied hi cassette in the fresh water well

Says it all really, no wonder councils want to see the back of us at times, just the way they do it p’s most of us off…

 

[Reallyretired]

Fortunately there are many dog owners just like you, and I applaud that behaviour. Unfortunately there are just as many who are not like you, and seem to think that their animals have a divine right to shit outside your van, house or wherever and could not care less. Until ALL dog owners learn that not all people are dog lovers, there will be no peace.

I think there are many dog lovers, such as myself, who are not shit lovers (coprophiliacs for the pedantic). It drives me potty to find a pungent pile a few feet from the bin, and the people who bag it and leave the bag behind drive me pottier. If they had half a brain they would realise that it's going to take forever to decompose in a plastic bag, do they believe in the dogpoo fairy?.

 

[Tony50]

Well the simple answer is ?

Don't stop then, businesses do it for profit and
" There's no sweetness in nothing"

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