10 Year LPG bottle/tank information

Basildog

Basildog

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Basildog said:
As promised I have revised the Gas It information on our knowledge base , I will add more as I am still awaiting further clarification.
Interestingly the use of the word must implies that there is actually a legal requirement.

What is the life span of GAS IT refillable gas tanks & GAS IT bottles? 10 Year inspection / replacement

www.gasit.co.uk www.gasit.co.uk
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Interesting indeed...thank you for updating us on this important issue... I'll see what EU laws are regarding the same...
I've recently taken out my warranty expired Gaslow cylinders and gave them away...here in Spain we may have a service agent who does the necessary procedures and inspections....we are most likely one of the Countries that rely on bottled gas for domestic usage rather than mains gas..
 
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I’m amazed there’s only been 2 replies to this thread from Friday, I expect a lot of folk are waiting to see how much it costs to get the Alde system changed to diesel, probably the same as a new underslung tank.
 
I can only find codes of practice rather than legislation?

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CazPaul said:
It says “ Under UK law” so does that mean any tank bring used after 10 years you are breaking the law?
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Ain't no such thing as "UK Law"!

There are the Laws of England & Wales, the Laws of Scotland and the Laws of Northern Ireland.
And that is before we discuss the Principalities and Dukedoms etc. of Jersey, Guernsey, Sark, IOM, Cornwall, all of whom have Laws that may or may not override Laws made in the English Parliament. Plus of course there is external law from the EU, the Hague, and the UN.

Perhaps someone could highlight the particular law and the source.

As you say the use of the word "Must" implies it's either part of an a written contract, which was agreed on purchase,
or it's the Law of the (a named) Land

The word "Must" can not be used in arrears.

If a tank was sold with a 15 year life at the time of sale, you can not change history and say it only has a 10 year life now.
(Unless you wish to recall the item, in which case you would need to purchase the item back and pay a minimum of the one third of the difference in value)
 
As a retired Statutory Engineer Surveyor I do not recognise the expression in law "must", my old experience says the legislation will use the words "shall" or "should" as definitions of what must or may happen, the ACOP ( approved code of practice) issued as guidance for the issued legislation would normally explain these points within its text. A link to the appropriate ACOP will make it easier to interpret.
 
Sheddy said:
my old experience says the legislation will use the words "shall" or "should" as definitions of what must or may happen,
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Agreed. I too recognise those two key words, particularly wrt contracts.

Ian

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Mikeco said:
Can you post a link to the UK Law referred to.
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We have been here so many times before, but for the benefit of people who do not know...

The guidance and standards issued by Liquid Gas UK, (that Basildog is referencing) are used by the Health and Safety Executive to enforce the many Acts and Regulations of UK Health and Safety Legislation that mandate safe LPG systems.
In the event of a failure to comply with the Liquid Gas UK requirements and the HSE are investigating , the HSE will pick the most appropriate H&S Law to take legal action.
For example - a gas tank that is over 10 years old and has not been inspected and recertified but has been issued with a gas safe certificate and then is involved in an incident, would leave the person/company who issued that certificate open to legal action by the HSE.
 
TrudeandDall said:
We have been here so many times before, but for the benefit of people who do not know...

The guidance and standards issued by Liquid Gas UK, (that Basildog is referencing) are used by the Health and Safety Executive to enforce the many Acts and Regulations of UK Health and Safety Legislation that mandate safe LPG systems.
In the event of a failure to comply with the Liquid Gas UK requirements and the HSE are investigating , the HSE will pick the most appropriate H&S Law to take legal action.
For example - a gas tank that is over 10 years old and has not been inspected and recertified but has been issued with a gas safe certificate and then is involved in an incident, would leave the person/company who issued that certificate open to legal action by the HSE.
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……and a privately owned cylinder not recertified……what legislation applies to it. A code of conduct is guidance. The HSE can consider action using the codes of practice as guidance, but as far as I can see there is no specific written legislation that says a gas cylinder must be certified at ten years.
I dont have an issue with the safety aspect of the ten years guidance, it makes sense, but I can’t actually find any written legislation which means you, or indeed an industry member, are prosecuted for simply filling an out of certification cylinder, especially if it is filled with no adverse consequences?
 
Sheddy said:
As a retired Statutory Engineer Surveyor I do not recognise the expression in law "must", my old experience says the legislation will use the words "shall" or "should" as definitions of what must or may happen, the ACOP ( approved code of practice) issued as guidance for the issued legislation would normally explain these points within its text. A link to the appropriate ACOP will make it easier to interpret.
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Cops — Liquid Gas UK: The trade association for the LPG and biopropane industry in the UK

www.liquidgasuk.org www.liquidgasuk.org
Here's the full list of Codes of Practice from Liquid Gas UK - feel free to buy as many as you like at £90 per copy.
Or just trust the free guidance document that summarises the COPs in simple terms and is aimed at the likes of Funsters.
 
Well I've made donations to charity, but none yet as a result of anyone picking up this challenge. (The earlier point about no UK law per se duly noted).

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Does "NCC Approved" Mean Anything To You?

If I can’t be arsed to wait for an Adria dealer to undertake warranty work, I am under the impression that I can get it done at another NCC accredited organisation without invalidating the manufactures warranty. Am I deluded?
www.motorhomefun.co.uk www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Dave
 
TrudeandDall said:
We have been here so many times before, but for the benefit of people who do not know...

The guidance and standards issued by Liquid Gas UK, (that Basildog is referencing) are used by the Health and Safety Executive to enforce the many Acts and Regulations of UK Health and Safety Legislation that mandate safe LPG systems.
In the event of a failure to comply with the Liquid Gas UK requirements and the HSE are investigating , the HSE will pick the most appropriate H&S Law to take legal action.
For example - a gas tank that is over 10 years old and has not been inspected and recertified but has been issued with a gas safe certificate and then is involved in an incident, would leave the person/company who issued that certificate open to legal action by the HSE.
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On another forum the HSE were asked about this and stated that underslung tanks on Motorhomes were nothing to do with them.

I would still like to see something in print thats says that a private individual has to comply with a Code of Practice issues for their members use. This is nothing to do with safety either.

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Mikeco said:
On another forum the HSE were asked about this and stated that underslung tanks on Motorhomes were nothing to do with them.

I would still like to see something in print thats says that a private individual has to comply with a Code of Practice issues for their members use. This is nothing to do with safety either.
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You are completely correct Mikeco, you will not find anything that says that we as private individuals have to comply with an ACOP or guidance.
But the businesses who service, inspect and re-fill our LPG systems are duty bound to comply with H&S law.
Therefore when an individual uses a company that has due diligence to their duties under H&S law, that is where an individual will come up against the enforcement of the ACOP/guidance requirements.
And I know loads of people will say that they never get asked to show the age etc of their LPG systems, I have never been asked myself. But just because an out of date system does not get checked, does not make it safe etc.
 
DABurleigh said:
Well I've made donations to charity, but none yet as a result of anyone picking up this challenge. (The earlier point about no UK law per se duly noted).

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Does "NCC Approved" Mean Anything To You?

If I can’t be arsed to wait for an Adria dealer to undertake warranty work, I am under the impression that I can get it done at another NCC accredited organisation without invalidating the manufactures warranty. Am I deluded?
www.motorhomefun.co.uk www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Dave
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Dave, I remember you and I researching the subject independently a good few years ago, and we both came to the same conclusion at the time, that although there was some UN legislation covering 10 x year inspection and testing for liquid take off tanks/cylinders use in vehicle propulsion, there was nothing which covered privately owned vapour take off tanks/cylinders for domestic use.
It's looking like things haven't moved on very much since. 🤷‍♂️

Cheers,

Jock. :)
 
Sheddy said:
As a retired Statutory Engineer Surveyor I do not recognise the expression in law "must", my old experience says the legislation will use the words "shall" or "should" as definitions of what must or may happen, the ACOP ( approved code of practice) issued as guidance for the issued legislation would normally explain these points within its text. A link to the appropriate ACOP will make it easier to interpret.
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Many of our current ACOP specifically uses the following definitions
The use of Should, Shall and Must

Must (required by law)
Shall (required by this Code of Practice)
Should (recommended by this Code of Practice)
I will ask permission to use references from the document but I don’t think it will be possible to use extracts.
 
I am trying to understand the risk. I have two 11 kg Gaslow cylinders fitted on my van: what are the types of events that could happen to them that would make them unsafe?
 
Lizbiebrowne said:
I am trying to understand the risk. I have two 11 kg Gaslow cylinders fitted on my van: what are the types of events that could happen to them that would make them unsafe?
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Fundamentally, it is loss of structural integrity. That is, the inability to retain its contents as originally designed.

This could be a slow controlled release of gas through a pin hole or it could be a sudden and uncontrolled rupture. Remember this is a pressurised container.

What is the likelihood of such events? The likelihood will depend on a number of factors including the environment (e.g. salty sea air) in which the vessels have been stored and used/abused, whether or not they have experienced gross over pressure (unlikely), etc.

Evidence would suggest that the likelihood is low (otherwise such events would be well publicised). However, the low frequency of these events can, to some extent, be attributed to the applicable Codes of Practice to which Basildog refers.

Ian

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bigtwin said:
Fundamentally, it is loss of structural integrity. That is, the inability to retain its contents as originally designed.

This could be a slow controlled release of gas through a pin hole or it could be a sudden and uncontrolled rupture. Remember this is a pressurised container.

What is the likelihood of such events? The likelihood will depend on a number of factors including the environment (e.g. salty sea air) in which the vessels have been stored and used/abused, whether or not they have experienced gross over pressure (unlikely), etc.

Evidence would suggest that the likelihood is low (otherwise such events would be well publicised). However, the low frequency of these events can, to some extent, be attributed to the applicable Codes of Practice to which Basildog refers.

Ian
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One of my Cepsa cylinders we have here in Spain for Domestic use and gets swapped on a regular basis has a date stamp on its base..08/2006..
August 2006...(Year it was manufactured) Interesting that the second biggest bottled gas supplier in Iberia still has in circulation cylinders of this age..I would imagine it's been subjected to periodic inspection and a valve change...
 
Is the suggestion here that the gas bottles must be replaced after 10 years or re-certified. If the latter, what tests are carried out on the bottles to re-certify them (for another 10 years?)
 
Our aluminium bottle we purchased in 2010 from Gas it, was refurbished in 2020 at Alugas in Germany has only been in and out of 3 gas lockers up to date, hardly comparable with exchange bottles, I don't know what the law or rules are in Spain but I'm careful about information from someone trying to sell me something. 🤔

Anyway my refillable is fine until 2030 and although we had our first Gaslow in 2007, travelling with the 90 day rule has changed everything and I probably wouldn't buy one now and just stick with our cheap 😉 Spanish exchange bottles. :rofl: Bob.
 
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Lizbiebrowne said:
Is the suggestion here that the gas bottles must be replaced after 10 years or re-certified. If the latter, what tests are carried out on the bottles to re-certify them (for another 10 years?)
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Yes Liz, but whilst an inspection and recertification service is apparently available in other countries, no such service appears to be available here in the UK, meaning that replacement is the only option for compliance. 🤷‍♂️ How convenient for the industry, but not for the end user, especially regarding cylinders. :doh:

HTH,

Jock. :)
 
On a slightly different subject but still gas
Several yrs ago i phoned GAS SAFE as a private homeowner and asked is the any current regulation to stop me doing my own gas piping and connecting my own boiler . They said there is no regulation to stop me doing this or a friend as long as its not for money ie being paid

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I don't get the amount of people trying to find an excuse not to replace their cylinders/bottles at 10 years. For Christ's sake you are sleeping on top of a potential bomb surely you want to be safe. It's not just the cylinders the valves have a 10 year life.

For the sake of your our safety why not just change the rudy things rather than risk your own life, why spend hours arguing why you shouldn't, anyone who thinks like that must be bonkers.

Our Alugas cylinders were in pristine condition looked like new as the two vans they were in had internal gas lockers accessed from inside the garage.
I still replaced them at 10 years, there is no argument not to.

You also get the ones that bury their head in the sand, a few times on the forum I have suggested to people who have bought a used van with refillable cylinder or an underslung tank they check the age as it may need replacing. They appear to ignore my post and don't even have courtesy to reply.
I don't get it, it's the most dangerous item in the van.
 
PeterCarole29 said:
On a slightly different subject but still gas
Several yrs ago i phoned GAS SAFE as a private homeowner and asked is the any current regulation to stop me doing my own gas piping and connecting my own boiler . They said there is no regulation to stop me doing this or a friend as long as its not for money ie being paid
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That’s very unlike Gas Safe as they normally don’t commit to any definitive answer (in fact it seems almost impossible to get a definitive answer from anyone in the gas industry)
But I would say that your particular question is easily answered and in GSIUR where it defines what is classed as work .
DIY and favours for friends etc are all deemed as work and therefore you would still need to prove competency ( how do you prove competency without all the relevant qualifications) ?
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Basildog said:
That’s very unlike Gas Safe as they normally don’t commit to any definitive answer (in fact it seems almost impossible to get a definitive answer from anyone in the gas industry)
But I would say that your particular question is easily answered and in GSIUR where it defines what is classed as work .
DIY and favours for friends etc are all deemed as work and therefore you would still need to prove competency ( how do you prove competency without all the relevant qualifications) ?
Page 14
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Guidance 51
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I was very surprised at what he said, Also am very happy for your information .I absolutely agree its not advisably and would not suggest anyone do it .
I posted it more to show that as a private user many regulations dont apply ( i thought )

I agree with LennyB previous comments too
 
Basildog said:
That’s very unlike Gas Safe as they normally don’t commit to any definitive answer (in fact it seems almost impossible to get a definitive answer from anyone in the gas industry)
But I would say that your particular question is easily answered and in GSIUR where it defines what is classed as work .
DIY and favours for friends etc are all deemed as work and therefore you would still need to prove competency ( how do you prove competency without all the relevant qualifications) ?
Page 14
Regulation 2(1)
Guidance 51
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And thankyou for making it clear
 
Basildog said:
That’s very unlike Gas Safe as they normally don’t commit to any definitive answer (in fact it seems almost impossible to get a definitive answer from anyone in the gas industry)
But I would say that your particular question is easily answered and in GSIUR where it defines what is classed as work .
DIY and favours for friends etc are all deemed as work and therefore you would still need to prove competency ( how do you prove competency without all the relevant qualifications) ?
Page 14
Regulation 2(1)
Guidance 51
View attachment 1018419
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I always do my own gas work in the house, having seen some professionals at work I ain't letting them near my gas pipes.

A few years ago my daughter kept thinking she could smell something so to keep here happy I called the Gas safe line. Guy who came round did a very good job of checking everything, then said to me do you do your own plumbing as its a jolly site better than most of the professionals.

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