Up weighting - air anyone ? what did you have and whats the best bang for buck ? (1 Viewer)

[roadwarrior]

OK, well it's gonna happen so I'm sure your right, I was wondering if there was anybody out there that had done both, not on one van but had gone uprated Springs and then air, as a comparison, seems like its going to be me then. watch this space eh.

 

[Minxy]

OK, well it's gonna happen so I'm sure your right, I was wondering if there was anybody out there that had done both, not on one van but had gone uprated Springs and then air, as a comparison, seems like its going to be me then. watch this space eh.

Just do the airbags, no need for the springs - airbags give more benefits than springs will.

 

[roadwarrior]

Just do the airbags, no need for the springs - airbags give more benefits than springs will.

your still misunderstanding me, im talking about a comparison between a van that has had uprated springs, and a van that has had supplementary retro fitted airbags fitted - not BOTH but a comparison

 

[Minxy]

your still misunderstanding me, im talking about a comparison between a van that has had uprated springs, and a van that has had supplementary retro fitted airbags fitted - not BOTH but a comparison

... and here was me thinking you liked a hard ride ... or you're a bit of a dumpling so need the extra support!

 

[DerryW]

Ditto what Minxy Girl says. Completely different animal

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[roadwarrior]

Ditto what Minxy Girl says. Completely different animal

yes but what animal....
carthorse springs are on heavy vehicles for its superior load spacing capabilities, like supporting an overhang and literally spreading the load, im sure the air bags help but with differant characteristics, having been one of millions who had a mini and been bounced around what at the time what i used to call hydrospastic suspension, i just ask the question is it actually better ? Im sure the combination of the two is better, im just curious

 

[roadwarrior]

I asked svtech what the air pressure of the bags should be, I was told between 20-30 psi, depending on my preference, which means unlike tyre pressure being relevant to load carrying capacity my airbag pressure is down to how much I want to bounce around?
I also recall I discovered that a soft airbag suspension allowed better cornering and more comfort and I bounced around a lot less than what the official air suspension pressure was on the mini, as it felt it absorbed the bounce rather than react to it, not really relevant for a Motorhome I grant you, but if it's capacity is not diminished legally then I will try 20 psi for 'comfort ' mode and see how it feels.

 

[Landy Andy]

It’s worth having a play but I wouldn’t think 20psi (1.4bar) will show much effect. I run mine at 2bar to 3bar (30-44psi) but as long as you keep it above .5bar then no harm can be done by playing with it.
Its a different system to mini where the only suspension was the bag, where in the van there are the original spring, and then the bags, working with dampers.

 

[roadwarrior]

I agree Andy, can you tell any difference in ride when you go between 2-3 bar and do you alter it according to rear load or just experimenting ?
I am going to measure the height of the wheel arch, and see if there a correlation, i would imagine the greater the load the more psi is needed to keep it at that level, and in theory the ride should be similar when loaded up, but this is speculation and i cant begin to prove or disprove anything until its legally up weighted. Then there is the tyre pressures to try...

 

[roadwarrior]

i have been trying different pressures on the airbags, i started off at 1.7 bar which i found ok, i then went to 2.5 bar which i felt was far to bouncy and was counter productive in comfort and road holding, this is in conjunction with 65 psi on the front tyres and 70 psi on the back ( sorry to mix my metaphors, but its bar on the airbag gauges, and psi on my pressure gauge )
I am now down to 1.5 bar and fell its right for me and my van.

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[peterc10]

Now this is contentious, and should cause a lively debate but what the hell.
Talking about payloads, tyre capacities and tyre pressures.
I had a Bolero until a few weeks ago, it was plated at 3850 when i bought it and so i had to do nothing. Now, it was fitted with 215/70/15 vanco tyres and i believe but cant remember, it was 109 rating but I know it was capable to go to 80psi, i found 80psi ridiculously high and uncomfortable and so dropped them down to 60psi. Now once upon a time i used to make tyres @ Fort Dunlop Birmingham and remember someone telling me tyres should have a little flat spot at the bottom as it touches the road which allows it to spread its tread properly. I never went near a waystation to weigh it, but i went all over europe for 7 years and never had a mishap, not even a flat tyre. Nothing. But i assure you it was always loaded to the gunnels. It had a single big spring at the back and it always - and i mean always stood high at the back, i have no idea what the leaf spring was but it was obviously mighty !
I have dropped my apache to 70psi to get my flat spot, at 80 it was like riding a washboard, too harsh, and jiggly, i have been reading and it seems AT suggest dropping the front tyres to 65 at the front, so once the airbags go i will experiment and maybe 65/70-75. we shall see.

Have you got Continental tyres? If so there is no need for you to guess the recommended tyre pressures. Just get the axles weighed when you are fully loaded, then phone them up or email them and they will tell you the recommended pressures for your existing tyres for each axle. They will probably be a lot lower than 80psi, especially on the front axle.

 

[roadwarrior]

Thanks Peter, but no I'm not guessing, I was just offering it up, I'm happy with 65 on the front and 70 on the back for now with 1.5 bar on the bags. when its replated by dvla i will take it down the weigh station loaded up and see what it looks like

 

[CamperManLez]

Why not just change the springs, it’s simple and will never go wrong?

 

[roadwarrior]

Why not just change the springs, it’s simple and will never go wrong?

i suggested the same thing here myself and was met with a barrage of pro air bag fans who all told me airbags were better in every way upto, (but not in writing) that it would also improve my sex life and i could throw away my penis enlarger... such was the enthusiasm... i have done so now and shortly i will be 3850 and a happy bunny for quite a few hundred quid,, and i will be very honest and say im struggling to tell much difference, and frankly im not sure i would be able to discern between a leaf spring upgrade and this airbag and leaf combination, although im noticing better stability whilst passing trucks on motorways. I did ask here if anybody had ever had both kinds of upgrade and could therefore offer a comparison but seems nobody had - until me.
I have now experienced both - a simple rear spring upgrade on a bolero - and now a dunlop airbag on this Apache i have just bought.
My conclusion is.. aside from a better behaviour for passing trucks i can feel no difference from a simple spring upgrade ( which cost 150 quid at the time + 50 quid to fit it ) and the much more expensive and complex airbag assist which i now have. I also run my tyres soft, 65 front 70 rear which also removes the bone shaker attributes of a van at 80 psi and will contribute to a softer more comfortable ride generally. I have settled on 1.5 bar on the airbags having tried 2.5 and found myself back on the boneshaker trail, again too harsh for no benefits.

 

[CamperManLez]

That’s interesting info and thanks for that. My van is a pvc (boxer) heavy chassis which has springs rated for the plated axle weights = lots of capacity. I note it runs just nice at my regular 3.4 tons +/- loaded up trip weight . Suggest you look at those online tyre pressure calculators for your tyre pressures. I run van tyres 121 rating with front at 55 and rear at 60 for 3.4 tons It’s a good ride and even wear.

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[roadwarrior]

i dont doubt it Les, i ran my bolero @ 60 psi for the entire 7 years i had it and very pleasant it was too, but like you it had a big payload even before it was uprated but bolero's are very light vans and nothing like the bloated piggy that is the apache, as i say, once the the dvla upweight it i will load it with water and fuel albeit the almost useless 60ltr diesel fuel tank and go round the public weighbridge and see how it looks, then look at seeing if the tyre pressures need looking at. after that the plan is next year to change the tank in time to go and annoy the french. The real annoying thing is that AT could have reduced the size of the 130 ltr water tank and i would not have cared less, under NORMAL circumstances i travel with around 25% water and use and drop as i go, only filling up if we stay a few days somewhere, which is almost never when doing aires as we like to move around.

 

[PeteH]

This is not the first time on this and other forum, that the question of payloads has arisen. Manufacturers have a tendency to plate to 3.5t. because they understand that the vast majority of customers will not have a C1, entitlement going forward. This leaves many often running their Motorhomes illegally. Unless of course they had accessed forums etc such as this before they purchase and ask the questions of the Seller.

Most of the comercial chassis upon which Motorhomes are built are constructed to accept a much higher loading than shown on the plate. What appears to happen is the manufacturer downsizes the likes of Tyres, Springs, Brakes etc; saving small amounts of money at the factory on each unit. For example:- the Fiat light and heavy chassis are constructionally the same if you look at them "Bare", the difference is in the brakes, the Springs and Tyres.

There used to be accessible on the Alko website, (no longer accessible, but I have a copy as a pdf) the details of the various offerings. And again taking the Fiat as example, the only difference between an AMC 33L @3300Kg and the Higher rated AMC 35L @3850Kg are a move to higher rated tyres. Go to the the "heavy" chassis (this is Alko remember not Fiat) and the Rating for a 35H @ 3500Kg and the 45H @4500Kg, any material change is zero. Even the 50HT (which I take to be the Twin rear wheel version) Shows a Rating of 5000Kg the main difference at all being a move to 16inch wheels and tyre rating. In all cases nothing else appears to be altered?.

When I was looking into this before uprating my last Fiat/Alko based Rapido. One reason for this situation propounded, was that changes to the UK licencing (to come in line the Europe) circa 1998ish. Meant that unlike those of us with pre 98 licences, the acquisition of the B1 no longer entitled the driver to the C1. In fact it became a separate requirement with of course all the expense and testing etc:. (the cynic in me also saw the extra money to be made). The reasoning for this was further suggested in that it had been pressure from the French (wouldn't you know it!) to limit at 3500Kg. so they did not have to make the changes to their licencing, (just us mugs across the Channel)!.

 

[roadwarrior]

it remains to be seen what happens when the unintitled millenials get old enough to want a Motorhome. I can't see them rushing to get qualified so envision the UK Motorhome industry dying off as us old farts die off. It will of course also contribute to lowering of driving standards as the skills literally die off.

 

[CamperManLez]

Again that's interesting and useful info and much better than I often read on this forum, thanks for that. In relation to PVC derived MH's I note a lot of the manufacturers pick the lowest spec chassis and then charge a heap of cash for them or add 'drivers spec' add on's to crank the price some more. On the subject of chassis types I replaced the discs and pads (front and back) on my Boxer this summer and I noted I had do do some investigation to be sure I was buying the right disc as there are several options for the different chassis types / wheel sizes. In the end I found the right disc by measuring the ones fitted to the van with the drawings from the Brembo website (a very good website). The heavy chassis has the 300mm disc at 32mm width for the front and weight of each is 10kg, this is the largest disc they have and what is fitted to my van. Looking at the rear springs on mine with it loaded up with scooter on the back and its still well clear of the rubber assist cones.
I am considering an upweight for next year to 4ton but I seem to manage very well at 3.5ton and I carry a scooter / electric bike / side awning and plenty other stuff. Makes me wonder what people take with them on trips to need massive payloads.
Cheers

 

[Minxy]

Again that's interesting and useful info and much better than I often read on this forum, thanks for that. In relation to PVC derived MH's I note a lot of the manufacturers pick the lowest spec chassis and then charge a heap of cash for them or add 'drivers spec' add on's to crank the price some more. On the subject of chassis types I replaced the discs and pads (front and back) on my Boxer this summer and I noted I had do do some investigation to be sure I was buying the right disc as there are several options for the different chassis types / wheel sizes. In the end I found the right disc by measuring the ones fitted to the van with the drawings from the Brembo website (a very good website). The heavy chassis has the 300mm disc at 32mm width for the front and weight of each is 10kg, this is the largest disc they have and what is fitted to my van. Looking at the rear springs on mine with it loaded up with scooter on the back and its still well clear of the rubber assist cones.
I am considering an upweight for next year to 4ton but I seem to manage very well at 3.5ton and I carry a scooter / electric bike / side awning and plenty other stuff. Makes me wonder what people take with them on trips to need massive payloads.
Cheers

What is your rear axle weight once fully loaded?

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[CamperManLez]

With my overall trip wt around 3430 max the rear is comes in at around 1900 with the scooter on the back. Plated axle wt rear is 2400. Anyone who buys the Sevel chassis in Heavy / Maxi guise gets a good deal with the factory plated axle wts.

 

[roadwarrior]

so.. the near useless DVLA finally sent back my revised log book and guess what ... they buggered it up.. how unusual, cheaper tax - ta.. so now taxed as 3850, but guess what....... MPM still says 3500.. cant make it up... which means i could still get fined for being over weight according to the log book - numptys ...

 

[roadwarrior]

i have just spoken to the dvla and they have told me that they dont alter the mpm unless told to by the DVSA, WHAT ??? they said sent them proof - what ??

 

[Langtoftlad]

i have just spoken to the dvla and they have told me that they dont alter the mpm unless told to by the DVSA, WHAT ??? they said sent them proof - what ??

BS - they changed mine, took three goes mind .
Their excuse is they don't use the category, so they don't change it.

 

[roadwarrior]

BS - they changed mine, took three goes mind .
Their excuse is they don't use the category, so they don't change it.

so it seems, i emailed svtech and asked the question, their reply was..
"


The DVLA don’t change the Max permissible as it’s not listed as a changeable field, as long as the revenue weight is correct. It’s fine as it is!!



Regards

Steve"

so... is it ok or not ?

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[Langtoftlad]

My concern was that Mr EU Plod might not fully comprehend the finer niceties of an English V5c?

 

[roadwarrior]

My concern was that Mr EU Plod might not fully comprehend the finer niceties of an English V5c?

i agree completely
im not happy, but this has sprung from the new V5c forms, i have just looked at my previous van that was also 3850k, the f1 section is blank on the old forms, and so i reason the database does not look as its not changeable as said by svtech. A software glitch.

 

[Jewellbags]

spent about a grand on semi air suspension , updated to 3850 and a vastly improved ride

 

[roadwarrior]

spent about a grand on semi air suspension , updated to 3850 and a vastly improved ride

im glad to hear it, over what though ? as i have said before here, many factors affect the ride, i go for soft tyres and low pressure of about 1.5 bar and its lovely.

 

[Jewellbags]

much reduced roll when going around corners

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