Twin rear wheel chassis - pros & cons? (2 Viewers)

[JeanLuc]

Hi Dafydd - I realise this may be a fair way to travel from Cork, but this motorhome might tick some of your boxes (based on the comments you have made). It has a big payload, masses of storage space and is very well specced. - also twin RWD of course.
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They are a good dealer - we bought our Hymer from them a few years ago. If you are not yet ready to buy, it might be worth asking the dealer to look out for a suitable van for you at a future date.

 

[Dafydd]

@Bertie Bassett Owl watching! - yes, it was photos of the owls there that got me onto the idea some tears ago. I'm looking at there (Konttainen) or further south near Kuhmo for 2017. The cost of the winter clothing is nearly as much as staying there and doing a photo course! And I can't go there and not do some snowmobiling or huskie-sledding.... so, yes very expensive for a few weeks. Driving there may well be a stupid idea but I'm going to stick with the plan unless it's beaten out of me... I'll have a practice winter a bit further south first!

New Year was half an hour stood around in the freezing cold with my neighbours, a hip flask (Jamesons), some suicidal firework-throwing urchins and very loud bangs followed by champagne and toast when I got home. And then some 'proper' wine... Slainte!

@jonegood "I would give later Iveco based vehicles serious consideration - that is as long as you can find the layout you want"
I agree but layout (and vehicle length) is the consideration that brings me back to the MB that I'm looking at. I'm considering the air suspension (it's an expensive factory fit but on the rear axle a retrofit is not possible), I'm pretty sure it'll be worth it in the long run.

I'll do a new browse of other winterised brands in case chassis options have changed for 2015, in the 5t range. I looked at N&B on Iveco and the models are just too long for me (I'm already at 7.6m and really don't want a bigger vehicle).
Thanks for your thoughts, appreciated.

 

[Judge Mental]

once vans get over 3300kg the ride comfort characteristics decline rapidily! the heavier they get the harsher they become..Air an option but Alko now have a kit for panel vans as well, probably not as comfortable as full air but a cheaper option. the intention is for it to be a factory order or after fit. maybe worth investigating what vehicles its available for.

http://www.promobil.de/test/alko-ha...ehr-komfort-sorgt-eine-testfahrt-6570767.html

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[Dafydd]

@JeanLuc
You're right, that looks like it's right up my strasse! Thanks... it'll be maybe 3 months though until I've sold a house to fund the purchase. That B580 Starline is pretty close to my ideal, being LHD and on the MB516/9 .... I could buy that tomorrow.
Of course there's a slim possibility that it'll still be for sale....

The current online brochure only lists an MB Starline 680 at 8m (getting too long for me) - Hymer is very hard work for second hand research I find because there are so many model numbers which change from year to year.
When I put my ideal spec (things I don't want as well as things I want) into the pricing for a new van the price is eye-watering. But to save a lot of money for a slightly less than ideal layout and/or options is of course a compromise I'll make. I've been trying to psyche myself into the logistics and bureaucracy for buying (and ongoing warranty service) in Germany (for the LHD), I've seen some dealers' 'last years stock' models which make good value (using mobile.de).
Thanks for the tip on Edgehill too, I've put it into my bookmarks.

In the past there's usually always at least one of my 'must haves' absent, like this one (RHD and on the lighter chassis, 4.2t):
http://www.motorhomes.co.uk/motorhomes-for-sale/hymer/starline/b-580-mercedes/1413/ (I'm assuming the length spec here at 7.1m is correct).

Once the house here is sold I'm moving to Wales so I expect to be doing a lot of miles across the country. I'm going to Nottinghamshire next week as it happens (to SMC motorhomes), I should try and work a visit to Edgehill into the itinerary, unless arctic weather rules the trip out altogether (I'm driving from N. Wales). As you say it would be good to talk to them even if this one sells before I'm ready to buy.
Thanks very much for the useful comment Philip - and a Happy New year to you & yours.

 

[Judge Mental]

the extra length of a twin single bed layout maybe a bit pointless for a singleton? a large double transverse bed over a large garage, (keeping length reasonable) probably easier to live with

 

[funflair]

You can get a Concorde Credo on 50c IVECO chassis at 7.69 metres. Quite a nice van.

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[Dafydd]

@Judgemental "the extra length of a twin single bed layout maybe a bit pointless for a singleton?"
Exactly right. One model I'm looking at has a single rear transverse bed over a garage (it's a variation of a double rear bunk-bed layout, minus one of the bunks), making even more space and the drop-down for when I have company. It's a rare spec but there's one (already sold to order) that I'm going to look at next week (though of course not LHD). I've not seen one on Mobile.de yet but I'll keep checking, there's a couple with the double bed though, like this: Broken Link Removed
(edit: I just realised that that's the twin bed variant - the double (BD) layout is what's in the new catalogue)

If I buy new (and pay a *lot* for the privilege) then that's what I'd go for (the single transverse bed). For second-hand/nearly new there's always going to be some compromise or other and at some point I'll just have to say "Sold!" and go for it. Meanwhile a new order is still on the agenda...
I'm feeling quite settled on the twin rear wheel drive (MB or Iveco) so that narrows the scope considerably for new and second hand alike. As 80+% of my already planned touring is on the continent I'm settled on LHD too.
I appreciate your comments about the MB516 suspension, I'll do some research on that.

 

[Dafydd]

You can get a Concorde Credo on 50c IVECO chassis at 7.69 metres. Quite a nice van.

I'd better open a bottle of wine! Thanks a mil for the tip it's a new one to me.

 

[funflair]

I'd better open a bottle of wine! Thanks a mil for the tip it's a new one to me.

It's new for 2015, we saw it at Dusseldorf and then Southdowns had one at the NEC.

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[Judge Mental]

I'll PM you details of a favorite dealer that I and others have used now that your looking at LHD. They deal a lot with exports, particularly to scandinavia, very knowledgeable generally, and can apparently get any make as well as the ones they are agents for.

Uniquely in my experience, they offer full comp insurance with 5 day export plates, removing risk from driving back 3rd party. Also will do all the changes, headlights (if necessary) speedo and fog lights. making registration process faster once you get it home...worth contacting for a quote once you have a firm idea.

 

[Dafydd]

@Judgemental @funflair
Danke! That kind of export assistance would make a world of difference. I'll look into it and see about planning a trip over.
I'm currently drinking the Concorde brochures... no wait, I'm drinking Rioja and reading the Concorde Credo brochures.
Whilst the prices look scary they actually compare favourably with Frankia as the standard spec is higher (things like Alde heating..). Mmm: Broken Link Removed

 

[Dafydd]

@Judgemental
As per a previous discussion, but relevant here as it's on the MB516 twin rear wheel, I just came across Wochner Mobil:
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Kind of like the La Strada Nova but on steroids.
And you'll probably enjoy this short film of it on snow:

"Härtetest eines Wochner Xantano 520 BDG 4x4 auf Basis Mercedes-Benz Sprinter Allrad. Bei Temperaturen unter -21 Grad Celsius beweist der Sprinter seine Allradtauglichkeit unter extremsten Bedingungen"

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[Dafydd]

@Jean-luc
I found another B580 SL on the MB519 (5,3t), in Germany. Not many about but that makes two for sale as of today.
Whilst the twin single bed arrangement isn't my ideal.... the price difference over a new/nearly new Frankia or Concorde is a couple of years' travel budget, and the rest. I wonder if they made those with a double bed... I'll try and dig out a 2013/14 catalogue.
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[Judge Mental]

@Judgemental
As per a previous discussion, but relevant here as it's on the MB516 twin rear wheel, I just came across Wochner Mobil:
Broken Link Removed
Kind of like the La Strada Nova but on steroids.
And you'll probably enjoy this short film of it on snow:

"Härtetest eines Wochner Xantano 520 BDG 4x4 auf Basis Mercedes-Benz Sprinter Allrad. Bei Temperaturen unter -21 Grad Celsius beweist der Sprinter seine Allradtauglichkeit unter extremsten Bedingungen"

IMO that looks more like it!lol Have driven in conditions like that in Sweden..spot the brave cyclist in the video?lol

would also investigate Iveco options....

 

[Dafydd]

I thought you'd say that! I've emailed them for a catalogue & price lists.
I'll bet that a van like that will cost the same as the Frankia I'm looking at, the 4x4 is something like €12k on top for starters (on a Sprinter). There's also a big alcove on their website that caught my eye ("Mujaro" 520BDG)...

... iirc there was (maybe still is) a Laika Kreos alcove on an Iveco. I just looked, the Kreos 3003. The payload is about my minimum at first glance but I'll have a read about it and what they're made out of. I've not been drawn to an alcove but there are upsides for living space. The Wochner has a certain utilitarian look to it that I like.

Meanwhile the Frankia 7400ed-g is still the current top of my (ever-changing) list for the time being though (storage space!!). It's now being chased up the road by a Concorde Credo!! I fully expect to be smitten once I've visited the showroom but at least I have an enforced cooling off period. Then I'll have to visit Southdowns Concorde and I'll be smitten all over again... these vans are like women!

Oh, and for the purposes of this thread I'm now sold on the twin rear wheel drive whether MB or Iveco.
(jeans and flat shoes, some make-up, but can still dig a latrine, haha! It's the wine, honest!)

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[Dafydd]

I just watched it again to spot the snow-cyclist at the end

 

[Bertie Bassett]

I thought you'd say that! I've emailed them for a catalogue & price lists.
I'll bet that a van like that will cost the same as the Frankia I'm looking at, the 4x4 is something like €12k on top for starters (on a Sprinter). There's also a big alcove on their website that caught my eye ("Mujaro" 520BDG)...

... iirc there was (maybe still is) a Laika Kreos alcove on an Iveco. I just looked, the Kreos 3003. The payload is about my minimum at first glance but I'll have a read about it and what they're made out of. I've not been drawn to an alcove but there are upsides for living space. The Wochner has a certain utilitarian look to it that I like.

Meanwhile the Frankia 7400ed-g is still the current top of my (ever-changing) list for the time being though (storage space!!). It's now being chased up the road by a Concorde Credo!! I fully expect to be smitten once I've visited the showroom but at least I have an enforced cooling off period. Then I'll have to visit Southdowns Concorde and I'll be smitten all over again... these vans are like women!

Oh, and for the purposes of this thread I'm now sold on the twin rear wheel drive whether MB or Iveco.
(jeans and flat shoes, some make-up, but can still dig a latrine, haha! It's the wine, honest!)

Dafydd, I see you're considering the Laika Kreos, having had one (I can't remember the numbers after the name but 2001 new) and purchased from Lowdhams near Nottingham I can only say our experience was not good. The build quality was abysmal and we had to travel back to Lowdhams on many occasions for warranty work to be done before we left for Spain to house hunt. (another story). I won't go into detail but it is useful to note that Lowdhams binned the Laika franchise because the amount of warranty work they were having to carry out was preventing them making any profit on the vehicles. (As an aside it was Euro 1.58-1.62 to the £1 at the time we bought.) I'm sure there will be a Laika fan on in a second to tell you how wonderful they can be............and I'm sure there must have been some made where the bed didn't collapse on first acquaintance and all the water pipes remained connected after crossing the Pyrenees and there was no water ingress around the doors and windows in a mild Spanish winter etc etc....... Where Laika is concerned Caveat Emptor.

 

[funflair]

@Jean-luc
I found another B580 SL on the MB519 (5,3t), in Germany. Not many about but that makes two for sale as of today.
Whilst the twin single bed arrangement isn't my ideal.... the price difference over a new/nearly new Frankia or Concorde is a couple of years' travel budget, and the rest. I wonder if they made those with a double bed... I'll try and dig out a 2013/14 catalogue.
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When we bought the flair it was also twin single beds which we didn't think we wanted, slept one night like that and decided that it was definitely getting modified. On the Flair it was easy to turn the individual bed bases around and make a king size transverse which gives us th big bed and a bit of space at the side for a drawer and bedside tabley thing.

Might be worth looking at on with a tape measure.

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[Judge Mental]

If you look on mobile.de in german and dont translate it, you het more choices...4x4 for one. Some very interesting campers out there! Have said this before but these luxary german jobs to low to the ground IMO, built for rich germans not really for any sort of adventuring...

I think Frankia offer a higher chassis though if a factory order. you should look at Bimobil as well

I like this, although to hard core for you.....as i simply fell in lurve with the size of the fuel tank!


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[jongood]

Hi dafydd

I have spoken to quite a few people who ve bought off Duerrwang

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Might be worth a look and I ve been told that theres a lot of recent secondhand flairs at sulzemoos.

http://www.derfreistaat.de/

also assuming your house is in Cork you wouldnt have the currency hassle.

btw Impressive though the film was - I personally wouldnt bother with a 4x4 motorhome , the extra drive shafts and transfer box all add weight and drag and costs fuel.

Most other countries that have snow are much better at dealing with it than the useless UK and unless you were the worlds keenest skier - what would you actually do and see in a country that is a foot deep in snow and -21c

Jon

 

[funflair]

Hi Jon

HNY.

Flair too big for the Dafydd, otherwise I would have mentioned them, agree with your comment re 4x4 though RWD twin wheel and good tyres should be good enough, hydraulic Jacks to lift yourself up and put boards under if you have managed to get dug in.

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[Dafydd]

@jonegood Thanks for the tip on Duerrwang. I'm trying to stay under 8m, or rather I'm trying to settle on a van with the spec I want that is the shorter the better. So far I'm now looking at a model at 8m.... otherwise the Flair looks really good on the Iveco.
When I actually have to make a decision between new or second hand then, well I guess there are compromises I'll have to consider for a 2nd hand or "dealer stock" van. I'll look into the Flair just so I have an idea of what models would suit me and what the standard kit is... and you never know... at the right price...
But like funflair says I haven't looked at anything over 8m - maybe that rather arbitrary cut-off (it's only based on a "shorter the better" thinking, not on experience) is one I should abandon... For a new van, I've found one I like at exactly 8m so for the minute I'll not be looking further.

I'm not considering 4x4 because of the much higher fuel consumption and I'd hardly ever need it, if at all. It was something Judgemental suggested to me on a different thread. I'll be happy enough on twin rear wheel drive on winter tyres with chains and a few accessories to help me out on non-cleared roads or campsites.

"what would you actually do and see in a country that is a foot deep in snow and -21c"
I want to visit eastern Finland, the Taiga region, for bird watching and nature observation, photography. And the vodka and saunas. And reindeer meat YUM! I like wintery conditions and landscapes, wolves, owls, eagles. If I'm fit enough I'll give snow-shoeing a go and dog-sledding, snowmobiling. Mostly sitting on a battery heated cushion in a bird-hide.
http://www.wildtaiga.fi/en
http://finnature.com/

 

[Peter A Forbes]

Having a decent hydraulic jack is a must, we have a 10-ton Draper on, more for the lifting height than the weight, but more importantly we have two big pieces of 2" thick Oak about 12" X 18" that we put under the jack to stop it sinking in soft ground.

Peter

 

[Larrynwin]

Having a decent hydraulic jack is a must, we have a 10-ton Draper on, more for the lifting height than the weight, but more importantly we have two big pieces of 2" thick Oak about 12" X 18" that we put under the jack to stop it sinking in soft ground.

Peter

I also carry a ten ton bottle jack and all the bits to go with it, breaker bar , torque wrench etc but having a breakdown/rescue insurance , I wonder if I'm wasting good payload.

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[Dafydd]

@Peter A Forbes
A trolley jack or a bottle jack? I've looked at a few in the past (ie a decent jack is on my list) but for changing a wheel on a 5t MH which one is easiest (and safest) do you think?
+ Is that a "high lift" jack, I was just looking at a list and there is '10t' and '10t high lift'...

 

[Dafydd]

@Larrynwin
What's the need for (or for what contingency) a torque wrench - for doing up wheel nuts or something else?
I'm not a DIYer mechanically, beyond changing a wheel.

 

[Larrynwin]

@Larrywin
What's the need for (or for what contingency) a torque wrench - for doing up wheel nuts or something else?
I'm not a DIYer mechanically, beyond changing a wheel.

Yes, wheel nuts should be tightened to correct torque settings, over or under tight can cause damage.
I always used to stand on the wheel wrench but that's a no no
Even when having new tyres fitted , the air guns generally over tighten.

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[Dafydd]

@Larrynwin
Whilst we're on the subject... with cars I've always had my own heavy duty wheel brace (that I could stand or stamp down on) because the supplied ones were usually useless (like you say the nuts are tightened by air guns). Is there one you'd recommend for a MH with twin rear wheels? Should I be looking at buying a wheel-nut torque wrench to go with a decent jack?
(haha, perhaps you want to sell me yours... to keep your payload down )

 

[Larrynwin]

A Clarke (Machine Mart) cht141 torque wrench costing £23.98 would do the job, is 1/2" drive and measures up to 210 nm would be adequate and a 600mm 1/2" breaker bar £20 , all you then need is a suitable 1/2" drive socket to fit wheel nuts
You could spend quite a bit more but for wheel nuts this should be adequate.

 

[Peter A Forbes]

A trolley jack is fine if it has a hard surface tto sit on, but otherwise it just sinks into the ground.

Our two Ruston diesels have to be set on hard standing if the ground is soft, so we have 1" ply 14" square face with aluminium checker plate to sit them on. As the heaviest is 1300kg, any jack has to have a support plate beneath, and the idea carried over to the Mercedes.

3ft of 2" thick by 12" Oak cost us £15.

Reference wheel braces, the Mercedes came without a spare or a spare carrier as they had a tail-lift tucked under where it would go, and no tools or jack either.

I bought a new impact socket (1/2" drive) and a good quality knuckle bar and extension (Britool) Single-hexagon socket preferred so it doesn't slip.

As far as torque goes, I check the nuts are tight enough*, and recheck regularly. I could carry a torque wrench but there is a limit to how many tools I'm going to carry.

*Tighten them until they crack/creak and you'll be pretty close. 180nm is the factory figure.

As all of our wheels have been repainted, I need to recheck more often as the paint film wears through where the cones seat.

Peter

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