The future of British railways!! (1 Viewer)

[busby]

From the first day I went to school, the memory of the British Empire was still very much in the minds of our elders, the atlases were still dominated by the colour pink, plimsoles had "Empire Made" on their soles, we were told that British Railways was the best/most extensive/fastest on the planet, our mighty coal and steel industry dominated the globe and our NHS was the envy of the world

Most of which I quickly learnt was untrue, the Empire had gone, the atlases were old, the factories where the plimsoles had been made were staffed by Chinese child labour, with labels stuck on in Hong Kong, Beeching did for the railways what neglect, under investment and constant striking had started, our mines were inefficient and heavily subsidised, our steelworks unable to compete and our NHS was in the process of being stuffed to the gills with bureaucrats and bean counters to replace nurses and doctors. Despite all that, our economy remains mighty, but only thanks to the phenominal growth of the service sector, no thanks to our rapidly dwindling industrial output

But we have moved on, fifth largest economy in the world, second fastest growing economy in the G7, unemployment at record lows, inflation generally under control. We have one of the largest defence industries in the world, make more than our fair share of the world's jet engines, we are world leaders in genetic research, the worlds insurers, one of the top banking centres, great educational standards , fantastic engineering and the referendum has shown that we can still teach everyone a thing or two about democratic process.

So, we are attractive to foreign investors, the French have invested heavily in water and power, the Chinese are investing in nuclear power, the Germans in our railways. That doesn't concern me, it reassures me that other countries have seen fit to invest in this country, given our own government is so blindingly obsessed with unpopular infrastructure projects as HS2 to carry people to places they don't want to go, at prices they can't afford and at a speed that barely improves on what is available, or sponsoring the construction of "devolved parliamentary" buildings that they can't afford to put aircraft on the new carriers that are being built or restructuring the vastly inefficient NHS.

The way I see things, I would rather we had foreign investment than no investment at all

So bloody true Pyro,,,,BUSBY,,,

 

[olley]

Steam engines can be made more efficient and can be made almost instant starting. Just google flash steam boilers. I believe the Canadians played about with flash steam railway engines in the 50's or 60' s.
They can be made cleaner probably using lpg.

 

[RidersofRohan]

Think you will find that Virgin East Coast Line receives millions in Government Subsidies and their shareholders are the ones that gain a financial reward not the Government,,It stinks,,,BUSBY,,

No the franchise pays a premium into the govt.
East Coast line profitable, franchise has had a chequered history after it was handed back to govt because the franchisee had offered too much premium and couldn't make the payments. The govt ran it for a few years and even they managed to make a profit, believe me if they can anyone can.
Virgin/Stagecoach will pay £3.3 bn to the govt over the 8 year franchise, which averages £412M per year, compared to the last year under govt control of £233M. In addition Virgin will invest in new trains from Hitachi (based in Derby). The govt run railway couldn't even be bothered to clean the 25 year old trains.
“The extra premiums that we’re paying to the Government are generated off the back of higher passenger numbers, typically not higher fares,” says the Virgin MD. “Our strategies are all about getting more people to use the trains.”
The company is actually 90% Stagecoach 10% Virgin but brands itself as Virgin.

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[sedge]

Yeah but No but - I was brought up by parents who both turned their noses skyward on seeing anything marked Empire Made - it was usually made in the lowest 26th world part of the glorious empire most likely in a vile sweatshop and exceedingly cheap quality. Mind you some of it was inside info cos dad served in India in a nice safe ex-hillstation in Meirut, cos he was in the Pay Corps being excellent at sums and nearly blind in one eye LOL

So please don't hold 'Empire Made' to be a GOOD thing cos it wasn't.

Of course I daresay all cotton stuff originated in the Empire when I was young, however more recently most of my knickers seem to have 'Made in Portugal' emblazoned on their labels ....

And you were shooed away from anything Made in Japan in favour of Made in China when they were the choices - and nowt of the ilk had a Made in England tag.

Personally I don't actually care who makes it or where they do it - as long as it turns out to be VFM !

 

[busby]

No the franchise pays a premium into the govt.
East Coast line profitable, franchise has had a chequered history after it was handed back to govt because the franchisee had offered too much premium and couldn't make the payments. The govt ran it for a few years and even they managed to make a profit, believe me if they can anyone can.
Virgin/Stagecoach will pay £3.3 bn to the govt over the 8 year franchise, which averages £412M per year, compared to the last year under govt control of £233M. In addition Virgin will invest in new trains from Hitachi (based in Derby). The govt run railway couldn't even be bothered to clean the 25 year old trains.
“The extra premiums that we’re paying to the Government are generated off the back of higher passenger numbers, typically not higher fares,” says the Virgin MD. “Our strategies are all about getting more people to use the trains.”
The company is actually 90% Stagecoach 10% Virgin but brands itself as Virgin.

Can only find figures up to 2015 ,,In that year the Gov paid out 1.155 billion in subsidies to rail companies and received 1.105 billion back so a net loss. The least subsidy was needed by the Gov run East Coast Line in the years before Virgin were given the Franchise,,BUSBY,,

 

[maxi77]

But all transport was shit years ago,,buses were freezing and slow,,,BR had no investment and terrible management. Who in their right mind would have built steam locomotives in the 50s when diesel and electric were being used elsewhere,,the clever managers of BR. BUSBY,,

The trains were OK for the period the problem was the staff who treated passengers as an inconvenience. I worked for a comany supplying gear to BR and they were a shambles. Even in the 80s they were still living in the steam age.

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[Box Boy]

Spent 43 years in the Railway Industry. Other than my final salary pension Its gone downhill since I retired
Brian

 

[busby]

Spent 43 years in the Railway Industry. Other than my final salary pension Its gone downhill since I retired
Brian

So its your fault Brian for retiring,,Shame on you leaving the sinking ship just to not work and enjoy yourself,,,BUSBY

 

[John & Joan]

Can never understand that, seems the easiest thing in the world to put a conveyer in to move the coal, even years ago it must have been possible

There is an art of firing a steam boiler. It is not just a matter of dumping the coal in. Oil firing was tried on some steam trains but not successfully.

There was no investment in the railways during WW2 and track and rolling stock were worn out by the end of the war. No private company was prepared to take on the investment needed so it was up to the government to provide the money if they wanted to retain the system. They didn't as is presently happening give the private sector funds but decided to nationalise. They did the same with road haulage and bus/coach services, stifling much competition. The government invested in the technology they had already although electric trains we running in some areas steam was mainstay of the long haul traffic. Diesels were used for shunting but diesel electrics were developed for long haul, bringing steam to an end quite suddenly.
After the war many surplus vehicles came on the market with ex service men having the skills to drive them and money they got on demob. They bought up the surplus army waggons and were able to set up in competition with both the national road and rail businesses. They were able to undercut the nationalised business, so taking away trade and profit that was needed for investment.
We have already built one brand new steam locomotive in Darlington using private funds and another is underway.

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[maxi77]

Steam engines can be made more efficient and can be made almost instant starting. Just google flash steam boilers. I believe the Canadians played about with flash steam railway engines in the 50's or 60' s.
They can be made cleaner probably using lpg.

I have no doubt that steam can be made more efficient and operating steam can be deskilled to the levels required for diesel and electric locomotives. Even so they are unlikely ever to be as efficient or more importantly as cheap as diesel and electric which can benefit from design and research in other applications. Don't get me wrong I love steam and have enjoyed the thrill of operating the throttle on a 20000 hp steam turbine but in many places it is not the way forward.

 

[2657]

Interesting thing about steam is that many seem to think that it is an outdated form of energy conversion, not so :

"
The modern steam turbine(invented by Sir Charles Parsons in 1884) currently generates about 80% of the electric power in the world using a variety of heat sources. Power sources include

• • Water is boiled by coal burned in a thermal power plant, about 41% of all electricity is generated this way.[4]
  • Nuclear fission heat created in a nuclear reactor creates steam. Less than 15% of electricity is generated this way.
  • Renewables. The steam is generated by Biomass, Solar thermal energy where solar parabolic troughs and solar power towers concentrate sunlight to heat a heat transfer fluid, which is then used to produce steam, or Geothermal power.
  • Natural gas: turbines are driven directly by gases produced by combustion. Combined cycle are driven by both steam and natural gas. They generate power by burning natural gas in a gas turbine and use residual heat to generate steam. At least 20% of the worlds electricity is generated by natural gas."
• So basically we are still boiling water to provide most of our power

 

[maxi77]

Mind you I suspect that the 80% is a gradually reducing figure though the scale of the plant allows efficiency to be maximised and also makes design costs bearable. The current growth areas are in wind and solar power made more usable by the growing development of pumped storage.

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[GWAYGWAY]

Can never understand that, seems the easiest thing in the world to put a conveyer in to move the coal, even years ago it must have been possible

US steam trains had auger feeds for the coal for years on all the big ones as the fireman could not keep up with the consumption rate

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Interesting thing about steam is that many seem to think that it is an outdated form of energy conversion, not so :

I think the gas powered one are not boilers but proper gas turbines same as warships have but running directly on gas not avtur( paraffin ) To heat water to steam and put that through a turbine would be an awful waste of fuel.

 

[2657]

I think the gas powered one are not boilers but proper gas turbines same as warships have but running directly on gas not avtur( paraffin )

Yes some are:

• Natural gas: turbines are driven directly by gases produced by combustion. Combined cycle are driven by both steam and natural gas. They generate power by burning natural gas in a gas turbine and use residual heat to generate steam. At least 20% of the worlds electricity is generated by natural gas."

To heat water to steam and put that through a turbine would be an awful waste of fuel.

It may be a waste of fuel but that is the way that most of the worlds electrical energy is still produced, perhaps we should be researching ways of converting the energy contained in fossil and other fuels into useable energy in a more efficient manner instead of ploughing vast resources into building wind generators that will never be able to completely replace the present methods.

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[chasthedagger]

I must say this to the replies stating how bad a state owned rail system would be we are not in the fifties and sixties now, and if my memory serves me i believe that east coast rail was brought back into state ownwership and may millions for the tax payer, sadly we have a government who would prefer to line the pockets of rich private companys and foreign state owned rail lines rather than help our under funded services.

 

[olley]

Have a read of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail

From it the UK railway is better under privatisation, not massively, but definitely better.

 

[maxi77]

I must say this to the replies stating how bad a state owned rail system would be we are not in the fifties and sixties now, and if my memory serves me i believe that east coast rail was brought back into state ownwership and may millions for the tax payer, sadly we have a government who would prefer to line the pockets of rich private companys and foreign state owned rail lines rather than help our under funded services.

When the franchise was returned the existing staff retained their jobs and basically continued running the system as they had been doing, much as they are now doing after Virgin took over. The killer for any nationalisation as we are already seeing with railtrack is that our government just cannot understand the needs for timely investment in a business enterprise, rather spending is aimed not at running a railway but at political objectives to garner votes at the next election, hence the progressive demise of BR.

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[busby]

Biggest mistake was privatising the maintenance of the tracks,,,,BUSBY,,

 

[Box Boy]

Biggest mistake was privatising the maintenance of the tracks,,,,BUSBY,,

Quite right Busby.
I worked in a modern signal box when the tracks & signalling were privatised . 'Railtrack' cut the staff to the bone - sad and tragic events unfolded.
Brian

 

[Jaws]

A return to BR would be a disaster for rail. A return to national rail strikes, no productivity, no profit incentive = no customer incentive. A take it or leave it railway and the usual decline and high costs that BR managed to achieve in the dark years.

Ummmmmm.. Not sure what to make of this..
Given how well the rail system works in Germany, Italy, Spain, France and lots of other places, I can only conclude the issue must lay at the feet of the British working man ( or woman ) as that is really the only difference between other countries and here ? ( please note the ? as I am def no expert on this sort of thing ! )

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[busby]

So what's in it for the Tssa?
A return to BR would be a disaster for rail. A return to national rail strikes, no productivity, no profit incentive = no customer incentive. A take it or leave it railway and the usual decline and high costs that BR managed to achieve in the dark years.
The trade unions have been crying ever since.
Award the franchises to British companies next time around.

Not doing so bad for STRIKES on the privatised railways at the moment,,BUSBY

 

[RidersofRohan]

Not doing so bad for STRIKES on the privatised railways at the moment,,BUSBY

You haven't seen nothing yet. Re-creating BR will put national collective bargaining back on and that means national strikes. The alternative to that would be no productivity and higher costs by giving in to TU demands and refusal to accept productivity.

Many years ago I was once given some staff rotas for a rail depot in BR days, I think given the actual amount of work contained in them they could be described as theft. I think one duty was to drive York to Scarborough and then return as a passenger, and that was it one full day's work.

 

[olley]

It wasn't all bad on BR, in 1972 i worked for two years maintaining the tampers on the eastern region . We had 3 tampers, 1 ballast consolidator and a track cleaner (known as a Bex Bissell) and one liner, spread all over east anglia looked after by me and two other guys and a foreman.
We drove out to the machines in morning and they had to be fixed by the evening, no demarcation lines for us, we did electrics, air, hydraulics and the engines, and I also did the welding. It worked well, need a part? Phone Kings Cross and it came down on the train a few hours later, and you fitted it even if it meant staying till midnight to do that.

I bet it doesn't work that well now. Working on a tamper next to a mainline track, climbing on top to fit a new ram, welding next to a station platform H&S would have a fit.

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[maxi77]

Ummmmmm.. Not sure what to make of this..
Given how well the rail system works in Germany, Italy, Spain, France and lots of other places, I can only conclude the issue must lay at the feet of the British working man ( or woman ) as that is really the only difference between other countries and here ? ( please note the ? as I am def no expert on this sort of thing ! )

Whilst some of it may be down to poor industrial relations and the depressing prevalence for workers in the UK to think being paid but not actually working for it is in some way smart, much of our problem lie in the reality our senior civil servants are amateurs compared to most of their continental counterparts who are professional public administrators and graduates in that discipline rather than classic languages or philosophy as in the UK. If you add to that politicians looking for a quick vote winning fix, our poor performance is easily explained

 

[busby]

You haven't seen nothing yet. Re-creating BR will put national collective bargaining back on and that means national strikes. The alternative to that would be no productivity and higher costs by giving in to TU demands and refusal to accept productivity.

Many years ago I was once given some staff rotas for a rail depot in BR days, I think given the actual amount of work contained in them they could be described as theft. I think one duty was to drive York to Scarborough and then return as a passenger, and that was it one full day's work.

They said that when Toyota, Honda and Nissan opened up their car plants but with decent management and good industrial agreements it didn't happen,,it takes two to Tango,,BUSBY,,