Merc 609 wheels on a Merc 410D

Discussion in 'Tech/Mech General' started by dflambe, May 20, 2012.

  1. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    I have a 1996 410D with 185/75/R14 wheels annd found the engine seemed to be screaming at 50mph. I took the plunge have just put 609 wheels on instead (225/75/R16). I'm now able to comfortably do 55mph now with out the engine sounding like it's going to take off.

    Question is!! My van did have twin wheels on the back but I decided to only put singles of the bigger tire on. I have them fitted so that they dish out, that is, I have left the inside wheels off so as to maximise the wheel base width. Do you know if this is a bad idea or will it make any difference? (the van is only 2,700kgs). Would it be advisable to get the tracking/toe in re-aligned after changing to the 609 wheels?

    Dave
     
  2. JJ

    JJ Funster

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    I am no longer a motor mechanic so I don't know for sure but I would never run a twin wheeled axle with only one wheel each side unless getting to a garage (slowly) after a puncture and my spare was flat.

    JJ
     
  3. knokinonabit

    knokinonabit Funster

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    The wheel dish is designed to run a certain way round and putting it on "back to front" would be a no no in my humble opinion. The holes for the wheel nuts are shaped to fit flush to the hub and usually dished so that the wheel nut fits in it to align the wheel properly, and give the wheel nuts "grip".
    If it had twin wheels then that is what the axle was designed to take.
    It may be possible to buy a conversion, but probably not.

    Personally I would not run them as singles as the dishes are the wrong way round from how they were designed to be used and could put undue stress on them. It may not even be legal, at a guess.

    I'm sure someone who knows better will advise you, but I would not take the risk until I knew for certain. Ask a Merc dealer and see what they say.
     
  4. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    have you changed the speedometer gearing to take account of the larger wheels? If not, the speedo will be significantly out and reading under speed. You need to know the true speed to avoid speeding tickets

    each revolution of the larger wheels/tyres will take you further, reducing the gearing, so reducing engine effort/noise. As for running a twin wheel axle on singles, this is potentially dangerous and breaches the vehicle type approval. you are placing double the load on each tyre and placing increased cornering and braking forces on the hub/wheel

    As JJ said, only ever do this in an emergency and for short didstance and low speed. If you were to be stopped by VOSA, they would put a prohibition notice on the vehicle and hand you a decent sized fine too
     
  5. aba

    aba

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    if you have changed the wheel size from manufacturers spec you had better get the speedo re-calibrated as it will now be lying.
    i am also surprised that a Merc 4.10 weighs in at only 2.7 ton
    as for the rear wheel issue i would be surprised if you can get away with running a single on a dual axle legally.

    also if i was your insurance company and you had an incident with this vehicle i would be looking at this as a reason for not paying out on your claim.
     
  6. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Hi folks
    Thanks for all the replies. We have weighbridge where I work and that's the weight alright! Had a few people (well everybody) saying about the legality in the event of an accident.
    I take on board what you are all saying and I'll get doubles on the rear axel. Would probably get away with driving in Ireland as it is, but if I go into Northern Ireland, UK or Europe UK I'd be stuffed.

    The missus is getting peeved at this stage, I just keep spending money like it's going outy of fashion!!:Rofl1:

    Thanks to ye all.
     
  7. JJ

    JJ Funster

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    Good man... you know it makes sense... also with four driving wheels at the back you get better stability and more grip in damp conditions...

    ... but keep off continental toll roads... with twin wheels on the back they count you as a big truck :Angry:

    JJ :Cool:
     
  8. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Can't fit the second wheel on!!!!!:Doh: It's rubbiing off the leaf spring. Some body mentioned doing something with the springs, any ideas?

    Might try a smaller tire have 225/75/R16 Load Index 118 on at the moment.
     
  9. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    i think changing the tyre width will be the only way. theres no way a set of spacers will take the strain of twin wheels.
     
  10. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Hi Thebig1,
    Can't use spacers because of the hub centric. Spacers would leave the wheels sitting on the studs only. That wouldn't be good. Going to have to find a nice friendly garage who will try different size tyres on for me!!

    Can anything be done with the springs?

    Dave
     
  11. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    I cant think of anything you could safely do with the springs. even fitting airbags in place of the bumpstops wont work, as it wont change how far into the wheelarch the tyres go. the tyre width is the only way to change this, (or fit different wheels,) as narrower tyres take up less space. your 225/75/16 tyres are 225mm wide without a load, so 205 tyres are 205mm wide etc
     
  12. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Hi TheBig1,
    Found a post on The Dark Side from a guy who put the bigger tyres on and shaved the leaf springs to allow for the tyre bulge!

    Is this doable? or dangerous? If you're not carrying huge weight may be okay? no?

    Do you know anyone who could advise?


    Dave.
     
  13. veevee

    veevee Funster

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    Dave, what is the wheel rim width? It should be stamped on the rim somewhere.
     
  14. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Can't look at it now but I'mm 99% sure it's 6"? Why?
     
  15. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    with the size you have now fitted (225/75/R16) you will probably get 'tyre kiss' if reverting to the twin wheel set up.

    tyre 'kiss' is when the inside walls of the twin tyre setup touch each other where they 'belly' out at the bottom.

    this is potentially dangerous as the tyres will overheat due to rubbing together resulting in a blowout of one tyre at least.

    you are wading through treacle with this kind of mod.

    with a single wheel setup you have altered the axles designed weight limit.
    doubtful your insurers would approve the 'alteration'.
    putting the wheels on back to front will probably put undue stress on the wheel bearings.
    chances are it wont pass an MOT, if the tester is worth his salt
    with a twin wheel setup, of the new size, you will overheat the tyres due to tyre kiss.
    any alteration to the springs to stop the tyre rubbing will not be possible without major re-engineering and wouldnt get insurance approval.
    at an indicated 55mph you will probably be doing a true speed of over 60mph and its illegal to have a speedo indicate too slow.
    at vehicle manufacture the speedo is designed, by law, to read fast or be accurate..but never slow.

    the only realistic way to overcome the revs/noise problem is to alter the final drive ratio.

    assuming you are rear wheel drive it would be easier to change the rear axle for one of a higher ratio and recalibrate the speedo to suit.
    front wheel drive would possibly need a different gearbox from a model designed for a different working environment.

    personally, i would leave it as it was and spend the money on better, more efficient, sound deadening materials
     
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  16. TheBig1

    TheBig1 Funster Life Member

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    shaving down springs is very dangerous, as it seriously weakens the spring leading to a likely failure with the spring failing at the weak point. I dont know of any engineer who would do this, if they did, the springs would need to be re-engineered and heat treated.

    i know it used to be a fairly common practice with some custom car builders, but these were lighter vehicles obviously. you certainly cant just take an angle grinder to the springs and shave a bulge out

    As Papajohn has already pointed out, there is a lot more to changing the wheel setup especially with twin wheels, than it appears initially. I dont want to be alarmist, but i am sure you wouldnt want a wheel shearing off, a tyre blowout or suspension collapse when driving at speed on a motorway. not good to think about, but get this wheel change wrong and thats a "possible" outcome
     
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  17. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Hi Papajohn,
    the wheels came of a twin setup from a 609 merc so tyre kiss won't be an issue. These tyre have a load index of 118 meaning I'm only shy by about 400kgs for the rating of the van (for the rean axel) I spoke with one of the mechanics in the test center and he said it was fine to run on one wheel as long as the tyre had the appropiate LI number.
    I've checked the speed and at 60kmh on the speeedo I'm doing 77kmh. I intend to get this adjusted when I get the wheels sorted
    See attched post form a guy who has done this a few times. Have a read and tell me what you think?

    Dave.

    http://************************/ftopicp-1252816.html#1252816
     
  18. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Link does not seem to be coming across. This is What the Guy said to me.
    1252814 [​IMG] Posted: Today - 10:54 pm[​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] merctoby [​IMG]

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    hi ! dave.

    sorry to answer so slow , been off the net have been doing the camper for our long drive through europe in june [​IMG] .
    at the moment your camper is like a boat on the road with these 14, wheels on and is a pig on the roads on corners lean dont they when you put these 16" wheels on it will be a hugger on the road like glue and you can feel absolute confidence with her now you will be shocked i mean this no slow corners any more i am not a hooligan on the road neither too old for that sort of thing lol!
    sorry again dave ! the answer to the springs are you the kind if guy that has get up and do your self !. it is about 2 hour,s work over the pit , or 4 hours, under axle stands good one,s but safe . i will answer 1 question for you now you can get super singles for your camper and they are allumimium all round how exp! do not know you can look around in here cannot for the life of me remember the web address gut they are german or norway , all i can remember about it was you order all your accessories awning toilet accessories ect, ect, their might be a connection with omnistor ? ,,

    right the springs , germans have always over compensated with every part on the vehicle which is very good where mercedes say max weight is say 1 ton max in fact it will exceed 2 ton , where you might say i need a 6 " wide peace of metal to hold the weight, germans will say no! i want 8 " when 6" is completely acceptable they go over the top . so they last forever . the way you proceed with this is. some one confidant with a 240 a/c 6" grinder a chalk thin chalk that is now the inner wheel will not fit because it will touch the spring and with the outer one on this will touch the outer arch !.
    now put the inner wheel on and tighten the wheel so it will be pressed against the spring ! you do not need to go all the way with this i mean as long as it is against the spring that is fine on the inside you are looking at the wheel pressed to the spring now chalk on the spring where the rubber is pressed from the tread side to the bead of the road wheel take the wheel off and you will see a curved chalk line on the spring at the deepest part of the chalk mark you might have 4 mm now start your grinder and grind out until you are down the the chalk in fact grind until the chalk disappears put your road wheel on and the outer wheel on tighten them up and turn the wheel check for clearance as long as you can slip between the wheel and spring some thing like gasket which is about 2mm turn wheel and look for snags or you could chalk the area that has been grinded, wheel on. and turn if the chalk is showing on the tyre wall you need a little more out . but remember this if you put a tyre on like i have which is 215x75 you cannot exceed that width as you have grinded for this size do not go wider stick to tyre size, wheel height is not an issue with this model i must say i have the 16 " wheel and i carry a bit of weight the tyre is up inside the arch safe does more than it is said on the tin if you get my meaning 100% safe to do . i will post some picture,s of mine for you how mine look my weight is unladen 3.6kg max 4.6kg it is the best way around this issue years ago they used 205 tyre high wall tyre,s to get more speed , i did this to my old model the s660 about 4-5 years ago then bought the s700 so i did it again save a lot diesel if you have driven these a long time if you have the old 617 engine 2.9 you can also advance the pump to get better mpg and more power and lower rev"s again .

    so said to much again hope it helps , all x/- lol,

    ok dave hope this has not frightened you to much , but you have a bad problem running as you are now it is an accident waiting to happen really . your rear bearing are now under weight pressure and your rear shoe brake,s will not expand as they should normally i would put the 4 back on and do this to sort the problem lot,s of people have done this in the past .

    but hey ! good luck and have fun it,s easy !
    take care , denton. [​IMG]
    "
    hi ! dave.

    sorry to answer so slow , been off the net have been doing the camper for our long drive through europe in june [​IMG] .
    at the moment your camper is like a boat on the road with these 14, wheels on and is a pig on the roads on corners lean dont they when you put these 16" wheels on it will be a hugger on the road like glue and you can feel absolute confidence with her now you will be shocked i mean this no slow corners any more i am not a hooligan on the road neither too old for that sort of thing lol!
    sorry again dave ! the answer to the springs are you the kind if guy that has get up and do your self !. it is about 2 hour,s work over the pit , or 4 hours, under axle stands good one,s but safe . i will answer 1 question for you now you can get super singles for your camper and they are allumimium all round how exp! do not know you can look around in here cannot for the life of me remember the web address gut they are german or norway , all i can remember about it was you order all your accessories awning toilet accessories ect, ect, their might be a connection with omnistor ? ,,

    right the springs , germans have always over compensated with every part on the vehicle which is very good where mercedes say max weight is say 1 ton max in fact it will exceed 2 ton , where you might say i need a 6 " wide peace of metal to hold the weight, germans will say no! i want 8 " when 6" is completely acceptable they go over the top . so they last forever . the way you proceed with this is. some one confidant with a 240 a/c 6" grinder a chalk thin chalk that is now the inner wheel will not fit because it will touch the spring and with the outer one on this will touch the outer arch !.
    now put the inner wheel on and tighten the wheel so it will be pressed against the spring ! you do not need to go all the way with this i mean as long as it is against the spring that is fine on the inside you are looking at the wheel pressed to the spring now chalk on the spring where the rubber is pressed from the tread side to the bead of the road wheel take the wheel off and you will see a curved chalk line on the spring at the deepest part of the chalk mark you might have 4 mm now start your grinder and grind out until you are down the the chalk in fact grind until the chalk disappears put your road wheel on and the outer wheel on tighten them up and turn the wheel check for clearance as long as you can slip between the wheel and spring some thing like gasket which is about 2mm turn wheel and look for snags or you could chalk the area that has been grinded, wheel on. and turn if the chalk is showing on the tyre wall you need a little more out . but remember this if you put a tyre on like i have which is 215x75 you cannot exceed that width as you have grinded for this size do not go wider stick to tyre size, wheel height is not an issue with this model i must say i have the 16 " wheel and i carry a bit of weight the tyre is up inside the arch safe does more than it is said on the tin if you get my meaning 100% safe to do . i will post some picture,s of mine for you how mine look my weight is unladen 3.6kg max 4.6kg it is the best way around this issue years ago they used 205 tyre high wall tyre,s to get more speed , i did this to my old model the s660 about 4-5 years ago then bought the s700 so i did it again save a lot diesel if you have driven these a long time if you have the old 617 engine 2.9 you can also advance the pump to get better mpg and more power and lower rev"s again .

    so said to much again hope it helps , all x/- lol,

    ok dave hope this has not frightened you to much , but you have a bad problem running as you are now it is an accident waiting to happen really . your rear bearing are now under weight pressure and your rear shoe brake,s will not expand as they should normally i would put the 4 back on and do this to sort the problem lot,s of people have done this in the past .

    but hey ! good luck and have fun it,s easy !
    take care , denton. [​IMG]
    "
    1252814 [​IMG] Posted: Today - 10:54 pm[​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] merctoby [​IMG]

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    hi ! dave.

    sorry to answer so slow , been off the net have been doing the camper for our long drive through europe in june [​IMG] .
    at the moment your camper is like a boat on the road with these 14, wheels on and is a pig on the roads on corners lean dont they when you put these 16" wheels on it will be a hugger on the road like glue and you can feel absolute confidence with her now you will be shocked i mean this no slow corners any more i am not a hooligan on the road neither too old for that sort of thing lol!
    sorry again dave ! the answer to the springs are you the kind if guy that has get up and do your self !. it is about 2 hour,s work over the pit , or 4 hours, under axle stands good one,s but safe . i will answer 1 question for you now you can get super singles for your camper and they are allumimium all round how exp! do not know you can look around in here cannot for the life of me remember the web address gut they are german or norway , all i can remember about it was you order all your accessories awning toilet accessories ect, ect, their might be a connection with omnistor ? ,,

    right the springs , germans have always over compensated with every part on the vehicle which is very good where mercedes say max weight is say 1 ton max in fact it will exceed 2 ton , where you might say i need a 6 " wide peace of metal to hold the weight, germans will say no! i want 8 " when 6" is completely acceptable they go over the top . so they last forever . the way you proceed with this is. some one confidant with a 240 a/c 6" grinder a chalk thin chalk that is now the inner wheel will not fit because it will touch the spring and with the outer one on this will touch the outer arch !.
    now put the inner wheel on and tighten the wheel so it will be pressed against the spring ! you do not need to go all the way with this i mean as long as it is against the spring that is fine on the inside you are looking at the wheel pressed to the spring now chalk on the spring where the rubber is pressed from the tread side to the bead of the road wheel take the wheel off and you will see a curved chalk line on the spring at the deepest part of the chalk mark you might have 4 mm now start your grinder and grind out until you are down the the chalk in fact grind until the chalk disappears put your road wheel on and the outer wheel on tighten them up and turn the wheel check for clearance as long as you can slip between the wheel and spring some thing like gasket which is about 2mm turn wheel and look for snags or you could chalk the area that has been grinded, wheel on. and turn if the chalk is showing on the tyre wall you need a little more out . but remember this if you put a tyre on like i have which is 215x75 you cannot exceed that width as you have grinded for this size do not go wider stick to tyre size, wheel height is not an issue with this model i must say i have the 16 " wheel and i carry a bit of weight the tyre is up inside the arch safe does more than it is said on the tin if you get my meaning 100% safe to do . i will post some picture,s of mine for you how mine look my weight is unladen 3.6kg max 4.6kg it is the best way around this issue years ago they used 205 tyre high wall tyre,s to get more speed , i did this to my old model the s660 about 4-5 years ago then bought the s700 so i did it again save a lot diesel if you have driven these a long time if you have the old 617 engine 2.9 you can also advance the pump to get better mpg and more power and lower rev"s again .

    so said to much again hope it helps , all x/- lol,

    ok dave hope this has not frightened you to much , but you have a bad problem running as you are now it is an accident waiting to happen really . your rear bearing are now under weight pressure and your rear shoe brake,s will not expand as they should normally i would put the 4 back on and do this to sort the problem lot,s of people have done this in the past .

    but hey ! good luck and have fun it,s easy !
    take care , denton. [​IMG]
     
  19. dflambe

    dflambe Read Only Funster

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    Hi Lads,
    I hear what you are all saying about safety and stuff like that, and I can assure you that I'm not the type to disregard all your advice and am certainly not going to endanger myself or loved ones for the sake of a few liters of diesel and and extra 10mph.

    I'm just exploring the possibilities. I still have my original 14" wheels in the garage if I need them.

    Dave.
     
  20. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    while i cant open the link you placed (this forum doesn't allow links to certain websites and thats a 'fact' :Wink:) i have read the relevant thread/posts on the other forum, and in my opinion Merctoby is mad putting an angle grinder to the side of the leaf springs :Eeek: and then leaving just a millimetre or two clearance. :Doh:
    a little distortion in the tyre and it will rub on the spring.

    all he's done, in my opinion, is introduce a weak spot in the leaf spring even though he says the springs are over engineered for the weight
     
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