Clutch Conundrum (ducato 2.8 jtd 2002)

Discussion in 'Fiat' started by matthewb, Feb 21, 2016.

  1. matthewb

    matthewb Read Only Funster

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    so the background is this.
    Eura mobil tag axle on fiat ducato 2.8jtd 2002 ( van probably a 2001... but the clutch is hydraulic)

    2014 summer holidays... all loaded up to just under max (4500kg) and leave home in cornwall headed for the ferry port. The van hasnt been used much since the previous summer( moved a few times for its mot and a few runs probably once a month) all going lovely until i reach a steep hill on the way out of cornwall.... clutch starts to slip...... doent quite believe it but back off and try again on the next hill sure wnough slips again... start to panic but what to do? the ferry is wating. So we decide to go for it anyway and board the santander ferry. The WHOLE way down im on the internet searching for "how to replace clutch" or "cost of clutch replacements in spain" and generally panicking. When we get to spain i dump a full bottle of water in the bell casing.... ( why? i really dont know!!) and we head off for our 6 weeks holiday. Well i babied the clutch to start with but as the 6 weeks went on i became braver and started to drive it normally again. It did not slip once....... including driving up and over the picos de europa and the pyrenees on the way back.......

    2015 summer holidays... exactly the same as 2014.. fully loaded and not used hardly since last summer... and slips on the way to the ferry port. again i can get it to slip at will just by pushing hard on the "go pedal". Get on the ferry (to france this time) and worry about the clkutch again... but not as much as last year.. get to france and spend 6 weeks driving around france... up hill down dale and the clutch does not slip at all for the whole trip.

    2016 this last weekend, drive to oxford for the weekend,( lightly loaded probably about 3800kg), first time the van has been anywhere since last september, get out of cornwall ok, fill up with fuel at Weston super mare, get back on the motorway and slip slip slip the rest of teh way to oxford. Obviously as soon as it does it i am backing it off but even so its really easy to get it to slip this time. AND the pedal feels funny, kind of like it is not coming back up all the way, and if i hook my toe under it i can make it return up to a higher position by pulling on it. Get to the campsite at oxford, park up for 3 days.. not too worried as we are in the uk and can get the breakdown to get us home if we have to . So this morning we rock off the chocks and head for home....... clutch pedal no longer feels funny... and whatever i do i cant get the clutch to slip, even on the meanest steepest hill near home it doesnt want to slip. at one point i "think" it started to slip... but im not sure... it may well have been me being paranoid. On the way up to oxford i could make it slip at will........

    so the question is... what on earth is going on?
    I am reluctant to replace the clutch unless i can work out why it is slipping and why the problem is intermittent and after long periods of standing. Any clues?
    Does anyone have a link to an exploded diagram of the clutch assembly? or a decent workshop manual( i have been looking and looking!)
     
  2. airwave

    airwave Funster

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    Hmmm , Two question's , What mileage has the vehicle done on this clutch , and when was it last serviced ? .

    I'm guessing , there are no puddle's under the motor !
     
  3. mitzimad

    mitzimad Funster

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    one possibility is clutch is sticking on the splines due to sitting unused for a while
     
  4. matthewb

    matthewb Read Only Funster

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    60000 miles ( original clutch), serviced annually by me.
    Nope no puddles at all.

    I could believe the clutch is shot... and yet....... why doesnt it slip all the time?
     
  5. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    Long shot but.....

    It may be the slave cylinder is sticky and not fully returning until it gets some proper use.
    Lifting the pedal will only be taking any slack out of the master cylinder actuator rod clevises.
    Standing for months at a time wont do it any favours.
    Going on your symptoms I would replace the cylinder before the clutch.....and it will be cheaper.
     
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  6. matthewb

    matthewb Read Only Funster

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    thanks mitzimad.. that sounds like an interesting thought and would "fit" with the symptoms
     
  7. matthewb

    matthewb Read Only Funster

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    thanks pappajohn, that too sounds interesting. is the slave cylinder inside the bell housing? if so i guess its a strip down to get at it?

    I am heading for croatia this year so quite keen to make a decision early on the work that needs doing... bit of a pain having it done whilst away and all loaded up!
     
  8. chaser

    chaser Funster

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    I have seen one like this before, my son in law repaired one, it was the slave cylinder leaking on to the clutch while standing but burning off when traveling, does your brake/clutch fluid need topping up regular , if it does that's your problem.(y)
     
  9. matthewb

    matthewb Read Only Funster

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    clutch /brake fluid does not need topping up........
     
  10. airwave

    airwave Funster

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    I seriously doubt the clutch need's replacing , my friend , if that was the case it would slip all the time ( actually it would probably have failed completely by now ) , but at 60k , nah . It does indeed sound more like something is sticking after lay up . You say you believe it's hydraulic , have you done a visual check to confirm this , it probably is , however there maybe a cable somewhere .
     
  11. Derbyshire wanderer

    Derbyshire wanderer Funster Life Member

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    I think it will be the master cylinder rather than the slave cylinder. The rubber boot needs pulling back that covers the actuator rod and it is likely that the bore is dry and rusty. Give it a clean up and put some proper brake grease in there (don't use anything else or the seals WILL leak) and you should never have this occur again.
    The reason for the master cylinder is that the slave has all of the clutch springs pushing it back so the first operation pushes any crud forward before it releases.
    The master cylinder piston is pushed away from the crud but does not get a chance to push it out of the way.
     
  12. chaser

    chaser Funster

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    O
    On
    On the one I have seen, the cylender is inside the bell house ing and there were no outward signs of anything wrong, and the bloke brought it in because he thought the brakes were leaking as he had to top up occasionally, well it serves both so the only thing it could be was leaking inside the bell housing anyway it was got off and lo and behold there was his brake fluid, it was only then that he said he had the same trouble as you describe with his clutch, anyway replaced clutch and cylender while it was split and no trouble since.
     
  13. tonyidle

    tonyidle Funster

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    My hydraulic clutch 2005 2.8jtd (probably same as yours) has a gas strut on the pedal to lighten the (foot) pressure needed to disengage it. The strut is arranged so that it is just over centre so it doesn't assist with the first part of pedal travel and therefore doesn't apply any pressure to the clutch pedal when the clutch is fully engaged. My clutch has occasionally slipped and can be instantly cured by hooking a toe under the clutch pedal and lifting it. What I think is happening is that dirt or pedal pivot wear is preventing the pedal returning fully to the rest position so the gas strut is 'riding the pedal' just enough to cause slip. I haven't looked for a solution as yet and have only investigated as far as noticing the strut and understanding what it does. Next time it happens try lifting the pedal - it doesn't move up by much but if I'm correct the clutch will stop slipping.
     
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  14. airwave

    airwave Funster

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    Ah , now i see your a read only funster , and as you have answered 5 time's , your need to fully join to answer any more .

    That said , i side with Derbyshire wanderer , and would go with with linkage's , however i would check them all , tracing the full run . Including the clutch pedal itself .

    I doubt you have slave cylinder issue's (though it's not impossible) , due to the fact , that ,
    A , your not topping up the fluid , and ,
    B ,you say , there are no puddle's under the van . If it was leaking inside the bell housing you would still need to top the fluid up and once the fluid gets on the clutch plate itself , well , goodbye clutch , it wont clean off . Like brake fluid on brake shoe's , they don't mix .
     
  15. airwave

    airwave Funster

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    Oh , one other thing , be careful with clutch/brake fluid , it's the best paint stripper i've come across . Trouble is once it get's on the surface , no paint will stick
     
  16. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

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    The only difference between a slave cylinder and a disc brake caliper is the shape....both do the same thing...pushing a piston out of a tube.
    If your brake disc cant push the piston back by normal disc flexing on cornering etc because of corrosion/crud then your brakes begin binding.
    If the clutch springs cant push the piston back in due to corrosion/crud, it holds the pressure plate ever so slightly off the clutch plate...result =clutch slip.
    Dont forget, the seal is inside the cylinder, whether on the piston or cylinder, and corrosion can be inside the cylinder and the piston has to pass over it....and return over it..
     
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  17. jaygee

    jaygee Funster

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    If it's any consolation we had to have the clutch replaced on our Fiat whilst we were in Croatia (it went due to re-map but that's another story!!). We had it done at a little independent garage and it cost us less than it would have in the UK, using the same parts -- and we should know as run our own garage!!
     
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