Sargent charger (3 Viewers)

[laurieash]

I wish the Japanese would build a motor home.
as nearly every time I want to go out in it there's always something to fix.
or is it just Autofails

 

[laurieash]

[QUOsuggestions on a good pair of batteries as I was told banner were good. ="aandncaravan, post: 2111769, member: 25844"]Sorry to hear that they are Banner.

If you search on the MMM forum you will see quite a few threads on the early demise of Banner batteries, especially if a Solar Panel is fitted but the Solar charger is not one of the new breed with a 13.0 - 13.2v maintenance/float.

I would suggest you open up the Banners and see if they are dry?
Many retailers, including Bailey, Road Pro, etc sell them as Maintenance free when they actually have a very high fluid loss rate. Especially when Solar charged.

A Thread on this Forum yesterday from someone who had seen our 'rantings' on Banners batteries, checked their own Banner battery bank and had to add 80ml to EACH of the 12 cells on his two batteries.

If you have two Banned batteries and they have dropped to 11.4v, I really would suggest you don't try and reuse them?


.[/QUOTE]
Any su

 

[Jaws]

I would have thought that the sola pannel would have kept them topped up?
Laurie.

So would I ...You sure you have checked all the fuses ?

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[laurieash]

[QUOsuggestions on a good pair of batteries as I was told banner were good. ="aandncaravan, post: 2111769, member: 25844"]Sorry to hear that they are Banner.

If you search on the MMM forum you will see quite a few threads on the early demise of Banner batteries, especially if a Solar Panel is fitted but the Solar charger is not one of the new breed with a 13.0 - 13.2v maintenance/float.

I would suggest you open up the Banners and see if they are dry?
Many retailers, including Bailey, Road Pro, etc sell them as Maintenance free when they actually have a very high fluid loss rate. Especially when Solar charged.

A Thread on this Forum yesterday from someone who had seen our 'rantings' on Banners batteries, checked their own Banner battery bank and had to add 80ml to EACH of the 12 cells on his two batteries.

If you have two Banned batteries and they have dropped to 11.4v, I really would suggest you don't try and reuse them?


.

Any su[/QUOTE]

So would I ...You sure you have checked all the fuses ?

Not got to van yet will try and get there on Tuesday. Will try all suggestions, thanks for all your inputs.
Laurie.

 

[aandncaravan]

Banner batteries appear to use an old fashion high Antimony Lead construction, first used in the 1930's.
Antimony makes a Lead Acid battery stronger and helps a battery survive a deeper discharge than batteries that went before it. It is sometimes the construction of choice by some old fashioned heavy duty deep discharge manufacturers.
However, Antimony Lead Acid batteries Gas and lose fluid. If the charger profile is also an old fashioned low voltage, like 13.5v or less, they can be quite tuff batteries.
However, most Modern Motorhomes have chargers which charge the batteries more quickly than previously, typically at 14.4v. This type of charger (mains, Solar or Alternator) can make an Antimony battery Gas and corrode excessively, with a very short life as a result. 18 months is not uncommon.

I would guess your batteries have dried out and died. Not even the best Solar Panel in the world will keep those charged. See this post :
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/posts/2110445/

We don't sell batteries, but recommend Powerframe based Varta LFD/Bosch L5 as they charge more quickly than most conventional batteries (typically twice as fast as Gel and AGM).
They have a unique construction (I mean unique as it is patented so can't be copied) where the Grid is Rolled, not pressed or stamped in the usual way, and made with a special Silver Alloy. This endows the battery with high efficiencey. Varta claim upto 70% better electrical conductivity.
They don't gas, even at higher temperatures, so don't lose fluid. But in addition the case has a 'sealing method' that ensures any Fluid is returned to the cells as Acid.
They have a very slow self discharge rate, typically less than 1% a month, 10% in 6 months.
A higher resting voltage of 13v is normal.
They are easier to manufacture than a conventional battery and use 20% less energy, so cheaper to produce.
Hence the cost of £79 for a 90Ah battery which is about the best you can get in the up to £150 bracket.
Blah, Blah, Blah, etc

It goes on so I won't bore you, but see here for more :
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

This page explains also how a battery works, but focus's just as much on why they fail so you can choose a battery that suits yourusage : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-battery-work.php


A high Antimony battery is not a bad battery, if you have a Motorhome that you don't drive many miles in (so doesn't get Alternator 14.4v much) don't have Solar (unless it is one of the very new 2016 13.2v regulators) and your mains charger is one of the old generation 13.5v units and you don't leave it on long term EHU it will give very good life. So long as you don't mind the high self discharge rate.


However, we don't think they are suited to modern Motorhomes technology, just not up to the way Motorhomes are now used.
It must be 20 years since I had a Starter battery that needed topping up and the technology is out there for All manufacturers to adopt for ALL batteries. So I think, a major failing on Banners part.

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[hilldweller]

We don't sell batteries, but recommend Powerframe based Varta LFD/Bosch L5.

That's one hell of a good sales pitch. Will remember when next battery needed.

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[aandncaravan]

.............. and because we don't sell ANY batteries, just about as impartial as you can get.

 

[laurieash]

So for a lot of my cars over the years landrovers and other 4x4s i have used Varta batteries. had no problems.
So if i replaced my 2 Banner batteries for Varta LDF/Bosch L5 this would be a better way to go?
As i mostly use my Motorhome wild camping so on Sola. Need to get this sorted as will be in Portugal in January for 3 months no hook ups.managed the last 3 years no problems.

 

[PhilandMena]

Both Vatra and Banner have a solid reputation for high end leisure batteries. However, if you use the wrong battery type, i.e. a Banner starter battery as a leisure battery, you will not get the performance or life that you may have expected. Banner, like Vatra make a lot of different batteries for different applications. Also, a leisure battery life is expressed as the number of cycles at a given rate of discharge, usually 50%. (So, 200 cycles at 50% means the battery can be discharged to half it's capacity and fully recharged 200 times before it pops its clogs). This, I.M.O. should always be a key aspect of purchasing a new battery.

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[PhilandMena]

So for a lot of my cars over the years landrovers and other 4x4s i have used Varta batteries. had no problems.
So if i replaced my 2 Banner batteries for Varta LDF/Bosch L5 this would be a better way to go?
As i mostly use my Motorhome wild camping so on Sola. Need to get this sorted as will be in Portugal in January for 3 months no hook ups.managed the last 3 years no problems.

We too will be in Portugal but towards beginning to mid April to avoid the crap weather.
We have a similar set up ! I have 2 x 100 Ah batteries and a 125 W solar panel. Last year we spent 3 months in Morocco and mostly off hook up and managed OK. We have LED lighting and use little power during the day , and averaging around 4-5 Amp's per day from the S.P. when the sun was up. So you could be OK and if you know your battery state. You can always go on hook up for 24 hrs at a campsite to keep your batteries topped up as a last resort. I have now purchased another S.P. just to be on the safe side and this connects directly to the leisure battery and ensures we have more than enough power to remain off hook up for weeks on end.
https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en...ny-other-12V-system---German-solar-cells.html
Does not interfere with my existing S.P. set up and works a treat.
Enjoy your trip.

 

[aandncaravan]

Laurieash, it is a decision you need to make, but I truly believe that that for less than £150, there is not a better battery for most Modern Motorhomes than the Varta LFD 90.
It is the same size as most battery boxes being identical physically to the now very 'elderly' Exide G80 battery.



PhilandMena, If you are right, the huge Hymer group have made a big mistake this year ditching the fitment of Banner batteries in favour of Varta? I am pretty sure it is to do with the huge number of premature failures?

I think if you look around the Forums you will see that not many hold the Banner in as high regard as the very impressive advertising tries to make us believe? None more so than the German forums.

I remember reading an advert in MMM last year that stated, and I quote, "Banner Batteries are the best in the World". It wasn't backed up by any claim it had special technology inside or anything at all of substance. Just pure Bull*&£@.
Just conning people, and many were taken in. That on it's own tells you a lot about the advertising that went on. It wasn't advertising by Banner but by one of the biggest Banner retailers in the UK.
You can maybe tell that wound me up a little?

If Northstar made the claim about it's Pure Lead technology battery, it might be quite hard to contest, but the Banners we have cut open were spectacular for their absence of any features!!


Anyone out there who does believe they are the best in the World, could maybe post on here all the special technology inside the battery that makes it so?


Pretty unlikely, IMO, that a company ranked at only sixth biggest, is better than Yuasa, Exide or Varta, etc? I would rate the Banner batteries we have seen in 'the metal' as a long way even behind the tiny Victron Energy company, whose batteries we do rate.

Sorry, but I think the reputation is a fraud, built up out of advertising by one major retailer.
Who had even heard of Banner batteries 7 years ago?
Where has the reputation come from?
How many indepently verified Technical tests have you seen that rate the Banner above all other batteries around?
We are not aware of a single independent test of any substance.


It's funny, I have vague recollections of something similar happening with Elecsol Batteries around 8 years ago.


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[PhilandMena]

If Northstar made the claim about it's Pure Lead technology battery, it might be quite hard to contest, but the Banners we have cut open were spectacular for their absence of any features!!


Anyone out there who does believe they are the best in the World, could maybe post on here all the special technology inside the battery that makes it so?


Pretty unlikely, IMO, that a company ranked at only sixth biggest, is better than Yuasa, Exide or Varta, etc? I would rate the Banner batteries we have seen in 'the metal' as a long way even behind the tiny Victron Energy company, whose batteries we do rate.

Sorry, but I think the reputation is a fraud, built up out of advertising by one major retailer.
Who had even heard of Banner batteries 7 years ago?
Where has the reputation come from?
How many indepently verified Technical tests have you seen that rate the Banner above all other batteries around?
We are not aware of a single independent test of any substance.


It's funny, I have vague recollections of something similar happening with Elecsol Batteries around 8 years ago.


.

Me thinks you are wrong ! Here is the independent testing results for Banner batteries that you say does not exist.
http://www.thencc.org.uk/our_schemes/ncc_verified_leisure_battery_scheme.aspx

They, (Banner) have batteries that fall into category A, B & C. The C Class being their starter batteries. It's a pity there are no Vatra batteries in any of these categories as one could then see a true independent test result rather than an opinion from one individual. Incidently, do you know what the DOD and cycle life is for the Vatra battery you keep promoting on here. I am unable to find it.

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[PhilandMena]

As an aside, some members may find this technical paper of interests and justifies IMO why we need independent verification on leisure batteries, conducted by suitably certified and audited test houses

 

[aandncaravan]

While we agree 100% on a Independent test process, I am sorry but the link you have pasted takes me to a webpage run by an Organisation that gets it's funding from other commercial organisations, some of whom are Battery suppliers??
Not very independent?

Nothing at all about the outstanding Banner Battery qualities and why it should be the battery of choice over a Halfords battery? It doesn't even list the Banner Energy qualities, let alone rate them.

Nor does it say anything about :
It's self discharge rate
It's temperature operation range,
Rate of fluid loss,
Rate of Corrosion
Efficiencey rating.
Resting Voltage.
Manufacture date
Expected Number of Ah after 3 years
It's fully charged voltage.
It's safe fully discharged voltage (Probably something everyone wants to know more than anything else so they are not run down too far?)
Whether it tries to hide it's manufacture date, or is open when it was made?
It's construction and Technology
Expected life and durability
Etc,


What it does tell you is the exact same information on Size, Ah and Cycles that you will read in the manufacturers Battery brochure.

The so called verification 'tests' are carried out 'in secret', They not only don't publish any test results, they don't even publish were the 'so called Laboratory' is located or who the company are.
Nor will they publish details of how the testing is carried out.

I asked for copies of the test results and my request was declined.

Sorry we don't believe they are Independent, and are secret to the point of being unbelievable.


I thought that when the NCC announced their Verified scheme, it would be a little more than a reprint of manufacturer's brochures.

To me it is not only a waste of time, but they actually propose batteries that are unfit for purpose.
They suggest that Caravans with a Motor Mover should fit an AGM battery, which requires a 14.7v charger to both reach full charge and prolong it's life. Yet without exception, not one Caravan has been delivered by any manufacturer in the UK with an AGM charger.
Around 50% of all Caravans have a fixed 13.5v charger that would kill an AGM battery in less than 2 years. the rest can reach 14.2 - 14.4v.
I think that tells you a lot on the usefulness of the scheme?


If you look through the batteries allegedly 'Verified' it includes Halfords, Duracell, Easystart, Lucas, etc.

I am hoping it will develop. But don't have any real belief it will.



.

 

[laurieash]

We too will be in Portugal but towards beginning to mid April to avoid the crap weather.
We have a similar set up ! I have 2 x 100 Ah batteries and a 125 W solar panel. Last year we spent 3 months in Morocco and mostly off hook up and managed OK. We have LED lighting and use little power during the day , and averaging around 4-5 Amp's per day from the S.P. when the sun was up. So you could be OK and if you know your battery state. You can always go on hook up for 24 hrs at a campsite to keep your batteries topped up as a last resort. I have now purchased another S.P. just to be on the safe side and this connects directly to the leisure battery and ensures we have more than enough power to remain off hook up for weeks on end.
https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en...ny-other-12V-system---German-solar-cells.html
Does not interfere with my existing S.P. set up and works a treat.
Enjoy your trip.

That S P sounds a good idea as in January the sun is a lot lower in sky also sun not out as long.
To fit another one on the roof would cost the same.

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[PhilandMena]

That S P sounds a good idea as in January the sun is a lot lower in sky also sun not out as long.
To fit another one on the roof would cost the same.

My preference would have been to fit another S.P on the roof. However, my factory fitted Sargent S.P. regulator is rated at 10 Amps max and I was not sure what would happen if I breached the 10 Amps. This folding S.P. is brilliant, comes with it's own mppt controller and I have snap connectors already connected to one of my leisure batteries so the connection is very easy. We carry the S.P. behind one the front two seats when driving and at night the front seats are reversed and the S.P just sits behind one without any interference with the hab area, ready for putting out in the morning.

 

[PhilandMena]

While we agree 100% on a Independent test process, I am sorry but the link you have pasted takes me to a webpage run by an Organisation that gets it's funding from other commercial organisations, some of whom are Battery suppliers??
Not very independent?
.

Wrong again. You keep moving the goalposts to support your claims. Yes the NCC may well be funded from various manufacturers including Battery suppliers but this has nothing to do with the actual testing of batteries. Their website states' Battery verification comes via a comprehensive, industry leading, testing process conducted by suitably certified and audited test houses. Batteries will be verified and labelled accordingly, into three categories: A, B and C, depending on their capacity and intended purpose'
My gut feeling is your nose is out of joint because they have refused to supply with test data and now your slagging them off and critical of them because they do not meet your test criteria.

 

[laurieash]

My preference would have been to fit another S.P on the roof. However, my factory fitted Sargent S.P. regulator is rated at 10 Amps max and I was not sure what would happen if I breached the 10 Amps. This folding S.P. is brilliant, comes with it's own mppt controller and I have snap connectors already connected to one of my leisure batteries so the connection is very easy. We carry the S.P. behind one the front two seats when driving and at night the front seats are reversed and the S.P just sits behind one without any interference with the hab area, ready for putting out in the morning.

Just purchased one, been thinking about a stand alone one for quite a while now.
Be good for the winter months so I can direct to the sun.
I had a talk to a chap at a show last year and he said if I put another panel on the roof through the Sargent system you may create more problems than you solve.
And he sold the panels.

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[PhilandMena]

It's worth buying the extension cable, then you can place your S.P. either side of the Motorhome. You can also buy some lightweight chain and a couple of locks and chain it to your front wheel during the day. Have a fair bit of length on the chain so you can preposition the S.P. as the day moves on without having to unlock it. When the sun goes down just lift it in behind the cab seat ready for taking out the next morning, assuming your not moving on. I place mine inside the protective case which I also keep behind the cab seat. Job done.

 

[laurieash]

It's worth buying the extension cable, then you can place your S.P. either side of the Motorhome. You can also buy some lightweight chain and a couple of locks and chain it to your front wheel during the day. Have a fair bit of length on the chain so you can preposition the S.P. as the day moves on without having to unlock it. When the sun goes down just lift it in behind the cab seat ready for taking out the next morning, assuming your not moving on. I place mine inside the protective case which I also keep behind the cab seat. Job done.

Is the extension cable on the same site?

 

[aandncaravan]

O.k so tell us all about the wonderful special technology that is inside a Banner Energy Bull that makes it so much better (and expensive) than it's nearest rival?

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[PhilandMena]

Is the extension cable on the same site?

Yes!

 

[PhilandMena]

O.k so tell us all about the wonderful special technology that is inside a Banner Energy Bull that makes it so much better (and expensive) than it's nearest rival?

Once again, you have misread me. I have never claimed in any of my previous posts that Banner is better than Vatra, in fact I have said they are both very good batteries and the Banner have been independently verified as meeting class A, B and C. of the NCC verified leisure battery scheeme. I have never made any statement about the technology behind the banner or Vatra batteries, this has been a totally one sided discussion from yourself
However, I am attaching a link that includes a technical paper on the construction of a Banner battery which in reality means nothing to me as I am not technically competent to determine the effect of two or more different make up's of lead acid batteries (or Gel & AGM) for that matter.
This is why I choose to have faith in the NCC verification scheme. All the expert and technical stuff is sorted out by them, it's the end results I am interested in. I never did find out what the DOD and number of cycles are for the Vatra battery you are promoting. I assume it is a low number of cycles, otherwise it would be a big selling point.
Link Removed

 

[PhilandMena]

Is the extension cable on the same site?

https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en...nic-Universe-folding-solar-charging-kits.html

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[aandncaravan]

Phil, we wrote
"How many indepently verified Technical tests have you seen, that rate the Banner above all other batteries around?
We are not aware of a single independent test of any substance".

You wrote back,
"Me thinks you are wrong ! Here is the independent testing results for Banner batteries that you say does not exist.
http://www.thencc.org.uk/our_schemes/ncc_verified_leisure_battery_scheme.aspx".

Yet the website isn't independent and the "tests" are suspect as no one independent is able to verify they were either done correctly or even see the results.

It certainly doesn't fall into the category of a "verified Technical test, that rates the Banner above all other batteries"???
It is a supposed test that any battery can take if you pay NCC some money.

In any case ALL the NCC Verify scheme does is confirm that it really is the physical size the manufacturer claims (not terribly useful in my view) and that in 'their tests' it has an Ah rating and cyclic ability as per the manufacturers claims. Again, when I can get that in the manufactuerers brochure, it isn't exactly a great deal of value?.


But as you put so much store by it, lets look in detail at the NCC 'scheme' and what it gives us :
It 'verifies' that the number of cycles the battery will go through is what the manufacturer claims. Yet just knowing an Exide battery has 330 cycles and a Banner has 331 cycles, is meaning less, because Exide may only rate a 'cycle' when that cycle delivers over 90% of the rated 100Ah capacity.
Banner might count a 'cycle' where only 30% (or just 30Ah) of the power is able to be drawn out of the battery, not a lot of use to a Motorhomer, but it might still be counted as a cycle by the manufacturer.
We can find no international standard on how a cycle is rated, so what criteria did the NCC use?


Each time a battery is charged and discharged, a little bit of the 'battery' dies, so the next time it is used it will deliver a little bit less power. That is how a Lead Acid batteries work, it is the chemistry, Lead acid/Gel/AGM work the same.

By the time it has been charged/discharged 222 times an Exide might be allowing you to still draw up to 80Ah to run your lights.
A Banner battery might only allow you to be taking 50Ah out of the battery.

So long as a battery will charge up and give back some power, no matter it is just 10ah, it may 'legally' count as a cycle. The fact you have used 156amps of mains charger to charge the battery up, and only get back 10Ah for the lights before it becomes discharged again, is irrelevant. It's a 'Cycle'.

The cycle 'count' should, in my opinion, only include a charge discharge cycle where 90% of the quoted battery capacity is usable.

We think that the likes of Exide, Bosch, Yuasa, etc only count 'real', useful cycles.
Some battery manufacturers count even the ones were you and I might think the battery has past it.

So in order to verify the NCC verified scheme, you would need to see the test the results for each battery, which they don't/won't supply.

The fact they won't even publish who the company is doing the tests, leads me to believe the secrecy is there for a reason!!

If the tests are genuinely being done, then why not publish who is doing them and the results of each test?

We would suggest that while Yuasa, Exide, etc count a cycle that is pretty near full efficiencey, "PowerMan Batteries" might count even those that are not.

A Banner Energy Bull will struggle in the real World to give half it's quoted Cycle rate over a four year period, making a mockery of the NCC tests. So to me, the NCC Verified scheme has a little way to go yet


We think the NCC would have given us more value if they had pushed manufacturers to give each battery an easy to read manufacture and 'sell by' date.
By then, they don't work for us do they?


So, as we said above, if you do know of a truly independent test that rates Banner above all others, to backup what you claim is a 'Solid' reputation then please tell us where we can see it?

See our page on 'How does a battery Work' : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-battery-work.php

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[PhilandMena]

Whatever ! I can no longer be arsed to read and respond to your posts on this matter.

 

[hilldweller]

It's worth buying the extension cable, then you can place your S.P. either side of the Motorhome..

This is a very subtle way of saying "it's a pain in the bum really and one day I'll get round to doing the job properly".

That's if you have room on your roof.

But I will concede that if you are prepared to tilt correctly and move it every couple of hours your will get more electricity.

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[PhilandMena]

This is a very subtle way of saying "it's a pain in the bum really and one day I'll get round to doing the job properly".

That's if you have room on your roof.

But I will concede that if you are prepared to tilt correctly and move it every couple of hours your will get more electricity.

You have more or less nailed it! As I stated in a previous post my preference would have been to put it on the roof and then I could forget about it ! Problem is that Sargent have not allowed for more than 10 Amps coming into their controller..........Bummer !

 

[laurieash]

You have more or less nailed it! As I stated in a previous post my preference would have been to put it on the roof and then I could forget about it ! Problem is that Sargent have not allowed for more than 10 Amps coming into their controller..........Bummer !

It saves turning the mh around with a fix panel especially when you have a dome that always wants to put the panel in shade.

 

[laurieash]

Had a play with the motorhome to day checked the batteries.
One was 13.2 and the other was 12.9?
Using the multi meter with the towel over the solar panel and black button out.
Uncover the solar and charging.
So cover solar again no charge put Sargent charger on no difference so may have to take charger out for testing.
Now back to the batteries, the one that had 13.2 needed half a LTR of deionised water the other needed 2 ltrs.
So I think the lazy bugger that did the hab check in July didn't check the levels.
So I think two new batteries and keep the best for a spare.
what do you guys think. And thanks again for all your replies.
Laurie

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