Your thoughts on a 2001 Clou 800E

[John Russell]

As you probably know we've been looking for an Iveco Flair, early 2000s to keep it affordable.

Purely by chance (!) I spotted a 2001 Clou on Man L2000 chassis with a suitable layout The price is similar to that of a 2006 Flair.

Other plusses for us are that it is equipped with larger water, waste and lpg tanks which will allow more independence from facilities.

The chassis is a Man L2000 on leaf springs. Pick-up trucks with leaf springs have an agricultural ride - maybe not the end of the world if it gets you there. I presume it's rwd but my Google-fu wasn't up to finding an answer. And the engine is 6L 220hp which should be an improvement.

I'm tempted...

Any thoughts on the Man versus Iveco Daily? Running costs? Driving?

Or the earlier Clou versus younger Flair?

 

[funflair]

Hi John

The Niesmann bit should be nice, there were different Clou models some being a Flair inside and other much more bespoke with real wood veneer etc etc.

The MAN will be a bit agricultural I believe and the clutch and gears can be a bit heavy, or it it auto? at 6 litre it will be the six cylinder so you might be compromising payload a bit.

We do know somebody who bought one and he replaced the engine with something more modern and then replaced the rear diff as it was not the right ratio and then he changed the gearbox for an Auto, you need good contacts in the trade for that sort of work otherwise it would bankrupt most of us, he says the van is great now

jongood might have some comment on this chassis option, but my thought is that the Daily is going be easier to live with and the drive will be quieter and more comfortable, the MAN motor will pull like a train of course but there is nothing wrong with the 3 litre lump.

Martin

 

[CazPaul]

You need a test drive for definite, but a wonderful quality van no doubt, usual checks for that era, all the windows are double glazed glass(Not just the cab side windows as the Flair is) so require checking for misting up. Leaks into lockers and especially garage.

Check floor too, inside lift carpet or floor covering up on the edges inside hab door. We saw one in Germany and the owner was livid as it required total replacement at a cost of 20000 euros from polch. The owner showed me a couple of inches above the skirt line there is a join running all the way down either side, this requires periodic checking ensuring there is a good seal. Water had got in his and there was mushrooms growing inside on the floor under the covering.

 

[jongood]

Hi John

The Niesmann bit should be nice, there were different Clou models some being a Flair inside and other much more bespoke with real wood veneer etc etc.

The MAN will be a bit agricultural I believe and the clutch and gears can be a bit heavy, or it it auto? at 6 litre it will be the six cylinder so you might be compromising payload a bit.

We do know somebody who bought one and he replaced the engine with something more modern and then replaced the rear diff as it was not the right ratio and then he changed the gearbox for an Auto, you need good contacts in the trade for that sort of work otherwise it would bankrupt most of us, he says the van is great now

jongood might have some comment on this chassis option, but my thought is that the Daily is going be easier to live with and the drive will be quieter and more comfortable, the MAN motor will pull like a train of course but there is nothing wrong with the 3 litre lump.

Martin

This is fundamentally different animal to a Fiat based flair, better build quality on a much heavier truck chassis, much more robust but bigger bills when it does go wrong. I have looked at a lot of Clous over the years and have yet to see one with a drop down bed or even longtitudional beds, although some have a walk around at the side due to the 2.5m width of them. The other biggy is the engine hump, its quite a climb into the drivers seat on earlier versions. Most Clou's have double glazed glass windows all round which are known to fail and can get expensive.

MPG John Russell will be the least of your worries although you could probably expect 15 ish

The Clou you are thinking of Martin had a different engine, its a 4.6 litre 4 cylinder which i believ the new owner has kept the block but added a new head and transmission etc.

As you know Martin I drove a newer version of both MAN engines earlier this year and neither of them were agricultural and had impressive amounts of torque, roughly twice the Iveco daily.
In fact if I would say that our next MH is most likely to be on an MAN Chassis hopefully the 6 cylinder but for the right layout I would consider the later 4 cylinder at 205hp minimum.

I also owned a couple of MAN's with an earlier version of the 6.5 litre 6 in one of my earlier businesses and they were a nice motor, the weakness on the G90 were the gear linkages and the drum brakes ( but with paid drivers using them).

I also drove a Clou 3 with the heavier 823 Atego chassis which again was a lovely motor but a bit too much work to sort out.

hth

Jon

 

[funflair]

This is fundamentally different animal to a Fiat based flair, better build quality on a much heavier truck chassis, much more robust but bigger bills when it does go wrong. I have looked at a lot of Clous over the years and have yet to see one with a drop down bed or even longtitudional beds, although some have a walk around at the side due to the 2.5m width of them. The other biggy is the engine hump, its quite a climb into the drivers seat on earlier versions. Most Clou's have double glazed glass windows all round which are known to fail and can get expensive.

MPG John Russell will be the least of your worries although you could probably expect 15 ish

The Clou you are thinking of Martin had a different engine, its a 4.6 litre 4 cylinder which i believ the new owner has kept the block but added a new head and transmission etc.

As you know Martin I drove a newer version of both MAN engines earlier this year and neither of them were agricultural and had impressive amounts of torque, roughly twice the Iveco daily.
In fact if I would say that our next MH is most likely to be on an MAN Chassis hopefully the 6 cylinder but for the right layout I would consider the later 4 cylinder at 205hp minimum.

I also owned a couple of MAN's with an earlier version of the 6.5 litre 6 in one of my earlier businesses and they were a nice motor, the weakness on the G90 were the gear linkages and the drum brakes ( but with paid drivers using them).

I also drove a Clou 3 with the heavier 823 Atego chassis which again was a lovely motor but a bit too much work to sort out.

hth

Jon

When you said Fiat based Flair did you mean Fiat/IVECO, yes sorry I realise the one I was talking about was the 4 cylinder, I thought he swapped the full motor but could be wrong, I know he didn't pay a great deal for it as the dealer was struggling to sell it.

You still looking Jon.

Martin

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[Howard H]

We do know somebody who bought one and he replaced the engine with something more modern and then replaced the rear diff as it was not the right ratio and then he changed the gearbox for an Auto,

Would that be Andy’s ? Martin

 

[funflair]

Would that be Andy’s ? Martin

I do know a guy called Andy with a Clou

Martin

 

[jongood]

When you said Fiat based Flair did you mean Fiat/IVECO, yes sorry I realise the one I was talking about was the 4 cylinder, I thought he swapped the full motor but could be wrong, I know he didn't pay a great deal for it as the dealer was struggling to sell it.

You still looking Jon.

Martin

Hey Martin I was meaning fiat, because I think what we're talking about here is a comparison between a flair tag on a 2.8 jtd fiat and a Clou on a 6 cylinder MAn chassis , been looking again Martin - irrepressible is it a symptom or a cause?
Jon

 

[jongood]

Btw if I ever see a clou3 with a dropdown bed I'm buying it regardless

 

[funflair]

Hey Martin I was meaning fiat, because I think what we're talking about here is a comparison between a flair tag on a 2.8 jtd fiat and a Clou on a 6 cylinder MAn chassis , been looking again Martin - irrepressible is it a symptom or a cause?
Jon

In his original post John said IVECO though?

Martin

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[John Russell]

Interesting thanks. funflair Yup, comparison is with the Iveco Daily Flair.

This Clou has a transverse double in the rear with a narrow access along the end; there's a pullout double bed in the lounge, no dropdown I'm afraid jongood

The chassis is a Man 8224 according to N&B's pricelist. The engine is the 6-cylinder 6.8L 220bhp with a 6-speed manual transmission. Air-powered disk brakes front and rear, and leaf springs.

CazPaul Thanks for the tip about the leaky join

funflair 'the Daily is going be easier to live with and the drive will be quieter and more comfortable' is pretty decisive.

jongood Clou-sized bills from the chassis are off-putting. Any thoughts on the suspension? Driving comfort?

It's on https://polskicaravaning.pl/ogloszenia/man-l2000-kamper-niesmann-bischoff-clou-liner-830-,2095 and Broken Link Removed

 

[Richard Birkett]

My Carthago is on a MAN chassis which accommodates the wider 2.55m body. It’s the supercharged 4.6l 6 speed manual and we average 18 mpg. The leaf springs do give a soft ride BUT it drives beautifully and is an absolute pleasure to drive either on motorways or up and down mountains.
Richard

 

[jongood]

In his original post John said IVECO though?

Martin

Sorry Martin I read the original on the phone and missed that bit and thought we were still on the Fiat based one.

John Russell I don't remember ever driving a daily based motorhome of that era although I have driven a newer 8 speed auto version but with full air .

Regarding the driving of the Clou, they are truck based and will be noisier but not a bad drive IMO although a big jump if you re not used to trucks.

I like the look of the polish one but it has been for sale for quite some time and when I previously enquired (july??) it was not available to look at because work was being carried out, even though i didnt mention a time frame.

 

[jongood]

My Carthago is on a MAN chassis which accommodates the wider 2.55m body. It’s the supercharged 4.6l 6 speed manual and we average 18 mpg. The leaf springs do give a soft ride BUT it drives beautifully and is an absolute pleasure to drive either on motorways or up and down mountains.
Richard

Which output do you have? 205hp or 220hp?

 

[Richard Birkett]

Which output do you have? 205hp or 220hp?

It’s the 220. On motorways in cruise control in 6th it’s effortless at 96 kph never having to change up or down and averages 6.6 km per litre. On A roads it glides along at 80 kph averaging 7.2 km per litre and the stalk activated engine braking was a revelation, having never had it before.
Richard

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[tacr2man]

MAN and Iveco apples and pears . JMHO

 

[John Russell]

Richard Birkett Interesting, maybe the Clou's a possibility then, a soft ride is fine with me and it sounds better than the similarly-aged Flair I drove a while ago. What age is yours? How have the bills been - fuel aside?

jongood Are you still interested in it? Just €12k+ will get you a drop-down bed...

The external appearance is unlike the other pictures I've seen of Clous from that era. The price has gone up a couple of times since they first advertised it in February, which is an unusual approach if it isn't selling.

It's plated at 7490kg Gross Vehicle Weight, but F2 on the German Zulassungsbescheinigung (V5) shows 8,400kg zulässige Gesamtmasse (Maximum Authorised Mass), and F1 shows 9,400kg technically permissable mass.

Is it correct that the VIN plate hasn't been changed to reflect the up-plating? I have a C1 licence so the VIN plate rating is fine, but not the German Zulassungsbescheinigung.

 

[canopus]

It looks a beaut.

 

[CazPaul]

Richard Birkett Interesting, maybe the Clou's a possibility then, a soft ride is fine with me and it sounds better than the similarly-aged Flair I drove a while ago. What age is yours? How have the bills been - fuel aside?

jongood Are you still interested in it? Just €12k+ will get you a drop-down bed...

The external appearance is unlike the other pictures I've seen of Clous from that era. The price has gone up a couple of times since they first advertised it in February, which is an unusual approach if it isn't selling.

It's plated at 7490kg Gross Vehicle Weight, but F2 on the German Zulassungsbescheinigung (V5) shows 8,400kg zulässige Gesamtmasse (Maximum Authorised Mass), and F1 shows 9,400kg technically permissable mass.

Is it correct that the VIN plate hasn't been changed to reflect the up-plating? I have a C1 licence so the VIN plate rating is fine, but not the German Zulassungsbescheinigung.

Lol what sort of business plan is that, can you imagine the board meet''Hey, this one isn't selling, let's put the price up''

 

[canopus]

They are probably observing how many 'hits' their website has had Paul, and are assuming its had a lot. Little do they know it's the same guy who has looked at it umpteen times.

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[CazPaul]

Around 48 grand so if you can get it for 45 ish with an offer and if in excellent condition is a solid buy.

 

[jongood]

Richard Birkett Interesting, maybe the Clou's a possibility then, a soft ride is fine with me and it sounds better than the similarly-aged Flair I drove a while ago. What age is yours? How have the bills been - fuel aside?

jongood Are you still interested in it? Just €12k+ will get you a drop-down bed...

The external appearance is unlike the other pictures I've seen of Clous from that era. The price has gone up a couple of times since they first advertised it in February, which is an unusual approach if it isn't selling.

It's plated at 7490kg Gross Vehicle Weight, but F2 on the German Zulassungsbescheinigung (V5) shows 8,400kg zulässige Gesamtmasse (Maximum Authorised Mass), and F1 shows 9,400kg technically permissable mass.

Is it correct that the VIN plate hasn't been changed to reflect the up-plating? I have a C1 licence so the VIN plate rating is fine, but not the German Zulassungsbescheinigung.

I suspect many of the 6 cylinder Clous are tight on payload.

I've not see a front quite like that one, maybe inbetween models?

 

[CazPaul]

Check that gold paint is in good condition, looked at a gold Flair a couple of years ago and there were a few areas where it was peeling off and in bad condition.
But if it is in good nick then a good buy I think.

 

[John Russell]

jongood I couldn't find any similar Clou. Usually if it's a Man chassis, there's a big Man badge on the front, and the front looks quite different.

N&B's brochure gives an empty weight of 6,750kg vs 7,490kg MAM, so 740kg payload if weights are correct, which should be just enough for the two of us. That may be why it appears to have been up-plated to 8,400kg MAM.

I've asked the seller to put it on a weighbridge to check. There's a German Zulassungsbescheinigung (V5), so I don't know whether it's been registered in Poland or not, but the vendor has some sort of truck sales business so he should be able to sort it out, and down-plating which I assume is needed before I could drive it on my C1 licence.

CazPaul I think that if this is all OK, and the vehicle is in good shape then it's a decent purchase at around £45k-ish.

I'm also chatting to a German private vendor of a 2006 8000iL Flair, looks like it's in good shape, low mileage with rear air, jacks, etc which is slightly more expensive but would also be quite a good option. That's been on and off the market at closer to £50k.

 

[CazPaul]

jongood I couldn't find any similar Clou. Usually if it's a Man chassis, there's a big Man badge on the front, and the front looks quite different.

N&B's brochure gives an empty weight of 6,750kg vs 7,490kg MAM, so 740kg payload if weights are correct, which should be just enough for the two of us. That may be why it appears to have been up-plated to 8,400kg MAM.

I've asked the seller to put it on a weighbridge to check. There's a German Zulassungsbescheinigung (V5), so I don't know whether it's been registered in Poland or not, but the vendor has some sort of truck sales business so he should be able to sort it out, and down-plating which I assume is needed before I could drive it on my C1 licence.

CazPaul I think that if this is all OK, and the vehicle is in good shape then it's a decent purchase at around £45k-ish.

I'm also chatting to a German private vendor of a 2006 8000iL Flair, looks like it's in good shape, low mileage with rear air, jacks, etc which is slightly more expensive but would also be quite a good option. That's been on and off the market at closer to £50k.

I think the 2006 8000 Flair is too dear at 50k ish though, we could have bought one for 42 about 3 years ago in the uk, but it had the 2.8 and wanted the 3 litre.

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[John Russell]

CazPaul It's in Germany, prices are slightly higher than the UK, and has the three-litre engine. That's the asking price but for this age and mileage it's at the lower end of private sellers' asking prices. If the vendor comes down slightly it'll be a little more than the Clou.

That's the comparison anyway, slightly more for a well-equipped more recent Flair than the Clou.

 

[funflair]

I think the 2006 8000 Flair is too dear at 50k ish though, we could have bought one for 42 about 3 years ago in the uk, but it had the 2.8 and wanted the 3 litre.

You are right Jon you will have to pay more for the 3 litre and some have more spec than others of course, looking at prices in Germany which is the closest comparison really £50k sound about right as asking price for top spec.

Martin

 

[jongood]

jongood I couldn't find any similar Clou. Usually if it's a Man chassis, there's a big Man badge on the front, and the front looks quite different.

N&B's brochure gives an empty weight of 6,750kg vs 7,490kg MAM, so 740kg payload if weights are correct, which should be just enough for the two of us. That may be why it appears to have been up-plated to 8,400kg MAM.

I've asked the seller to put it on a weighbridge to check. There's a German Zulassungsbescheinigung (V5), so I don't know whether it's been registered in Poland or not, but the vendor has some sort of truck sales business so he should be able to sort it out, and down-plating which I assume is needed before I could drive it on my C1 licence.

Ive looked at a lot of Clou's over the years, I dont think any of them left the factory with significant badging other than Niesmann Bischof, They were available on MAN, MB and Iveco(Eurocargo), the only way to tell if the owner hasn't added badging is to look at the Dashboard etc.

I'm not sure whether you ve actually seen one yet but there are several similar ones on Mobile.de right now, including a MAN based 800E at Niesmann carvanning at Polch which might be a good place to start.

The brochure unladen weight is pretty hard to assess as most were built to order. When weighing one you have to remember that they have large tanks and you will need to know how much fuel/ water/ gas etc is in them to make any sort of meaningful assessment. As the 6 cylinder MAN CHassis is heavy it is likely to be tight with a C1 Licence.

 

[CazPaul]

Ive looked at a lot of Clou's over the years, I dont think any of them left the factory with significant badging other than Niesmann Bischof, They were available on MAN, MB and Iveco(Eurocargo), the only way to tell if the owner hasn't added badging is to look at the Dashboard etc.

I'm not sure whether you ve actually seen one yet but there are several similar ones on Mobile.de right now, including a MAN based 800E at Niesmann carvanning at Polch which might be a good place to start.

The brochure unladen weight is pretty hard to assess as most were built to order. When weighing one you have to remember that they have large tanks and you will need to know how much fuel/ water/ gas etc is in them to make any sort of meaningful assessment. As the 6 cylinder MAN CHassis is heavy it is likely to be tight with a C1 Licence.

The niesmann one is a 900 model Jon, 9.4 tonne and 9.1 metres, much bigger beast.

 

[jongood]

The niesmann one is a 900 model Jon, 9.4 tonne and 9.1 metres, much bigger beast.

They did have an 800e as well but seems to have gone now Paul. No idea whether its justified but I'm just a little suspicious about the one in Poland.

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