wheelchair access in to commercial shops (1 Viewer)

[slobadoberbob]

at least you thought you should offer a service

I am a shop owner (no wheelchair ramp, but assistance available) and my wife is now a wheelchair user so I can see things from both sides.
We bought the MH last year so that we could travel without thinking of disabled toilets for one.

Initially she was against the idea but now she loves it. We tend to use sites, especially those with a pub nearby. Most pubs are not wheelchair friendly but the staff and customers are - helping us in and out, moving tables, and themselves sometimes.

Last month we took the MH to Majorca, they put us and the MH on the wrong deck (no lift) - crew member took my wife, in the wheelchair, up two escalators. Scary enough but even scarier coming down at the other end !!

Overall we take the view 'live and let live' - life's too short

At least you thought you should offer a service or assist.. that is going part way.. but to put the shutters up in effect to wheelchair users is just not acceptable.

I go on cruises a lot and crew have always managed to get me on and off a ship in port or to a tender.. where there is a will there is a way.. Disabled people do not want more of the cake.. but would like some of it.. but then some people do not think that is fair.

Bob

 

[TheBig1]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, due to my own situation. Not only do wheelchair users face discrimination from poorly run businesses every day, those on crutches like me struggle too

take for instance the recent run in I had with a regional hospital. After seeing the consultant locally at a modern easy access building I was sent to see the surgeon 30 miles away. Appointment comes through with all the details including a statement that there is no parking available near the building booked so ring for advice if disabled.
their advice was park at shopping centre and take the bus in or park in main hospital carpark and walk on crutches 1/2 mile off site down a hill. clinic is in an old victorian house, upstairs with no alternative access. Of course I had to cancel and so have now been taken off the list for surgery. How can an NHS hospital and trust get away with treating disabled patients so badly?

 

[jhorsf]

I have also noticed if someone is in a chair and with someone who is not (wife husband etc.), people talk to the one who is not in a chair as though the one in the chair is not there or some sort of idiot

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[TheBig1]

I have also noticed if someone is in a chair and with someone who is not (wife husband etc.), people talk to the one who is not in a chair as though the one in the chair is not there or some sort of idiot

doe's he take sugar in his coffee now that one gets a response for me as to where they can shove their coffee

 

[jhorsf]

I have always thought it should be part of the school studies for kids to experience for a short time Blindness by being blindfolded also being in a wheelchair to see what it is like trying to say go into a town shopping, the way to change peoples views and opinions on disabilities is through the kids, they need life skills

 

[slobadoberbob]

oh yes .. get that all the time

The worse offenders are when you go for a hospital appointment.. they speak to Sue standing behind me... she always says why do you not ask him... last time I looked he could speak and he does have a degree in law.... that normally works.

I have a mate.. he was blown up by the IRA outside Harrords with his police dog Queenie.. John is his name and in the line of duty he lost one leg and part of the hand and some facial injuries.. later he lost the other leg... but he used to suffer this all the time.. his wife as it happens was a nurse and when it happened John would rock and move about in his wheelchair .. often got a clip from his wife... well he used to say if they want to treat me like a spastic (excuse the words .. his) I'll act like one. John and I spent a lot of time together in hospital and out. Many a good story to tell. Out of sadness some joy came. But he gave a lot for us.

But it is something we in wheelchairs often find... if you want to talk to us and we hope you will how about coming down in lower . crouch .. boy does my next hurt staring to look up all the time... but please do not balance hanging on to the wheelchair..that is my space.. an extension of me. Oh yes we enjoy wheelchair jokes and disabled jokes within reason... some can go to far... knowing where the red light is.

But until we educate people they will never learn. Disabled people have disposable income to spend and have the right to go in to a shop. why should I feel embarrassed to do so.

All of you know I am in a wheelchair and 99.9% do not treat me any differently.. that is good.

Bob:thumb:

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[slobadoberbob]

yes I did send an email to him

If the building was erected after the 1995 Act came into being there is no excuse at all for any barrier to wheelchair access.

If I were you, Bob, I'd be firing off a strongly worded e-mail to the Kingfisher (B&Q and Screwfix) CEO, Ian Cheshire (ian.cheshire@kingfisher.com) describing your experience. The only way with some companies is to make them realise that it is their pockets which are suffering.

I got an email back to my complaint.

I would have cut and posted it, but it does contain a confidential clause in the communication... big brother at work.... what you expect a lot of excuses and yes there is a ramp... a bell by the goods in area and if I asked a customer going in they could tell staff.. lots of excuses.

I have invited them to put a bell at the front door.. or as they have a large foyer area they may wish to put an internal ramp in... I have asked them why they think that are permitted to breach the Equality Act and the DDA Act 1995 Part III section 19 through 21 .. also asked would they prefer an action or better to be reasonable and say put the bell to draw attention to access to the building... I wait to see the next reply I get. - Do not expect much, but it is worth giving it a poke.

Bob

J

 

[GJH]

Good on you Bob. Has the confidentiality clause any real validity though? Most of the rubbish that companies put at the end of their e-mails and worth the electrons they're made of.

Keep at them until they give in :thumb:

 

[slobadoberbob]

I think it is a load of bull myself

Good on you Bob. Has the confidentiality clause any real validity though? Most of the rubbish that companies put at the end of their e-mails and worth the electrons they're made of.

Keep at them until they give in :thumb:

I think it is a load of bull myself.. that is the trouble with emails you can attach these kinds of clauses .. taking the place of 'without prejudice' however ... I want to see if they respond with a positive view.. i.e put a bell at the front of the building.. now why do I want to go to the goods in? at the back of the building when I want to go in the front?

We will see...


Bob:Blush:

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[ShiftZZ]

Is there a danger here?

I have noticed that we are all being compartmentalised, let me give you an example.
In a number of car parks you will see disabled spaces, child friendly spaces etc, the issue with these rights and benefits can eventually marginalise those who are not in a particular group.
Before you jump down my throat as being anti this and anti that, I am not, it’s just that there has to be a balance and not what may appear as “one way traffic”, yes I agree about equality, but, some are abusing certain laws/situation to their own advantage. Women only short lists etc

Let me give you a specific example, a man worked for me in Chelmsford, he was Asian and he was ever so ambitious, he would apply for every job that came along, even those he was not qualified to do, but never the less he would apply. Here is the crunch, if he was not successful he would play the ‘race card’, that was his downfall. The word in his department was “he only got it because of.......” Trust me that caused resentment.

So there is some danger of some form of backlash?

Now off to a bunker.

 

[slobadoberbob]

shiffty all I wanted was an RDC box

Is there a danger here?

I have noticed that we are all being compartmentalised, let me give you an example.
In a number of car parks you will see disabled spaces, child friendly spaces etc, the issue with these rights and benefits can eventually marginalise those who are not in a particular group.
Before you jump down my throat as being anti this and anti that, I am not, it’s just that there has to be a balance and not what may appear as “one way traffic”, yes I agree about equality, but, some are abusing certain laws/situation to their own advantage. Women only short lists etc

Let me give you a specific example, a man worked for me in Chelmsford, he was Asian and he was ever so ambitious, he would apply for every job that came along, even those he was not qualified to do, but never the less he would apply. Here is the crunch, if he was not successful he would play the ‘race card’, that was his downfall. The word in his department was “he only got it because of.......” Trust me that caused resentment.

So there is some danger of some form of backlash?

Now off to a bunker.

Shifty...all I wanted was to purchase an RCD... which I did from Tool Station £8 cheaper then Screwfix .. the store I cannot get into as they have a bell at the back for the disabled to use to get in the front

Bob

 

[ShiftZZ]

So Tool Shop did you a favour and you were better off, their loss your gain. The more that happens they may realise why they are losing trade.

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[jhorsf]

The point is they think that putting a bell at the back no one knows about and expecting you to go in the loading entrance really is not good enough thats why these things are now covered by law because when they were not access was not possible in most places.

Why do companies think the law does not apply to them? my best guess is because they are all getting away with it they do not want to spend any money at all to comply.I would bet if they could get the cost covered by us the public and make money out of it they would all be demanding their right to a government grant and telling you just how important this isoh:

 

[slobadoberbob]

as I said in my email to them

So Tool Shop did you a favour and you were better off, their loss your gain. The more that happens they may realise why they are losing trade.

As I said to them in my email.. my £41 was spent at tool station where I could get in from the car park direct in tot he store.. flat and level .. 50 years from Screwfix... as you say cheaper as well.

Bob

 

[browne4573]

Bob

For me - being "reasonable" is having a expectation to access a restaurant without going through the kitchen or being able to visit a local dentist or DIY store.

In this day and age such things are not beyond the wit of man to sort out.

Mike

Would you still think it reasonable to spend £1000 on alterations if historically only 1 disabled person per year had visited your business? Small and large businesses have to weigh up what is a reasonable amount as a balance. After all if they have to make a loss to serve either any customer disabled or otherwise then they wouldn't be continue. Imagine how we would laugh and ridicule a business owner if they bought widgets for £10 and sold for £5.
Besides who's to say the disabled person will need a ramp and not be a blind customer tripping over a ramp?

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[GJH]

Would you still think it reasonable to spend £1000 on alterations if historically only 1 disabled person per year had visited your business? Small and large businesses have to weigh up what is a reasonable amount as a balance. After all if they have to make a loss to serve either any customer disabled or otherwise then they wouldn't be continue. Imagine how we would laugh and ridicule a business owner if they bought widgets for £10 and sold for £5.
Besides who's to say the disabled person will need a ramp and not be a blind customer tripping over a ramp?

This is exactly why the "reasonableness" test is in place and why each case has to be treated on its merits isn't it? Reading Bob's posts again (without knowing the age or exact circumstances of the building), the error which Screwfix have made is to not make it clear at the front entrance how access may be gained by wheelchair users. Thus, Bob rightly has grounds for complaint.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Over the past 20 years or so much effort has gone into accessibility for the disabled and those using wheelchairs. I remember when dropped kerbs were installed outside my shop (way before mobility scooter) and wondered at the time why ramps had been installed for bicycles (and cars) to mount the pavement - we were a mile from town and wheelchairs still do not use them, just the occassional scooter and bikes.

My wife now needs to use a wheelchair all the time, me pushing, so I appreciate any help in getting about, including getting through doors in particular but we don't expect every shop to have a ramp or automatic doors - staff nearly always rush to help with steps and doors.

I think we are, in the main, treated fairly but risk causing resentment from the able-bodied if it seems that we are expecting everything to revolve around our needs.

Screwfix have only had showrooms for about 5 years so they have no excuse for not providing access - could it be that they assumed (wrongly) that the disabled wouldn't be doing any DIY or repairs? !!!

 

[joner8888]

Luckily i don`t need a wheelchair, but on a different note-- i bought a s/hand one from ebay, chopped it and fabricated a ladder to it.
We now use this most days for working on /spraying high vans ect.

Would it be great Bob to save you so much hassle, if someone modified a wheelchair to climb stairs -- i notice there are sack trucks made to do the same job ! :thumb:
Bob -- Get a Frigging big hooter fitted on your wheels, sit outside the shops and HOOOOOOT !

That will get them moving !

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[GJH]

Over the past 20 years or so much effort has gone into accessibility for the disabled and those using wheelchairs. I remember when dropped kerbs were installed outside my shop (way before mobility scooter) and wondered at the time why ramps had been installed for bicycles (and cars) to mount the pavement - we were a mile from town and wheelchairs still do not use them, just the occassional scooter and bikes.

My wife now needs to use a wheelchair all the time, me pushing, so I appreciate any help in getting about, including getting through doors in particular but we don't expect every shop to have a ramp or automatic doors - staff nearly always rush to help with steps and doors.

I think we are, in the main, treated fairly but risk causing resentment from the able-bodied if it seems that we are expecting everything to revolve around our needs.

Screwfix have only had showrooms for about 5 years so they have no excuse for not providing access - could it be that they assumed (wrongly) that the disabled wouldn't be doing any DIY or repairs? !!!

Very constructive on the whole but I'm not sure on the point regarding Screwfix. The company may have only had showrooms for about 5 years but in many cases haven't they simply used existing buildings erected before 1995? If that is the case then the "reasonableness" test applies doesn't it?

 

[slobadoberbob]

in this case the building is not mega old

Very constructive on the whole but I'm not sure on the point regarding Screwfix. The company may have only had showrooms for about 5 years but in many cases haven't they simply used existing buildings erected before 1995? If that is the case then the "reasonableness" test applies doesn't it?

In this case the building is not mega old.. it is on an industrial estate, much seen in the UK where you get a retail entrance and a warehouse next to it.. but in this case the ware house is at the rear and not accessible from the same roadway. The estate is private and there is just a car park in front of the entrance... the entrance has a step up to the doorway.. behind that there are these counters to enter the item numbers on order forms... then it turns right (informed by Sue)... and there is a long area of displays and the counter is at the end side ways across the building with an door to the warehouse at the back.

So plenty of room to drop the floor from the step to the display floor .. it would mean a new set of doors to take in to account the ramp... but it was not the ramp I was worried about.. I just think it is unreasonable to have no bell to ask for attention.. or the bell is at the goods entrance in the road behind... there are 8 of these units and this is the only one that does not have a ramp. or a lowered level to the entrance. I think the view that they do to expect wheelchair users to want to buy DIY items applies.

But it is the word reasonableness that applies.. I do not think expecting a bell at very little cost to a multi million / billion organisation like Kingfisher is to much to expect.... I can see the arguments for a small business... but we are not talking about that here.. it is a very large concern.

Bob

 

[slobadoberbob]

For your information

Thank you for your response.

Just received this email re the issues at the Screwfix store.... As you can see a bell is now to be fitted to the front...

So a few emails got the end result.. Screwfix to face up to there legal responsibilities..



I apologise if any offence was taken to my previous reply as this certainly was not my intention and Screwfix fully appreciates your further comments and suggestions regarding the access at the Tunbridge Wells Trade Counter. I would like to reassure you that Screwfix does take its responsibilities in relation the Equality Act and the Disabled Discrimination Act very seriously. Having discussed the additional concerns you have raised with both our Head of Trade Counter Operations and our Legal Department, I have been advised that after further review, a bell will be fitted at the front of the Tunbridge Wells Trade Counter by the end of this week so that any customers with impaired mobility wishing to access the Trade Counter premises can notify the staff of their presence to enable the portable ramp to be put in place.

As previously stated the Tunbridge Wells Trade Counter has a portable ramp which is held within the store premises for use when required, all of our Trade Counters will have the portable ramps available if access is restricted or difficult.

Once again, please be assured that your feedback is valued and we do appreciate the time you have taken to raise your concerns. In light of this and also to re-affirm our customer care principles, I have issued a £50 credit to your customer details to use on a future order with us. Unfortunately at present the credit cannot be redeemed through our website, however, it can be redeemed either on an order placed by telephone on 0500 414141 or in one of our Trade Counters. To redeem the credit, please provide your customer number and also the credit ID:XXXXXX please note that the credit will expire on 9 May 2013.

Thank you again for your assistance in this matter, if you do have any concerns in relation to the above or if I can be of further help, please do not hesitate to contact me again.




Bob

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[GJH]

Thanks both for the clarification re the building and the copy of the response, Bob. Obviously, in this case, Screwfix got it wrong. That you have made them admit it and take appropriate action is all good.

 

[jhorsf]

Looks like Bob screwed screwfix out of 50£ just shows they knew they were in the wrong is that hush money Bob?

 

[TheBig1]

I realise that many will consider this trivial, but really it is significant because Bob, the average man on the street, has caused a change in policy at a national company. In future, the people that count at kingfisher now know that reasonable adjustments should be made and dont have to cost a fortune.

all things considered, this is a good result for all concerned....customers and the business

Thankyou Bob:thumb:

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[GJH]

Looks like Bob screwed screwfix out of 50£ just shows they knew they were in the wrong is that hush money Bob?

Compensation for inconvenience/distress etc etc, rather than hush money.

Everybody makes mistakes and things go wrong and have to be fixed under warranty and that is all fair enough. So long as both buyer and seller act reasonably (that word again) and with respect for each other such matters can normally be sorted out simply and amicably.

There are occasions, though, when companies abuse their customers either deliberately or negligently by creating problems which should never happen. On such occasions they need to be taken to task as they will only learn if people do so - and, sometimes, it takes a hit to their profits for them to take notice.

The Link Removed is very useful to identify people at the top who have the power to act, rather than dealing with customer services staff who (at no fault of their own) have little discretion to move away from the company policy line.

 

[aba]

so it will be off to screwfix next week to see if the bell has been fitted then bob:thumb:

be just like them to put it too high for you to reachoh:

 

[gypsylady]

Priorities Bob....

locally to us is a sub post office and a bookies...next to each other.

the bookies has a purpose built disabled access ramp....

the post office has five steps and a door bell oh:

but ring the bell and someone will come out to you, even if they cant get you inside.

To comply with the act, businesses are obliged to 'make themselves accessible' to disabled customers.

The existence of a doorbell, that a member of staff can answer and deal with customer queries, is sufficient to show compliance.

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[slobadoberbob]

yes I will check to see if they have done as promised

so it will be off to screwfix next week to see if the bell has been fitted then bob:thumb:

be just like them to put it too high for you to reachoh:

Yes, I will be checking to see if they do as they say they will.

Bob

 

[slobadoberbob]

yes and no

To comply with the act, businesses are obliged to 'make themselves accessible' to disabled customers.

The existence of a doorbell, that a member of staff can answer and deal with customer queries, is sufficient to show compliance.

While you have the spirit right a bell in it's self is not enough. The courts state reasonable and a bell in certain circumstances may not be reasonable.

I do not want to bore the forum with the DDA 1995 as amended and part III and sections 19 through 21.. which are long. But I know for a fact there is no mention of a bell. The act requires reasonable [access] ... bring a dress say to a lady in a wheelchair to try on in the street would not be classed as reasonable. The act as well as the Equality act goes much further. I know, very well what the courts need as it is a subject I have been before the courts with as a lawyer and won and obtained damages. But another story for another day.

But closing the debate.. REASONABLE is the word I would hope to see being used by both the disabled person and the business.

Bob

 

[tofo]

The point is they think that putting a bell at the back no one knows about and expecting you to go in the loading entrance really is not good enough thats why these things are now covered by law because when they were not access was not possible in most places.


is that not the time to take the rev shopping and park just a little awkward
To make a point :thumb:

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