Warranty, what warranty? (1 Viewer)

[Turrells]

As so many of you were very helpful with my post about M/H insurance, I am asking for help and comments again please. Having read Jim's article "Changes in Consumer Law and Motorhome Lemons" I should like to know whether our situation is covered by this.

Bought our S/H Autocruise on 5 June through Motorhome Depot, who also sold our previous M/H. It was just what we had been looking for layout-wise. 52 plate with 50k on the clock.

Whilst on a short break on 28 June, we called in to a car dealership to take a look. On leaving up a slight slope onto the main road, the vehicle refused to move forward. After several attempts, my husband spoke to the on-site mechanics, who immediately diagnosed that the clutch was burning out. We could smell it!

We managed to limp home and call our Warranty company, MB&G, who confirmed that the clutch was covered. Some time later they suggested that the problem may be caused by wear and tear, in which case it was not covered. They insisted that the repairing garage send pics of the clutch before going ahead with the work.

Yesterday, the M/H was booked in at a garage in Brighton. As we pulled away from home to go there, the gear stick came away in my husband's hand. He managed to insert the short rod, and by keeping pressure on the gear stick, managed to drive the 15 miles to the garage, whilst keeping fingers crossed that the clutch would hold out! A very hairy journey!

Today we heard that MB&G will not cover the clutch repair, plus we have to pay for the gear stick replacement, well over £1,000. We have kept our broker informed all along, but apart from saying that should we be turned down by MB&G that Motorhome Depot's Head Office may try to apply pressure, he doesn't seem very concerned.

Are we covered by the above mentioned Consumer Rights Act 2015?

 

[funflair]

I was surprised when you said that the clutch was covered, but I know nothing about the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Martin

 

[Bognor Saint]

I was surprised when you said that the clutch was covered, but I know nothing about the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Martin

That's what I thought too.

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[Lenny HB]

As you dealt through a broker you need to establish who your contract of sale was with, if with Motorhome dept you may have a case, if it's with the previous owner it's a private sale so no comeback unless you can prove a fault was deliberately hidden from you.
Even on brand new vehicles warranties rarely ever pay out for clutches unless you can prove a manufacturing defect. Who can afford the best laywer wins - not going to be you.

 

[Turrells]

The clutch is definitely mentioned in our warranty booklet. Update - just had a call from the garage, the total bill is now £1979!

 

[Lenny HB]

Ouch!

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[Xabia]

I think your problem here is that whilst the cover suggests that your clutch is covered there is an all embracing exclusion of 'wear and tear'. In other words, if it could be proved that the clutch mechanism failed, due for example to a manufacturing fault, you would be covered but clearly very difficult to prove. Another example of why I for one have no faith whatever in these policies, the chance of being reimbursed is pretty remote.

 

[eddie]

I think your problem here is that whilst the cover suggests that your clutch is covered there is an all embracing exclusion of 'wear and tear'. In other words, if it could be proved that the clutch mechanism failed, due for example to a manufacturing fault, you would be covered but clearly very difficult to prove. Another example of why I for one have no faith whatever in these policies, the chance of being reimbursed is pretty remote.

On the same basis we as a business wouldn't even discuss undertaking insurance based warranty work. You end up alienating the customer as you cannot do what they want you to do, you wait ages to get paid from the insurance company and you jump through hoops to get approval.

I hate insurance based warranties.

 

[Charlie]

I can't see the clutch bieng covered on a 52 plate vehicle. It is after all 15 years old now.
Clutches are wear items and can be worn out very quickly depending on how the vehicle has been driven.
These MHs are essentially fully laden vans or vehicles close to thier maximum GVW which means the clutch is working fairly hard.

Proving a manufacturing fault on a 15 year old vehicle is nigh on impossible.

Case of wear and tear and it's the clutch has done 50 odd K miles it's not to surprising.

2K sounds bloody ridiculous!!

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[stephen78]

On the same basis we as a business wouldn't even discuss undertaking insurance based warranty work. You end up alienating the customer as you cannot do what they want you to do, you wait ages to get paid from the insurance company and you jump through hoops to get approval.

I hate insurance based warranties.

On the same basis we as a business wouldn't even discuss undertaking insurance based warranty work. You end up alienating the customer as you cannot do what they want you to do, you wait ages to get paid from the insurance company and you jump through hoops to get approval.

I hate insurance based warranties.

I agree with eddievanbitz , most of these warranties aren't worth the paper their written on, in my experience in dealing with them it's an arm wrestle to get anything out of them, I no longer bother with warranty work any longer far to much hassle.

 

[Chris]

I would forget the warranty claim. As others have said the wear and tear exclusion will defeat you at every turn.

My suggestion would be pay up ( I know it hurts) and then write to the people you bought it from seeking reimbursement because they supplied faulty goods ( you would expect a motorhome to go more than 23 days before breaking down). If they refuse or ignore you bring a claim in the County Court under the small claims procedure ( applies to any claim less than £10k). Even if you lose your only expense will be the Court fee.

Do your research before issuing the claim form and take your time doing it. You have 6 years to bring the claim so don't rush into it before you are ready.

 

[Charlie]

I would forget the warranty claim. As others have said the wear and tear exclusion will defeat you at every turn.

My suggestion would be pay up ( I know it hurts) and then write to the people you bought it from seeking reimbursement because they supplied faulty goods ( you would expect a motorhome to go more than 23 days before breaking down). If they refuse or ignore you bring a claim in the County Court under the small claims procedure ( applies to any claim less than £10k). Even if you lose your only expense will be the Court fee.

Do your research before issuing the claim form and take your time doing it. You have 6 years to bring the claim so don't rush into it before you are ready.

Very good advice !

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[Minxy]

If you have service/MOT details for the vehicle then contact the garages who did the work, they may be able to tell if they knew of issues, whilst this is 'hearsay' it would at least give you something to 'talk' to the previous owner about if it appears they knew the problem existed.

You could also put the reg no into the DVLA vehicle/MOT check and see what tit comes up with.

 

[funflair]

I am not sure that I could predict 23 days in advance that our clutch was going to start slipping so why would you expect a dealer selling a van he has most likely never even driven to be capable of this. Buying used = buyer beware and if you don't feel qualified yourself take along a mechanic.

Martin

 

[Minxy]

@Turrells what's the registration no? I'll do some 'digging' for you if you let me have it, if you don't want to put it on the open forum, send me it as a 'conversation' (click on my avatar and you'll get a box pop up with a 'start a conversation' tab).

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[Turrells]

Thank you all for your responses. Actually no-one has answered my initial question, which was to do with Jim's posting of about 2 years ago I think, about the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and whether we have a case.

Chris, we like your idea of the Small Claims Court, but do you mean sue the original owner, or Motorhome Depot? Surely the previous owner will deny ever having a problem, especially as the vehicle passed the MOT in May this year. We have since discovered that the MOT doesn't include examination of the engine, gear box or clutch, which after all are the three main components of the vehicle!

Charlie, my figure of £1979 for repairs also included a new fly-wheel which the garage says we need and the new gear lever kit. Still extortionate though!

 

[funflair]

Thank you all for your responses. Actually no-one has answered my initial question, which was to do with Jim's posting of about 2 years ago I think, about the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and whether we have a case.

Chris, we like your idea of the Small Claims Court, but do you mean sue the original owner, or Motorhome Depot? Surely the previous owner will deny ever having a problem, especially as the vehicle passed the MOT in May this year. We have since discovered that the MOT doesn't include examination of the engine, gear box or clutch, which after all are the three main components of the vehicle!

Charlie, my figure of £1979 for repairs also included a new fly-wheel which the garage says we need and the new gear lever kit. Still extortionate though!

I answered it, I said I knew nothing about it who did you buy the van off Motorhome depot or the previous owner? who did you pay? this might change the situation re consumer rights act 2015.

Martin

 

[Turrells]

Martin, we actually paid the money to Motorhome Depot, who then, having taken their cut paid the previous owner.

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[Charlie]

Thank you all for your responses. Actually no-one has answered my initial question, which was to do with Jim's posting of about 2 years ago I think, about the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and whether we have a case.

Chris, we like your idea of the Small Claims Court, but do you mean sue the original owner, or Motorhome Depot? Surely the previous owner will deny ever having a problem, especially as the vehicle passed the MOT in May this year. We have since discovered that the MOT doesn't include examination of the engine, gear box or clutch, which after all are the three main components of the vehicle!

Charlie, my figure of £1979 for repairs also included a new fly-wheel which the garage says we need and the new gear lever kit. Still extortionate though!

Assuming you need a new DMF ( Dual mass flywheel) and a 3 piece clutch kit plus the guide tube and bits the parts should be around 400 to 450...... That leaves a big old margin for labour!

Did they quote you 1000 then call you to increase the price ? Seems that way from what you've written above. Doubling the price is nuts.

 

[funflair]

The Act itself looks like quite a read so this might be a bit easier, if you have had it more than 30 days you can't reject it, it looks like the pressure will be on you to prove that there was a fault at the time of purchase.

Martin

The second-hand car I bought has a problem, what are my rights?
If your second-hand car develops a problem, you’re not alone. Regardless of whether the banger you bought was from a used-car dealer or a friend of a friend, you do have rights.

Rejecting a second-hand car

If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its age and mileage, or it turns out not to be what you’d been led to expect - you may have the right to reject it and get your money back.

If you bought the car any time after 1 October 2015, you have only 30 days to reject it and get a full refund under the Consumer Rights Act.

Cars bought before 1 October 2015 would have come under the Sale of Goods Act, which has now been replaced by the Consumer Rights Act. This stated that you must have rejected the car within a reasonable time frame (probably within three to four weeks – less if it was an obvious problem).

If you reject a second-hand car bought in the UK, you must stop using it immediately.

Returning a second-hand car
If you're past the first 30 days but a problem has arisen that you think would have been there at the time of purchase, you're entitled to ask for a repair or replacement free of charge.

In most cases this will be a repair, as whoever sold the car to you will usually be able to prove that the cost of replacing it would be disproportionate.

During the first six months after purchase, it's the responsibility of the seller to prove the fault wasn't there, not for you to prove that it was.

But after the first six months, the onus will be on you to prove that the fault was present from the day you bought the car.

If the attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful, you're entitled to a refund.

But the car dealer can make a deduction from the refund after the first 30 days for 'fair use'.

 

[Charlie]

Martin, we actually paid the money to Motorhome Depot, who then, having taken their cut paid the previous owner.

The problem you have is MHD are acting as an agent. The money goes through them as a 3Rd party to the beneficiary I.E. the owner.

You have to be able to prove or get an admission from the previous owner that the vehicle had a fault. If this can be done you have a comeback. If not I fear it's caveat emptor.

As Chris says above the threat of a small claims procedure may prompt a positive response.

MHD will have it all tied up in the paperwork so I feel sure your beef will be with the owner/seller.

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[Turrells]

Charlie, the original quote, which was just for a clutch kit, was £243.17 inc. VAT. The garage then added 8 hours labour at £816 inc VAT, a total of £1059.17. They then told me we needed a new fly-wheel at £440 Plus VAT, and the gear lever assembly at £480 plus VAT. We don't have a figure for labour on the last two, but this all totals £1979.17

 

[funflair]

Martin, we actually paid the money to Motorhome Depot, who then, having taken their cut paid the previous owner.

So they were selling it as a broker, I assume you knew this when you entered into the purchase.

Rightly or wrongly when we bought our van privately at 6 years old I was under the impression that there was no comeback on the seller unless of course we could prove that he has been deliberately deceitful, when I said something about cab air conditioning he said it didn't have it, well I thought it did as it had an ECO switch on the dash and it looked like it had a condenser in front of the radiator, when we got it home the air con pump had no belt on and was seized so he was telling the truth and we purchased on that understanding and we paid for a new pump, of course we were paying half of the price when it was new so could not expect a new van.

Martin

 

[Geo]

Its not even a requirement to prove Manf defect.

The clue is in the tile of these things "Mechanical Breakdown Warranty"
Your clutch along with the vast majority of things covered will not "Break" they will simply wear out
Some of you may remember the old Cortina cam rattle caused by a known poorly designed oil spray bar
a well know manuf fault.
99% of claims were rejected under wear and tear as nothing had broken simply worn out by lack of oil
We dropped a good few of them during investigation and removal, they paid out on all the broken camshafts
without quibble
I dont hear of any opertunity to repair given to the seller, the courts dont look kindly on such behavior
My personal opinion is you dont have a leg to stand on unless the seller agrees some compo or repairs it free

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[funflair]

Charlie, the original quote, which was just for a clutch kit, was £243.17 inc. VAT. The garage then added 8 hours labour at £816 inc VAT, a total of £1059.17. They then told me we needed a new fly-wheel at £440 Plus VAT, and the gear lever assembly at £480 plus VAT. We don't have a figure for labour on the last two, but this all totals £1979.17

It's difficult without seeing but I would have thought a half decent garage could put a gear lever back in and make it stay there without buying a full assembly, might be worth trying to get that on the warranty though on the basis that it is not a normal "wear and tear" item.

Martin

 

[Chris]

Thank you all for your responses. Actually no-one has answered my initial question, which was to do with Jim's posting of about 2 years ago I think, about the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and whether we have a case.

Chris, we like your idea of the Small Claims Court, but do you mean sue the original owner, or Motorhome Depot? Surely the previous owner will deny ever having a problem, especially as the vehicle passed the MOT in May this year. We have since discovered that the MOT doesn't include examination of the engine, gear box or clutch, which after all are the three main components of the vehicle!

Charlie, my figure of £1979 for repairs also included a new fly-wheel which the garage says we need and the new gear lever kit. Still extortionate though!

I did answer your initial question actually.

The Consumer Rights Act didn't make your position any better ( or worse) than it had been under the Sale of Goods Act.

As for who to sue I am unclear on the Motorhome Depot situation. Did they sell to you or not? I doubt whether their possible suggestion they were merely agents would be received well in Court.

Let's look at that again before you issue any claim forms.

 

[Turrells]

You've all been great, thank you. We're getting rather bog-eyed with it all. We've emailed and phoned our broker man, as he asked to be kept in touch. No response so far! He may be on hols of course. Current plan is, if he doesn't respond by tomorrow midday, we will ring their Head Office and ask if he's on hols. If so, HO may say, can we help you and they will get the whole story. We'll keep you informed. Off to watch Hospital now, that should put our troubles into perspective.

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[Charlie]

Charlie, the original quote, which was just for a clutch kit, was £243.17 inc. VAT. The garage then added 8 hours labour at £816 inc VAT, a total of £1059.17. They then told me we needed a new fly-wheel at £440 Plus VAT, and the gear lever assembly at £480 plus VAT. We don't have a figure for labour on the last two, but this all totals £1979.17

This is a Peugeot Boxer ?

 

[Charlie]

The problem you have is MHD are acting as an agent. The money goes through them as a 3Rd party to the beneficiary I.E. the owner.

You have to be able to prove or get an admission from the previous owner that the vehicle had a fault. If this can be done you have a comeback. If not I fear it's caveat emptor.

As Chris says above the threat of a small claims procedure may prompt a positive response.

MHD will have it all tied up in the paperwork so I feel sure your beef will be with the owner/seller.

I think they are having you on.

LUK is the brand of stuff I would buy over all the others.

Full 3 piece clutch and DMF here.