Van starting problems suggestions please? (1 Viewer)

[Gromett]

No stock but this could be it.

The confusing bit is you say you have a 2003 2.8jtd but these are for the 2.5 and 2.8jtd?

Thanks, i saw that one, but compatibility checker says not the right one

 

[Gromett]

And me, if you are scrapping it next year, easy start won't hurt it, stop worrying about it and give her a whiff , had tractors and vans that have started with it for years, some old tractors and diggers even had a little dish thing in the cab that you put it down so you didn't have to get the bonnet up, from new.

That is the plan if I can get a quick and relatively cheap fix. It is a hassle currently and slightly restrictive.

 

[tonyidle]

I was aware of all this, the first mechanic explained it to me. The wiring was tested twice and the relay removed and tested separately. Do you know what the glow pluggy thing is properly called by any chance? I have heard thermostarter, flame starter and a couple of others but non give decent results on google. Hard to find something when you don't know what it is called

The wiring in the picture is obviously not original. The bent over negative terminal gave some cause for concern but it is making a good ground contact so was ruled out as the cause and other tests confirmed.

I just wish I could find out what it was called, a part number and a price.

According to removal instructions in the Fiat manual it is called the "thermal starter device" and is removed as a unit with the section of intake tube it's screwed into. I don't have a parts list though. It would be possible to test it - it should draw a substantial current.

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[Louis]

According to removal instructions in the Fiat manual it is called the "thermal starter device" and is removed as a unit with the section of intake tube it's screwed into. I don't have a parts list though. It would be possible to test it - it should draw a substantial current.

Why hasn't anybody measured the current draw on the starter motor. That is the only electrical bit that can flatten a good battery. Unless the starter is spinning the engine fast enough it will not start for quite a while in the summer, and then chuck out large amount of smoke when it does. The colder the engine the more battery power is drawn by the starter, that's why so many battery problems occur during winter time, good enough for warm weather buggered when cold!

 

[tonyidle]

Why hasn't anybody measured the current draw on the starter motor. That is the only electrical bit that can flatten a good battery. Unless the starter is spinning the engine fast enough it will not start for quite a while in the summer, and then chuck out large amount of smoke when it does. The colder the engine the more battery power is drawn by the starter, that's why so many battery problems occur during winter time, good enough for warm weather buggered when cold!

If the driver is familiar with his vehicle he'll know whether the starter is sluggish or not. What you suggest (assuming you mean measure the actual current draw) cannot be done easily (or at all without specialist equipment). Better to look at battery voltage to see how far down it goes during cranking.

 

[Louis]

If the driver is familiar with his vehicle he'll know whether the starter is sluggish or not. What you suggest (assuming you mean measure the actual current draw) cannot be done easily (or at all without specialist equipment). Better to look at battery voltage to see how far down it goes during cranking.

Not necessarily, yes you get used to the vehicles behaviour but, unless you had been concentrating previously on the starters habit you would not notice a depreciation in the starters performance over time. I have had quite a few experiences of this happening. I searched Vauxhall website vectra section ( very common on those) some excellent examples on cold starting problems re starters, if you would care to explore. More examples with other makes of diesels can also be found. Voltage drawn during cranking? That's what I said but it's not the voltage drawn, the starter draws current measured in amperage the value - I could not tell you without looking it up.

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[Gromett]

It's not the battery or the starter. It is a new battery, it is always fully charged. The mechanic put a big booster battery on it when it wouldn't start and the same problem.
He said it was turning over fast enough and indeed it does sound to be turning over at a good speed.

It starts with the faintest hint of easy start.

 

[Louis]

It's not the battery or the starter. It is a new battery, it is always fully charged. The mechanic put a big booster battery on it when it wouldn't start and the same problem.
He said it was turning over fast enough and indeed it does sound to be turning over at a good speed.

It starts with the faintest hint of easy start.

I understand exactly what you just said. I can tell if a starter is turning the engine over at a good speed but not guarantee the statement. What I'm implying is the fact you mentioned that a new battery was voltage down when tried to start the engine, to draw that amount of energy is down to the starter nothing else comes close. Simple fact and cheap check remove starter and check the brushes and comm, a good indicator of a worn starter is accumulated debris falling out of the cap

 

[Louis]

I understand exactly what you just said. I can tell if a starter is turning the engine over at a good speed but not guarantee the statement. What I'm implying is the fact you mentioned that a new battery was voltage down when tried to start the engine, to draw that amount of energy is down to the starter nothing else comes close. Simple fact and cheap check remove starter and check the brushes and comm, a good indicator of a worn starter is accumulated debris falling out of the cap

Sorry forgot to mention, you could wire the starter to a magnox power plant ?! if the starter is lazy It Will be Lazy mind you- won't matter if you manage to connect to Sellafield

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[jezport]

Karl.
If you want an expert to actually sort it properly. I would recommend Powerline Services in Shipley. They are Bosch master technicians and I have used them in the past.
They have the skills you need to fix it.

 

[Wildbill]

When its realy cold have you tried Easy Start, an ether based starter fuel, only problem is that engines can get addicted to it for some reason!

Peter

Thay don't get addicted to it what hapens is it whases the bors and removes carbon this then causes the engine to lose compression resulting in continued bad starting

 

[Wildbill]

Sounds to me like run back diesel running back to tank could be filter seal had it a few times Chang filter seal it wont take much to cause a problem I had it with my van I changed every pipe on my fuel system including injector blead back and finally changed the filter bingo job don starts every time
The heter flame starter only kiks in to operation in temperature under five deg
Bill

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[glastry]

have you ever tried starting directly from a can of diesel, ?apologys if this has already been mentioned,i only had time to skim through the previous posts, there would appear to be a
Fuel supply issue.as just high lighted by willdbill.

 

[tonyidle]

Not necessarily, yes you get used to the vehicles behaviour but, unless you had been concentrating previously on the starters habit you would not notice a depreciation in the starters performance over time. I have had quite a few experiences of this happening. I searched Vauxhall website vectra section ( very common on those) some excellent examples on cold starting problems re starters, if you would care to explore. More examples with other makes of diesels can also be found. Voltage drawn during cranking? That's what I said but it's not the voltage drawn, the starter draws current measured in amperage the value - I could not tell you without looking it up.

I didn't mention voltage drawn during cranking. I did suggest that measuring the current drawn might be a tad difficult to do. I enjoy being patronised.

 

[Louis]

I didn't mention voltage drawn during cranking. I did suggest that measuring the current drawn might be a tad difficult to do. I enjoy being patronised.

Ahm sorry no patronising meant, I send my sincere apologies don't want to offend, seems I need some coaching in the art of corrective postings, so sorry tonyidle

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[Gromett]

Sounds to me like run back diesel running back to tank could be filter seal had it a few times Chang filter seal it wont take much to cause a problem I had it with my van I changed every pipe on my fuel system including injector blead back and finally changed the filter bingo job don starts every time
The heter flame starter only kiks in to operation in temperature under five deg
Bill

have you ever tried starting directly from a can of diesel, ?apologys if this has already been mentioned,i only had time to skim through the previous posts, there would appear to be a
Fuel supply issue.as just high lighted by willdbill.

It's not fuel. This has been checked. Same with fuel filter and diesel leaking back to tank.

As it starts ok in hot weather it was rapidly ruled out but both things were checked for as well just incase.

 

[glastry]

• OK --how was it checked?.
• If you have tried starting directly from a supply other than the fuel tank then it may not be fuel !!
• But the indicators of a fuel supply problem are all there,and it starts easily on a "snort" of easy start.
• It's a very easy check,as is leaving off the fuel cap!
• My old boxer used to suck in air when the fuel cap was being removed.
• Good luck

 

[glastry]

Also there is a lift pump in the fuel tank which makes the initial prime for the high pressure pump,from your description of starting procedure it is a possible culprit.!

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[Louis]

• OK --how was it checked?.
• If you have tried starting directly from a supply other than the fuel tank then it may not be fuel !!
• But the indicators of a fuel supply problem are all there,and it starts easily on a "snort" of easy start.
• It's a very easy check,as is leaving off the fuel cap!
• My old boxer used to suck in air when the fuel cap was being removed.
• Good luck

It would not start straight away if fuel problem it would only run on easy start fora few seconds

 

[tonyidle]

Ahm sorry no patronising meant, I send my sincere apologies don't want to offend, seems I need some coaching in the art of corrective postings, so sorry tonyidle

 

[treetops1]

Crankshaft or camshaft censors i would suggest .Hope its easy and cheep lol.

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[Gromett]

It is not fuel. On a really cold day it will turn over forever and not start. When I say forever I mean minutes not seconds. Then the tiniest hint of easy start and off it goes.
Secondly on a really hot day it starts straight up even if it hasn't been started for a week. Also there is a strong smell of diesel within a few seconds of attempting to start from the exhaust.

Finally 2 mechanics who I must assume know what they are doing have ruled out everything else, battery, starter motor, fuel pump, air leak etc.

 

[Jaws]

The fact it starts with a sniff of easy start does suggest low compression to be honest..
You sure you aint got an old Ford York engine in it ! ?? !!!!

 

[Enword]

You sure you aint got an old Ford York engine in it ! ?? !!!!

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[Gromett]

Finally got to the bottom of the problem.

Whoever had the van before me had starting problems. They disconnected the solenoid for the injector and connected it directly to the top of the flamestarter.

The mechanic discovered this when he got a digital scope on the injector solenoid and discovered it was permanently on and not pulsing.

After correcting the wiring back to original he retested the solenoid, the flamestarter and the relay and it all checked out ok. However we couldn't test it in operation as the sun came out today (Grrr) and raised the temperature above where it kicks in.

He has put a switch in line with the relay activation wire so if this hasn't fixed it at least I can get it started. If it still doesn't start we can confirm it is the temperature sensor.
We can then either track down where this bugger is hiding and replace or simply put a push button in the cab.

I was impressed with this mechanic, he hadn't seen this set up before but was able to figure it out with a multi-meter and a scope.

My guess is the people who did this bodge had a problem with the temp sensor, couldn't fix it. didn't understand what the solenoid was for and just hard wired a positive on the solenoid. Then sold the van on when it didn't work. Grrr.

I am quietly confident now that my van will start properly when cold now..

 

[Jaws]

Appreciate the update mate.. thank you...

 

[Gromett]

Appreciate the update mate.. thank you...

The one time you want a cold night you start getting warm nights...

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