UK Motorhome parking Camping-Car Park may be of interest? (1 Viewer)

[GJH]

60 years ago there were few if any 'Motorhomes' - self-contained with toilet and washing facilities, only 'day vans' or campers. The 1960 act by its title was aimed at Caravans and, to cover all bases, vehicles such as trucks and buses converted for living in.

The main purpose behind the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 was to control camping in vehicles which was causing a health nuisance. It was a similar reason to the legislation governing tent camping in the Public Health Act 1936, S269.

I have asked a few times - apart from parking tickets - "Has anyone in a motorhome been prosecuted for sleeping in their motorhome?"

Anyone ?

The reason for the penalty being a parking ticket is that the sanction is included in the TRO, covering the parking area, which allows only specific use.

 

[Barclaybasher]

The main purpose behind the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 was to control camping in vehicles which was causing a health nuisance. It was a similar reason to the legislation governing tent camping in the Public Health Act 1936, S269.

The reason for the penalty being a parking ticket is that the sanction is included in the TRO, covering the parking area, which allows only specific use.

Wasn't the Act brought in because Caravans were being used as permanent accommodation ?

 

[philann]

In France CAMPING-CAR Parks are gradually taking over the management of municipal campsites from the local town hall. I suspect in the UK they will start in a similar vein as local authorities look to reduce spending. Also many smaller campsites may be interested in farming management out in return for a guaranteed income from CCP. Starting from scratch, turning car parks into aires may be down the list of priorities.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Barclaybasher]

In France CAMPING-CAR Parks are gradually taking over the management of municipal campsites from the local town hall. I suspect in the UK they will start in a similar vein as local authorities look to reduce spending. Also many smaller campsites may be interested in farming management out in return for a guaranteed income from CCP. Starting from scratch, turning car parks into aires may be down the list of priorities.

It's the location of campsites that is the problem - most are rural - not like Aires close to civilsation

 

[Barclaybasher]

To put the 1960 Act into context :

Motorhomes as we know them did not exist in 1960

Winnebago produced their first in 1966

Eriba-Hymer produced their first hand built MH in 1961 - serious production of Hymers did not start until the 70's

The 1960 Act wasn't meant for us....

 

[GJH]

Wasn't the Act brought in because Caravans were being used as permanent accommodation ?

I'm not certain but think that was separate/parallel.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Barclaybasher]

I'm not certain but think that was separate/parallel.

My father was an engineer.

In about 1952/3 I watched him build a caravan from scratch - a car or van back axle complete with empty diff.

The frame was welded angle the exterior walls were hardboard !

We had one holiday in it then it was rented out to a farmer as accommodation. It was lit with gas lamps.

It burned to the ground, fortunately nobody hurt.

The picture of the remains and a story made the local press.

It was caravans used like this that probably led to the 1960 Act.

There were few touring caravans at the time.

 

[Barclaybasher]

<Broken link removed>[/URL]

I have just read some of the bill put before parliament in 1960 - The Caravan Act

As I thought many caravan dwellers were living permanently and without proper facilities and rights.

Touring vans were a lesser issue and there seemed to be an exemption for between 1 - 3 caravans to stay for short periods while travelling...

 

[GJH]

<Broken link removed>[/URL]

I have just read some of the bill put before parliament in 1960 - The Caravan Act

As I thought many caravan dwellers were living permanently and without proper facilities and rights.

Touring vans were a lesser issue and there seemed to be an exemption for between 1 - 3 caravans to stay for short periods while travelling...

You beat me to it.
I had to go out so only just looked this up myself before checking posts further.
Yes, it does make the point that "Large numbers of people are living in caravans all the year round" but it does precede that by making the point that caravans move about.
It goes on to say "The Bill represents a carefully worked out plan to do justice to caravaners, to get caravans on to the right sites and off the wrong ones, to bring attractiveness to caravan sites as well as all modern conveniences, to give freedom to the single travelling caravan, and to stop the caravan slum." confirming the fact that the Bill (and subsequent Act) were intended to cover touring caravans.

The "exemption for between 1 - 3 caravans to stay for short periods while travelling", stated by the Minister as "being for people travelling with caravans on holiday." (further confirmation of the coverage) was enacted in Paras 2 and 3 of the First Schedule.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Jake Royd]

Have not read all of this thread but most of it.
I for one would love CCP type Aires in the UK and would be willing to pay £10/night.

 

[GJH]

Those who believe that the 1960 Act is old, out of date and needs revising might be interested in this reference - Broken Link Removed

That revisiting of the Act, dated only 15 months ago, is only one of many over the years which can be found by anyone interested by searching Hansard and parliamentary questions.

Obviously, therefore, the government/parliament feels that the provisions of the Act (as amended) are perfectly adequate for today's requirements. Thus, it is a case of working within the Act or trying to get it changed - which would mean putting together a fully evidenced argument which would convince either the government or an individual member.

 

[Barclaybasher]

You beat me to it.
I had to go out so only just looked this up myself before checking posts further.
Yes, it does make the point that "Large numbers of people are living in caravans all the year round" but it does precede that by making the point that caravans move about.
It goes on to say "The Bill represents a carefully worked out plan to do justice to caravaners, to get caravans on to the right sites and off the wrong ones, to bring attractiveness to caravan sites as well as all modern conveniences, to give freedom to the single travelling caravan, and to stop the caravan slum." confirming the fact that the Bill (and subsequent Act) were intended to cover touring caravans.

The "exemption for between 1 - 3 caravans to stay for short periods while travelling", stated by the Minister as "being for people travelling with caravans on holiday." (further confirmation of the coverage) was enacted in Paras 2 and 3 of the First Schedule.

I haven't read any of the amendments but
does the exemption for 1 - 3 caravans still stand ?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Tanya_and_Mick]

Have not read all of this thread but most of it.
I for one would love CCP type Aires in the UK and would be willing to pay £10/night.

Ditto, the world moves on and most move with it....

 

[nicholsong]

Deleted

 

[Reallyretired]

We don't want to get bogged down in the idea that aires should be free. There can be little incentive for anyone to set up a free aire in the UK, and indeed these are becoming less common even in France. We stay on paid for aires far more often than free ones, as most are nicer, the free ones often just a car park, though location is key. Our preference is for ones near a river or lake (for the dogs) and an easy walk into a small town or village (many CCP are like this and we use them). Others may prefer a city centre location, and these may be free more often.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[mitzimad]

Is this in the UK?

theres three in kent just extra long spaces for motorhomes no spacing pay at machine

 

[nicholsong]

Camping. Sleeping is an act of habitation and in the UK (not just England) any habitation of the vehicle is camping, not parking. This comes from the definition of a caravan site in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (as amended) as being “land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed”. The definition of a caravan includes a motorhome.

The Act covers all off-street land, highways being subject to separate legislation. There is no national legislation banning sleeping in a caravan in a lay-by or alongside a road as long as regulations regarding lighting &c are complied with but there are local traffic orders in some places which impose restrictions. Having said that, if a local authority considers that a nuisance is caused by someone living in a motorhome alongside a highway long term then it can take action under other legislation.

For further information see Here, Here and Here.

GJH

The defintion you give in support of that statement is only quoted in part. The full definition is

"In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed. "

So that definition is only for Part I of the Act Caravan sites.

It does not follow that that definition applies away from 'Caravan sites'. That may be defined in case law which I have not seen.

Geoff

 

[GJH]

I haven't read any of the amendments but
does the exemption for 1 - 3 caravans still stand ?

Yes, with the limit of no more than 28 nights in any 12 month period.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

GJH

The defintion you give in support of that statement is only quoted in part. The full definition is

"In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed. "

So that definition is only for Part I of the Act Caravan sites.

It does not follow that that definition applies away from 'Caravan sites'. That may be defined in case law which I have not seen.

Geoff

It appears that you are confusing the term "caravan site" with an area on which a licensed caravan site has been set up.
What it mean, legally, is that as soon as somebody stations a caravan on land for the purposes of human habitation that land becomes a caravan site.
In addition, it is immaterial that "that definition is only for Part I of the Act" because Part I is the substantive part of the Act. Part 1A refers to S1(4) in defining what is a site, Part II has been replaced by subsequent legislation and Part III is just the general bits that all acts have.

Frankly, you are wasting your time trying to find ways round the legislation because (other than the exemptions) they don't exist. Anyone creating an aire - whether is be a private company like CCP or a local authority allowing camping in its car parks - will only be able to do so in accordance with the 1960 Act. Thus it is far more constructive to work with the Act and spend time putting together a properly evidenced case as to why it is worth the while of the landowner creating an aire.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Yes, with the limit of no more than 28 nights in any 12 month period.

Is that limit for one place?

If it is it would not affect most of us who only want to stay a day or 2, or even a week

 

[GJH]

Is that limit for one place?

If it is it would not affect most of us who only want to stay a day or 2, or even a week

With the proviso of a maximum of 2 nights it is the limit for the total nights in a 12 month period that people are allowed to camp in a particular place - i.e. it applies to the land not to the people camping.

So, as I point out in This Article, a pub landlord or farmer (for instance) can perfectly legally allow people in motorhomes to stay overnight occasionally but breaks the law if there is more than one motorhome in use at any one time and/or a stay exceeds 2 nights and/or such use is allowed for more than 28 days in any 12 month period.

A particular individual could spend all year stopping no more than a couple of nights in different places but only if each of those places didn't breach the 28 maximum.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[nicholsong]

GJH

I was not seeking a way round the legislation to allow any form of group motorhome occupancy anywhere, I was mentally relating your

" Sleeping is an act of habitation and in the UK (not just England) any habitation of the vehicle is camping, not parking "

as it would seem it could be applied to wildcamping, suggesting that sleeping = habitation = camping.

Wheras the quotation applies only to the Act, not generally, and does not support its relevance to wildcamping, as it could if not applied in context.

Geoff

 

[Barclaybasher]

With the proviso of a maximum of 2 nights it is the limit for the total nights in a 12 month period that people are allowed to camp in a particular place - i.e. it applies to the land not to the people camping.

So, as I point out in This Article, a pub landlord or farmer (for instance) can perfectly legally allow people in motorhomes to stay overnight occasionally but breaks the law if there is more than one motorhome in use at any one time and/or a stay exceeds 2 nights and/or such use is allowed for more than 28 days in any 12 month period.

A particular individual could spend all year stopping no more than a couple of nights in different places but only if each of those places didn't breach the 28 maximum.

So the Caravan Act does not stop you sleeping in your van then if you do as you say above.

It would follow surely that parking restrictions refer only to the vehicle and sleeping should be allowed.

Sorry to keep coming back to you Graham but you do know more about it than anyone

 

[chaser]

So the Caravan Act does not stop you sleeping in your van then if you do as you say above.

It would follow surely that parking restrictions refer only to the vehicle and sleeping should be allowed.

Sorry to keep coming back to you Graham but you do know more about it than anyone

Yes it would now appear he has been telling us porkies all along, and you can in fact sleep in your van if there is less than three of you.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GJH]

So the Caravan Act does not stop you sleeping in your van then if you do as you say above.

It would follow surely that parking restrictions refer only to the vehicle and sleeping should be allowed.

Sorry to keep coming back to you Graham but you do know more about it than anyone

Yes it would now appear he has been telling us porkies all along, and you can in fact sleep in your van if there is less than three of you.

Porkies? Ever thought of going to Specsavers? It might help you read and understand posts more thoroughly.
Goodness knows where you get "less than three of you" from.

The exemptions in the 1960 Act are perfectly clear but they relate to camping not parking.

Permitted uses of parking places, including sleeping, are decided by the owner of the car park. If a licensing authority wishes to allow camping in its car parks it can use the Para 11 exemption but it is equally at liberty to disallow it completely. Any other car park owner would have to have a site licence or use another exemption if one fitted.

 

[GJH]

GJH

I was not seeking a way round the legislation to allow any form of group motorhome occupancy anywhere, I was mentally relating your

" Sleeping is an act of habitation and in the UK (not just England) any habitation of the vehicle is camping, not parking "

as it would seem it could be applied to wildcamping, suggesting that sleeping = habitation = camping.

Wheras the quotation applies only to the Act, not generally, and does not support its relevance to wildcamping, as it could if not applied in context.

Geoff

As you said yourself in your previous post, "The full definition is "In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed. " "

In order to "wildcamp" in a caravan (including motor caravan) one has to station the caravan on the land concerned. Ergo that land becomes a "caravan site" within the definition.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Surely the ememption for 1 - 3 holiday makers to stop overnight for a day or 2 does not refer to being on a campsite otherwise it would say only on a campsite...and the exemption wouldn't be needed in the Act

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[chaser]

Surely the ememption for 1 - 3 holiday makers to stop overnight for a day or 2 does not refer to being on a campsite otherwise it would say only on a campsite...and the exemption wouldn't be needed in the Act

Exactly and that is what GJH said himself, never been any mention of this in his other posts.

 

[nicholsong]

As you said yourself in your previous post, "The full definition is "In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed. " "

In order to "wildcamp" in a caravan (including motor caravan) one has to station the caravan on the land concerned. Ergo that land becomes a "caravan site" within the definition.

If it is land to which the Act applies that may be so, but the offence is not commited by the occupants of the vehicle, but by 'The occupier' of the land. See Section 1 of the Act.

The whole purpose of the Act is to prevent Owners/Occupiers of land from setting up unlicensed campsites. It is not aimed at the occupants of the vehicles. In the Act I can find no reference to such occupants of caravans.

Therefore, even if by stationing 'the caravan on the land concerned' ...'that land becomes a caravan site', as you allege, there is no offence commited by the occupants of the 'caravan' under that Act.

Using a definition which applies only to Part I of the Act in any other circumstances is irrelevant.

Geoff

 

[nicholsong]

As you said yourself in your previous post, "The full definition is "In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed. " "

In order to "wildcamp" in a caravan (including motor caravan) one has to station the caravan on the land concerned. Ergo that land becomes a "caravan site" within the definition.

If it is land to which the Act applies that may be so, but the offence is not commited by the occupants of the vehicle but by 'The occupier' of the land. See Setion 1 of the Act

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}