UK Motorhome parking Camping-Car Park may be of interest? (1 Viewer)

[nicholsong]

But CCPs sites will be in town, city and tourist locations where they can maximise usage/income - not out in the sticks

Well in France I have encountered them on the edge of villages.

Geoff

 

[chaser]

Looks pretty much everywhere to me

 

[Barclaybasher]

Well in France I have encountered them on the edge of villages.

Geoff

I meant in the UK where most villages do not even have carparks for CCP to use.

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[busby]

If the council's have a share in this scheme they aren't going to have you parking somewhere else.

Not many let you anyway, BUSBY.

 

[GJH]

I’m not going back through the whole thread, but for clarity, does your use of the term ‘parking’ include sleeping? My understanding from using the French aire system is that ‘parking’ included sleeping, but excludes things like tables/chairs, awnings etc., indeed I think if also doesn’t include opening hinged windows in some places. Camping permits this sort of thing, albeit sometimes within very restricted boundaries.

Not my term but that of UK law. As pointed out many times, UK law differentiates between camping and parking. In the UK, camping in a caravan (including a motorhome) has to conform with the requirements of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.
What is allowed in the French aire system is irrelevant other than (if used properly) as a source of evidence as to how similar provision could be made in the UK. The legal positions are quite different and that of France is irrelevant because it is UK law which applies, not French.

 

[emjaiuk]

Not my term but that of UK law. As pointed out many times, UK law differentiates between camping and parking. In the UK, camping in a caravan (including a motorhome) has to conform with the requirements of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.
What is allowed in the French aire system is irrelevant other than (if used properly) as a source of evidence as to how similar provision could be made in the UK. The legal positions are quite different and that of France is irrelevant because it is UK law which applies, not French.

Is sleeping in a vehicle overnight defined as campping or parking in English law?

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[chaser]

Is sleeping in a vehicle overnight defined as campping or parking in English law?

That's the problem, most people don't know or care, just read GJH many posts on this.

 

[Northernraider]

Is sleeping in a vehicle overnight defined as campping or parking in English law?

That's the problem, most people don't know or care, just read GJH many posts on this.

I prefer not to ask ....ie I don't care what the law claims I'm doing. If I'm sleeping inside a parked , fully contained vehicle whether that's a car , a motorhome or a truck I'm parked I'm not camping.

Like many laws and acts in the UK the 1960 caravan act is outdated and useless and needs changed

Years of petitions and various other actions have failed to change that

This year because a big problem has been highlighted more and more in the press and media it's finally being discussed by a lot of council's etc ...some are acting on it others are not

I'll continue to do what I do regardless until I'm forced to do something else ......but using sites is a long way down my list of options

 

[chaser]

I prefer not to ask ....ie I don't care what the law claims I'm doing. If I'm sleeping inside a parked , fully contained vehicle whether that's a car , a motorhome or a truck I'm parked I'm not camping.

Like many laws and acts in the UK the 1960 caravan act is outdated and useless and needs changed

Years of petitions and various other actions have failed to change that

This year because a big problem has been highlighted more and more in the press and media it's finally being discussed by a lot of council's etc ...some are acting on it others are not

I'll continue to do what I do regardless until I'm forced to do something else ......but using sites is a long way down my list of options

Hey mate ,I fully agree with you but emjaiuk asked for the definition of the law.

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[Shrimp]

If Camping Car Parks get into UK the “Aires” will not be free!
I can’t see it happening as we just don’t have the land to spare and the Clubs (& others) won’t stand for it!

 

[Speve]

If Camping Car Parks get into UK the “Aires” will not be free!
I can’t see it happening as we just don’t have the land to spare and the Clubs (& others) won’t stand for it!

If you read the whole thread you will see that there is a group called CAMpRA on FB that are working towards obtaining more aire type parking in UK and they are asking for space in existing underused car parks etc and as far as the main clubs go they are not be all and end all.

 

[chaser]

If you read the whole thread you will see that there is a group called CAMpRA on FB that are working towards obtaining more aire type parking in UK and they are asking for space in existing underused car parks etc and as far as the main clubs go they are not be all and end all.

And if you read the whole thread you will see that there is a 60 year old law that says they can't, no one has managed to shift it yet.

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[Old Rascal]

Survey completed.
Good luck to them.

 

[chaser]

For anyone who has never used Aires or been to Europe in a motorhome, there is an excellent article just popped up on my phone, well worth a read

Motorhome Aires in France and Europe ~ Campervan Castaways

Read The Essential Guide to Motorhome Aires in France and Europe sharing eveything you need to know about this overnight parking system

campervancastaways.com

 

[SpeedyDux]

Is sleeping in a vehicle overnight defined as campping or parking in English law?

I have yet to find an actual definition. There are many things that the law has carefully avoided defining. As with elephants, you recognise camping when you see it.

On roads and car parks, activities such as sleeping in vehicles or camping tend to be prohibited by TROs made by the local authority.

E&OE etc usual disclaimers apply

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[Barclaybasher]

Has anyone ever had a ticket for sleeping in their van ?

 

[nicholsong]

I have yet to find an actual definition. There are many things that the law has carefully avoided defining. As with elephants, you recognise camping when you see it.

On roads and car parks, activities such as sleeping in vehicles or camping tend to be prohibited by TROs made by the local authority.

E&OE etc usual disclaimers apply

I have not researched it, but I have often wondered whether the primary legislation passed by Parliament does actually authorise local authorities to issue TROs to prohibit 'sleeping', since it cannot affect traffic in any way.

Geoff

 

[chaser]

One thing I used to ask in other threads but never got a real answer apart from references to the law, what is the difference between parking your car or motorhome all night in a car park on its own, or you sleeping in it?
How the hell is that camping?

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[SpeedyDux]

I have not researched it, but I have often wondered whether the primary legislation passed by Parliament does actually authorise local authorities to issue TROs to prohibit 'sleeping', since it cannot affect traffic in any way.

Geoff

See http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2018/3600.html

The point you raise doesn't appear to have been made by the Claimant's advocate.

 

[nicholsong]

I have not researched it, but I have often wondered whether the primary legislation passed by Parliament does actually authorise local authorities to issue TROs to prohibit 'sleeping', since it cannot affect traffic in any way.

Geoff

Further to my post quoted, I have looked at the Act authorising LAs to make TROs(Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and have the following observations to make.

I have not made an exhaustive study of the Act, but its purpose seems to be clear.

The whole tenor of the Act is aimed at regulations for vehicles and there is no mention of persons or activities within vehicles. The only exception to the mention of persons is to 'Driver' being the person who can be held liable for a breach.

I think that two points ensue from this. Firstly, that the LAs seem to be open to challenge that the TRO has been made 'Ultra Vires' (beyond its powers) and therefore is not valid. Secondly, that it would be difficult for the LA to allege that a sleeping person is the 'driver' who can be accused of the alleged offence.

When TRO is made it has to state under what provisions, of the Act, it is made.

It would be very useful if some Members on here who see a sign against 'sleeping' could please access the TRO at the LA and report the basis for making the TRO given within it.

Geoff

 

[Speve]

And if you read the whole thread you will see that there is a 60 year old law that says they can't, no one has managed to shift it yet.

Dont really want to know about the much discussed law all I know is there are a group of folk out there trying their very best to persuade LAs and companies to set up aires, they are having some very positive replies from councils who are considering their requests and even some that have some Motorhome parking.
So there must be ways around it or the ones set up now would be illegal wouldn’t they?
I’m absolutely amazed at the negativity and criticism of these people who are not being paid to do it but can see through the fog and hopefully have some success.
Let’s give them A round of applause and as much support as we can and perhaps benefit from their efforts instead of winging at everything they do.
here is one such positive outcome of their work.

Having printed off a load of literature for a meeting of Monmouth Town Council, I am pleased to report that the council is going to refer the recommendation for overnight motorhome parking in Monmouth Town Centre to the Highways Department within the tourist department of County Council. I must give my local independant Town Councillor, Kelly, a huge huge thank you for getting behind us on this and giving us so much support.. Let's hope we can bring the dream to reality really soon.....

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[chaser]

Dont really want to know about the much discussed law all I know is there are a group of folk out there trying their very best to persuade LAs and companies to set up aires, they are having some very positive replies from councils who are considering their requests and even some that have some Motorhome parking.
So there must be ways around it or the ones set up now would be illegal wouldn’t they?
I’m absolutely amazed at the negativity and criticism of these people who are not being paid to do it but can see through the fog and hopefully have some success.
Let’s give them A round of applause and as much support as we can and perhaps benefit from their efforts instead of winging at everything they do.
here is one such positive outcome of their work.

Having printed off a load of literature for a meeting of Monmouth Town Council, I am pleased to report that the council is going to refer the recommendation for overnight motorhome parking in Monmouth Town Centre to the Highways Department within the tourist department of County Council. I must give my local independant Town Councillor, Kelly, a huge huge thank you for getting behind us on this and giving us so much support.. Let's hope we can bring the dream to reality really soon.....

That is totally different than the CCP thing and I roundly applaud you for it.
Hope it all goes well and spreads to other council's before big business gets a foot in the door

 

[Speve]

That is totally different than the CCP thing and I roundly applaud you for it.
Hope it all goes well and spreads to other council's before big business gets a foot in the door

This is the same campaign they are trying lots of different approaches CCP is only one of them they are doing some great work

 

[jongood]

If you read the whole thread you will see that there is a group called CAMpRA on FB that are working towards obtaining more aire type parking in UK and they are asking for space in existing underused car parks etc and as far as the main clubs go they are not be all and end all.

I would like to get involved and I'm no technophobe but I just cannot get on with Facebook, I ve tried again recently and its just not me. Is there any chance that they can do a non facebook version?

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[Speve]

I would like to get involved and I'm no technophobe but I just cannot get on with Facebook, I ve tried again recently and its just not me. Is there any chance that they can do a non facebook version?

They have a web site www.campra.org.uk hope that’s useful?

 

[GJH]

Is sleeping in a vehicle overnight defined as campping or parking in English law?

Camping. Sleeping is an act of habitation and in the UK (not just England) any habitation of the vehicle is camping, not parking. This comes from the definition of a caravan site in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (as amended) as being “land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed”. The definition of a caravan includes a motorhome.

The Act covers all off-street land, highways being subject to separate legislation. There is no national legislation banning sleeping in a caravan in a lay-by or alongside a road as long as regulations regarding lighting &c are complied with but there are local traffic orders in some places which impose restrictions. Having said that, if a local authority considers that a nuisance is caused by someone living in a motorhome alongside a highway long term then it can take action under other legislation.

For further information see Here, Here and Here.

 

[GJH]

Dont really want to know about the much discussed law all I know is there are a group of folk out there trying their very best to persuade LAs and companies to set up aires, they are having some very positive replies from councils who are considering their requests and even some that have some Motorhome parking.
So there must be ways around it or the ones set up now would be illegal wouldn’t they?

Not "ways round it" but a specific exemption. The one in Paragraph 11 of the First Schedule of the 1960 Act. The one which some of us (well before Campra was formed) used to help persuade councils to allow "the ones set up now".

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[GJH]

Further to my post quoted, I have looked at the Act authorising LAs to make TROs(Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984) and have the following observations to make.

I have not made an exhaustive study of the Act, but its purpose seems to be clear.

The whole tenor of the Act is aimed at regulations for vehicles and there is no mention of persons or activities within vehicles. The only exception to the mention of persons is to 'Driver' being the person who can be held liable for a breach.

I think that two points ensue from this. Firstly, that the LAs seem to be open to challenge that the TRO has been made 'Ultra Vires' (beyond its powers) and therefore is not valid. Secondly, that it would be difficult for the LA to allege that a sleeping person is the 'driver' who can be accused of the alleged offence.

When TRO is made it has to state under what provisions, of the Act, it is made.

It would be very useful if some Members on here who see a sign against 'sleeping' could please access the TRO at the LA and report the basis for making the TRO given within it.

Geoff

It would appear that you have misread/misunderstood S35 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

 

[GJH]

One thing I used to ask in other threads but never got a real answer apart from references to the law, what is the difference between parking your car or motorhome all night in a car park on its own, or you sleeping in it?
How the hell is that camping?

As pointed out time after time after time. Sleeping is an act of habitation.

 

[Barclaybasher]

60 years ago there were few if any 'Motorhomes' - self-contained with toilet and washing facilities, only 'day vans' or campers. The 1960 act by its title was aimed at Caravans and, to cover all bases, vehicles such as trucks and buses converted for living in.

I have asked a few times - apart from parking tickets - "Has anyone in a motorhome been prosecuted for sleeping in their motorhome?"

Anyone ?

I don't support van owners who selfishly outstay their welcome or dispose of any waste irresponsibly.

I do support the efforts being made to allow sleeping overnight and would pay to do so and pay to dispose of waste and fill with water.

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