johnsandywhite
Free Member
:Cool: Life can be great out on the open road. Parking wherever and whenever you want. But life is not always a bed of roses. Sometimes there are one or two thorns to contend with:-
Problems we had Full-Timing:-
Where do we begin? I suppose the best place is at the beginning. So here goes:-
Bought 1st September 2000 :- The biggest problem was learning to handle a 31ft vehicle. It had been a long time since I had driven anything so large. A car and caravan may be the same length, but they bend. Usually in the middle. The biggest problem was not the length, but the overhang from the rear wheels. When you turned, it pivoted at the rear in a great big arc. After one or two close encounters, I finally got the hang of it. The overhang also caused a problem with the petrol tank and rear bottoming out on steep changes of incline. Mainly embarking and dis-embarking from Ferries. Having only two 75 ah leisure batteries, we were soon using up the available power. What with satellite, computers, plus the normal everyday use. They couldn't keep up with the job. I had already planned to add 2 more 120 ah which I had already bought, so exchanged them. Still using too much power. Answer? Have a 120w Solar panel fitted at Poole in Dorset. (Expensive?) Why don't we use the generator? We do! But we don't like to annoy other people, so we only use it when we have to. (See later)
September 17th 2000 :- Dropped our daughter Mandy off at Lyon University in France, on our way heading towards Spain for the Winter. Roadworks were in operation at Beziers. Road cones on metal poles sticking out into the road on both sides. Swerved a little to miss hitting the front lights on the cones. The rear side repeating light hit them instead. My reaction was to correct the pivoting rear end. Result, hit the other side light and broke that too. Later on in the month, we were turning around in an urbanisation with high curbs. Hit the curb with the waste pipe, while reversing. Result? It proceeded to try and push it's way up through the floor, taking just about everything with it. We used the jack, plus peices of wood and rocks as manipulation tools. Then with a pair of pliers, a knife, some string and some silicone sealer, we managed to put it almost back together as if it hadn't happened (I wish! Must buy some tools!).
October 2000 to January 2001 :- Still using too much power. Answer? Fit two more solar panels myself. One a 120w, the other a 50w. Cost? £100 less than the first one cost by itself. Bought them through a Dutch friend of ours. No major problems to fit. Just a matter of planning where and how to fit the panels, and where to run the cables. Sandy was the most excellent 'Gofer'. During this time, the engine was having an intermittent misfire. Sometimes it would run perfect for 60 or 70 miles, then misfire. Sometimes, really badly. Checked most things, couldn't find anything, Thought it could be a faulty fuel pump or an intermittent electrical fault. Finally broke down on the way to visit friends in the Orba valley. (Sandy and I had given up smoking for the New Year). The engine would only start on full throttle. That's a little bit difficult with an automatic. Having to start in 'Park' or 'Nuetral', then try to not to smash everything going into 'Drive'. The problem was made worse because we were stuck on an hill, between traffic lights, on a one-way system. We had cars behind, and cars coming towards us. If the road was empty, there was just enough room for us to traverse it without knocking down any houses. Needless to say, when we eventually got through the village of Sanet y Negrals, we pulled up and had a smoke. Three days later, 'John the Bash' (local superstar mechanic) stripped the carburettor down, re-sealed it and pronounced the problem cured. (I didn't think so at the time, but I paid him anyway.) At least the engine started and was running slightly better.
Part two starts now:-
January to March 2001 :- We completed our visits to friends in the Orba valley. Then we slowly made our way back up to Lyon to pick up Mandy. We got there OK. Caught the Ferry, dropped off Mandy at Luton, and headed off towards Coventry with the intention of calling at 'Midland American Motorhomes'. The weather was the usual. Buckets of water falling down from the sky, causing us to miss our correct turn off. We were on the by-pass when we heard a rumble from the rear followed by an enormous bang. Just a short distance further on, the same thing and everything dipped to the rear offside. We stopped as quickly and safely as we could to investigate. Problem? 2 blown offside rear tyres. (We had been running the tyres at the recommended pressures, 55 to 65 psi. Should be 85 to 95.) Hazard lights flashing, we reversed 200 yards back to a lay-by. Phoned the breakdown services and waited several hours. Then on checking, I realised Sandy had not dictated to me our correct Mobile number. Rang the breakdown service again, starting from scratch. Guess who came to our assistance? Yes - 'Midland American Motorhomes'. In the proceeding hour of torrential downpour, they succeeded in replacing my wheels with 2 of there's. We followed them back to their premises during a thunderstorm which included ice and snow. A couple of days past before they could fit our new tyres and steel liner. They then started checking for the problem of the engine misfire. When they eventually found the fault, it turned out to be 'plug leads'. Even they were dumbfounded. While we were there we contacted an LPG conversion company who arranged to use the facilities on site to do our conversion for us. We spent 2 weeks at the premises and left happy with the conversion and repairs. The facilities on site were great, but we were thankful to be finally on our way again. After visiting our families, we set off for Germany to visit friends there. Filling up with LPG in England and France was not much of a problem, but in Germany it was. We later found out what to look for (Flüssiggas). We had just arrived at Staffelsee, Murnau, Germany, when it started to snow. It did so for 4 straight days and nights (See the Photo Album). One of the reasons for going to Germany, apart from visiting our friends, was the opportunity to go to the Munich Motorhome and Caravan show. The intention being to look at the different 'Automatic Satellite Systems'. This we did, and our friend 'Ed' helped us to get a very good deal over the internet and phone, for a 'Kathrien' system. That's one advantage of being in the common market, so shop around! Another problem solved. Many large meals and bottles of Vino later. With the snow melting just a little. We set off once again for sunny Spain.
Part three is here :-
Typical Problems :- With a full tank of reasonably cheap petrol (Spain). You get into what we call 'the trucking mode'. You just don't want to stop to go and empty the old bladder. Our solution, (probably highly illegal?) is to go into 'cruise mode', and change drivers. We then use the facilities we have on board. Must say! The first time I tried it, I nearly had to sit down! (Think about it!) One of our problems is we like wild camping too. We know! We've heard all about the spongers of society, living off the backs of others. We had five years on a camp site. We made lot's of friends, and generally enjoyed being there. But at the end of the day, if you don't like the neighbours (or perhaps the other way round). You have only one choice. Sell up, probably at a great loss and move on. If you are wild camping and don't like your neighbours you can easily move on. No packing away of the awning, or coupling up the car and caravan. Just pop a few things into drawers. Start up! Hey presto, we've gone. But the problem we have being wild campers is finding a place where facilities are good. We do not want to create problems for other people. We try not to be too noisy (for instance running the generator). We do not leave a mess. Disposing of our rubbish of all kinds, are one of our main priorities. We eventually find this Utopia. Others join us, then we all finish up having to move on. Another problem, is the constant one of parking in a position that is safe from accident and thieves. Yes! We have had both, see later problems. When we had a smaller camper, (See Photo) we used to be able to park in the same place as a car. Not so easy now at 31ft. Although most of the larger Supermarkets have ample parking space, they seem to not want larger vehicles on the premises. Barriers! We need 3.4 metres (11.2ft) minimum to get under. Some smaller garages pose a problem at times. (Sod's law!) Usually where your fill up point is, the access is too restrictive. Once in Germany we had travelled quite some way off the main roads in order to fill up with LPG. (We also required our domestic gas filling up.) The village we had planned to call at, turned out to be one road in and out. The garage (??) was some 75 yards off the road, down a small, narrow lane. (In such a position, I usually walk the route to ascertain whether it is possible or not.) After several procedures of forward, turn, reverse, turn etc, we eventually managed to fill up and be on our way. Another problem of being mobile, is the requirement of keeping in touch with friends and relatives. The phone is fine up to a point. But it can prove rather expensive when in foreign lands. (Even in the UK!) Our solution is to send e-mails to the one's who have the facility. The one's who don't, we write a letter, but receive no replies. We use the mobile phone to send quick, short, text messages. We also use the mobile phone along with the computer to access the internet.
Part Four starts here :-
March 2001 - Continued :- We fitted the 'Kathrien' Satellite system with no major problems. The biggest of which was having the instructions in 'German'. Sandy was once again the most able 'Gofer'. Got moved on by the police (along with 15 others that had joined us at one of our regular parking areas) at midnight. Moved to a lay-by on the outskirts of Benidorm. Parked a little too close to the curb. Result? The awning was slightly torn by the sharp trimmed edges of the Palm trees. (The awning had been badly weathered on the upper edge over the years. Sod's law yet again!) The sun doesn't always shine in Spain. They can have dull weather too. When it happens, eventually the storage power of the batteries gets used up. Answer? Run the generator. Wrong! The generator won't start. Not even turn over. Not a flutter. DEAD. Strip everything down, check all the connections. Found the bad connections. Sorted! Not yet! It turns over and starts, but will not continue running. To cut a long story short, had to strip down to the circuit board where I found a resistor had rotted away it's connection to the circuit board. Solution? Soldered up a new connection. Generator running. Why didn't we run the main motor? That wouldn't start either. Flat battery. When it rains it pours!
September & October 2001 - Arrived in Spain for our winter stay. Raining. Always does. Never fails. But when the sun comes out, it's worth it. Just got settled at the beach, phone message on our UK mobile. We have to move our equipment from our friends garage as they are turning it into a flat. Dash down to the Orba valley. They are in Ireland, not back for two weeks. We visit some of our other friends. Then generally pass the time walking, riding around the Orange groves and up and down the mountains. We have a game of tennis or two. Finally load up 2 tons of equipment and set off to take it to the UK. Spent a couple of weeks just south of Barcelona to top up the tan. Called at our Spanish friends garage to have a second battery box constructed to carry our second pair of 120ah batteries. Then set off for France and the ferry. More to follow:-
Part Five :-
October 2001 continued - We use to go from Santander to Plymouth. But, because our families are now scattered around near Southampton, Luton and Yorkshire. Plymouth is no longer a viable port for us. P&O, Bilbao to Portsmouth, we don't like in any shape or form. We don't like having to have a berth forced on us, that we do not want, at a price we shouldn't have to pay. Still, that's another story! So! We have worked out that by using LPG in France and England, and using the free roads in France and Spain, we pay almost the same within a few pounds. Why don't we use the Motorways in France and Spain? Well, why do we have to pay the same as if we were a 12 wheeler juggernaut? It costs us £1 to travel the Dartford tunnel/bridge. Nuff said! (Fishes back side comes to mind. ed.) By the way, there is an excellent route from Caen, Deippe or Le Havre to the south of France, that is 65% to 70% free Motorway. I digress - back to the journey. We had a some brake fade coming down the Pyrenees (we had had that before when we had done a large amount of braking, so thought nothing of it). The brakes gradually got worse, so pulled up to check the fluid. Checked under the bonnet, and topped up the fluid. Continued on to Rouen. We were coming through a series of traffic lights, sweeping bends, turns, bends, and up and down hills, when the brakes failed completely. Yanked on the hand brake. That failed too. Nowhere to go. Car's on both sides of us. Result? Hit a nice shiny, metallic blue, brand new Puegot 406. His vehicle managed to stop our's before we could hit anything else. But it made quite a mess of his prized car. After some time of filling out reports, talking to the police, with the help of a local French, ex-American student (who got married to a Danish girl while they lived in Holland), as interpreter. We taped our bonnet back onto the front, and proceeded at a very slow speed. Finally pulled up at a Motorway service garage and waited for the morning. They called out a mechanic who spent several hours checking the brakes before announcing he could not do anything there. We would have to be taken to his main workshop. End of the day arrived and a very large tow truck came and started stripping off our prop shaft to facilitate the towing of our home. This was followed by a hairy journey up the motorway in the opposite direction we were travelling. This resulted in us being taken to some sort of motorway graveyard. So, we set up the satellite to await the morning. It came! They didn't! At 4.30 pm, action at last! Seems the fluid I topped up was for the steering. The one for the brakes was over the front near side wheel. Thirty minutes and a lot of money later! We were on our way. An expensive lesson learned. I should just mention here. I took the motorhome to a respectable, well reputed, American Specialist to have a 30000 mile full service/check up and M.O.T. The results from the tests were:- Front brakes 30% worn, Rear Brakes 10% worn. Handbrake - hardly at all. (More on this later.) We took the ferry from Le Havre to Portsmouth for a 10 day trip. Guess what? Sure as eggs are eggs, (Sod's law again) we have to go through Custom's for a full check. The only place they didn't look was under the bed. (No! We had nothing under there either!) They even looked in the flight cases of our equipment. Still! You can't blame them! They are only doing their job aren't they? (What was that?) If I had a pound for everytime I was stopped by Custom's, I could afford to buy my cigarettes and wine in England. Never mind! Here we go! On with the Journey:-
Problems we had Full-Timing:-
Where do we begin? I suppose the best place is at the beginning. So here goes:-
Bought 1st September 2000 :- The biggest problem was learning to handle a 31ft vehicle. It had been a long time since I had driven anything so large. A car and caravan may be the same length, but they bend. Usually in the middle. The biggest problem was not the length, but the overhang from the rear wheels. When you turned, it pivoted at the rear in a great big arc. After one or two close encounters, I finally got the hang of it. The overhang also caused a problem with the petrol tank and rear bottoming out on steep changes of incline. Mainly embarking and dis-embarking from Ferries. Having only two 75 ah leisure batteries, we were soon using up the available power. What with satellite, computers, plus the normal everyday use. They couldn't keep up with the job. I had already planned to add 2 more 120 ah which I had already bought, so exchanged them. Still using too much power. Answer? Have a 120w Solar panel fitted at Poole in Dorset. (Expensive?) Why don't we use the generator? We do! But we don't like to annoy other people, so we only use it when we have to. (See later)
September 17th 2000 :- Dropped our daughter Mandy off at Lyon University in France, on our way heading towards Spain for the Winter. Roadworks were in operation at Beziers. Road cones on metal poles sticking out into the road on both sides. Swerved a little to miss hitting the front lights on the cones. The rear side repeating light hit them instead. My reaction was to correct the pivoting rear end. Result, hit the other side light and broke that too. Later on in the month, we were turning around in an urbanisation with high curbs. Hit the curb with the waste pipe, while reversing. Result? It proceeded to try and push it's way up through the floor, taking just about everything with it. We used the jack, plus peices of wood and rocks as manipulation tools. Then with a pair of pliers, a knife, some string and some silicone sealer, we managed to put it almost back together as if it hadn't happened (I wish! Must buy some tools!).
October 2000 to January 2001 :- Still using too much power. Answer? Fit two more solar panels myself. One a 120w, the other a 50w. Cost? £100 less than the first one cost by itself. Bought them through a Dutch friend of ours. No major problems to fit. Just a matter of planning where and how to fit the panels, and where to run the cables. Sandy was the most excellent 'Gofer'. During this time, the engine was having an intermittent misfire. Sometimes it would run perfect for 60 or 70 miles, then misfire. Sometimes, really badly. Checked most things, couldn't find anything, Thought it could be a faulty fuel pump or an intermittent electrical fault. Finally broke down on the way to visit friends in the Orba valley. (Sandy and I had given up smoking for the New Year). The engine would only start on full throttle. That's a little bit difficult with an automatic. Having to start in 'Park' or 'Nuetral', then try to not to smash everything going into 'Drive'. The problem was made worse because we were stuck on an hill, between traffic lights, on a one-way system. We had cars behind, and cars coming towards us. If the road was empty, there was just enough room for us to traverse it without knocking down any houses. Needless to say, when we eventually got through the village of Sanet y Negrals, we pulled up and had a smoke. Three days later, 'John the Bash' (local superstar mechanic) stripped the carburettor down, re-sealed it and pronounced the problem cured. (I didn't think so at the time, but I paid him anyway.) At least the engine started and was running slightly better.
Part two starts now:-
January to March 2001 :- We completed our visits to friends in the Orba valley. Then we slowly made our way back up to Lyon to pick up Mandy. We got there OK. Caught the Ferry, dropped off Mandy at Luton, and headed off towards Coventry with the intention of calling at 'Midland American Motorhomes'. The weather was the usual. Buckets of water falling down from the sky, causing us to miss our correct turn off. We were on the by-pass when we heard a rumble from the rear followed by an enormous bang. Just a short distance further on, the same thing and everything dipped to the rear offside. We stopped as quickly and safely as we could to investigate. Problem? 2 blown offside rear tyres. (We had been running the tyres at the recommended pressures, 55 to 65 psi. Should be 85 to 95.) Hazard lights flashing, we reversed 200 yards back to a lay-by. Phoned the breakdown services and waited several hours. Then on checking, I realised Sandy had not dictated to me our correct Mobile number. Rang the breakdown service again, starting from scratch. Guess who came to our assistance? Yes - 'Midland American Motorhomes'. In the proceeding hour of torrential downpour, they succeeded in replacing my wheels with 2 of there's. We followed them back to their premises during a thunderstorm which included ice and snow. A couple of days past before they could fit our new tyres and steel liner. They then started checking for the problem of the engine misfire. When they eventually found the fault, it turned out to be 'plug leads'. Even they were dumbfounded. While we were there we contacted an LPG conversion company who arranged to use the facilities on site to do our conversion for us. We spent 2 weeks at the premises and left happy with the conversion and repairs. The facilities on site were great, but we were thankful to be finally on our way again. After visiting our families, we set off for Germany to visit friends there. Filling up with LPG in England and France was not much of a problem, but in Germany it was. We later found out what to look for (Flüssiggas). We had just arrived at Staffelsee, Murnau, Germany, when it started to snow. It did so for 4 straight days and nights (See the Photo Album). One of the reasons for going to Germany, apart from visiting our friends, was the opportunity to go to the Munich Motorhome and Caravan show. The intention being to look at the different 'Automatic Satellite Systems'. This we did, and our friend 'Ed' helped us to get a very good deal over the internet and phone, for a 'Kathrien' system. That's one advantage of being in the common market, so shop around! Another problem solved. Many large meals and bottles of Vino later. With the snow melting just a little. We set off once again for sunny Spain.
Part three is here :-
Typical Problems :- With a full tank of reasonably cheap petrol (Spain). You get into what we call 'the trucking mode'. You just don't want to stop to go and empty the old bladder. Our solution, (probably highly illegal?) is to go into 'cruise mode', and change drivers. We then use the facilities we have on board. Must say! The first time I tried it, I nearly had to sit down! (Think about it!) One of our problems is we like wild camping too. We know! We've heard all about the spongers of society, living off the backs of others. We had five years on a camp site. We made lot's of friends, and generally enjoyed being there. But at the end of the day, if you don't like the neighbours (or perhaps the other way round). You have only one choice. Sell up, probably at a great loss and move on. If you are wild camping and don't like your neighbours you can easily move on. No packing away of the awning, or coupling up the car and caravan. Just pop a few things into drawers. Start up! Hey presto, we've gone. But the problem we have being wild campers is finding a place where facilities are good. We do not want to create problems for other people. We try not to be too noisy (for instance running the generator). We do not leave a mess. Disposing of our rubbish of all kinds, are one of our main priorities. We eventually find this Utopia. Others join us, then we all finish up having to move on. Another problem, is the constant one of parking in a position that is safe from accident and thieves. Yes! We have had both, see later problems. When we had a smaller camper, (See Photo) we used to be able to park in the same place as a car. Not so easy now at 31ft. Although most of the larger Supermarkets have ample parking space, they seem to not want larger vehicles on the premises. Barriers! We need 3.4 metres (11.2ft) minimum to get under. Some smaller garages pose a problem at times. (Sod's law!) Usually where your fill up point is, the access is too restrictive. Once in Germany we had travelled quite some way off the main roads in order to fill up with LPG. (We also required our domestic gas filling up.) The village we had planned to call at, turned out to be one road in and out. The garage (??) was some 75 yards off the road, down a small, narrow lane. (In such a position, I usually walk the route to ascertain whether it is possible or not.) After several procedures of forward, turn, reverse, turn etc, we eventually managed to fill up and be on our way. Another problem of being mobile, is the requirement of keeping in touch with friends and relatives. The phone is fine up to a point. But it can prove rather expensive when in foreign lands. (Even in the UK!) Our solution is to send e-mails to the one's who have the facility. The one's who don't, we write a letter, but receive no replies. We use the mobile phone to send quick, short, text messages. We also use the mobile phone along with the computer to access the internet.
Part Four starts here :-
March 2001 - Continued :- We fitted the 'Kathrien' Satellite system with no major problems. The biggest of which was having the instructions in 'German'. Sandy was once again the most able 'Gofer'. Got moved on by the police (along with 15 others that had joined us at one of our regular parking areas) at midnight. Moved to a lay-by on the outskirts of Benidorm. Parked a little too close to the curb. Result? The awning was slightly torn by the sharp trimmed edges of the Palm trees. (The awning had been badly weathered on the upper edge over the years. Sod's law yet again!) The sun doesn't always shine in Spain. They can have dull weather too. When it happens, eventually the storage power of the batteries gets used up. Answer? Run the generator. Wrong! The generator won't start. Not even turn over. Not a flutter. DEAD. Strip everything down, check all the connections. Found the bad connections. Sorted! Not yet! It turns over and starts, but will not continue running. To cut a long story short, had to strip down to the circuit board where I found a resistor had rotted away it's connection to the circuit board. Solution? Soldered up a new connection. Generator running. Why didn't we run the main motor? That wouldn't start either. Flat battery. When it rains it pours!
September & October 2001 - Arrived in Spain for our winter stay. Raining. Always does. Never fails. But when the sun comes out, it's worth it. Just got settled at the beach, phone message on our UK mobile. We have to move our equipment from our friends garage as they are turning it into a flat. Dash down to the Orba valley. They are in Ireland, not back for two weeks. We visit some of our other friends. Then generally pass the time walking, riding around the Orange groves and up and down the mountains. We have a game of tennis or two. Finally load up 2 tons of equipment and set off to take it to the UK. Spent a couple of weeks just south of Barcelona to top up the tan. Called at our Spanish friends garage to have a second battery box constructed to carry our second pair of 120ah batteries. Then set off for France and the ferry. More to follow:-
Part Five :-
October 2001 continued - We use to go from Santander to Plymouth. But, because our families are now scattered around near Southampton, Luton and Yorkshire. Plymouth is no longer a viable port for us. P&O, Bilbao to Portsmouth, we don't like in any shape or form. We don't like having to have a berth forced on us, that we do not want, at a price we shouldn't have to pay. Still, that's another story! So! We have worked out that by using LPG in France and England, and using the free roads in France and Spain, we pay almost the same within a few pounds. Why don't we use the Motorways in France and Spain? Well, why do we have to pay the same as if we were a 12 wheeler juggernaut? It costs us £1 to travel the Dartford tunnel/bridge. Nuff said! (Fishes back side comes to mind. ed.) By the way, there is an excellent route from Caen, Deippe or Le Havre to the south of France, that is 65% to 70% free Motorway. I digress - back to the journey. We had a some brake fade coming down the Pyrenees (we had had that before when we had done a large amount of braking, so thought nothing of it). The brakes gradually got worse, so pulled up to check the fluid. Checked under the bonnet, and topped up the fluid. Continued on to Rouen. We were coming through a series of traffic lights, sweeping bends, turns, bends, and up and down hills, when the brakes failed completely. Yanked on the hand brake. That failed too. Nowhere to go. Car's on both sides of us. Result? Hit a nice shiny, metallic blue, brand new Puegot 406. His vehicle managed to stop our's before we could hit anything else. But it made quite a mess of his prized car. After some time of filling out reports, talking to the police, with the help of a local French, ex-American student (who got married to a Danish girl while they lived in Holland), as interpreter. We taped our bonnet back onto the front, and proceeded at a very slow speed. Finally pulled up at a Motorway service garage and waited for the morning. They called out a mechanic who spent several hours checking the brakes before announcing he could not do anything there. We would have to be taken to his main workshop. End of the day arrived and a very large tow truck came and started stripping off our prop shaft to facilitate the towing of our home. This was followed by a hairy journey up the motorway in the opposite direction we were travelling. This resulted in us being taken to some sort of motorway graveyard. So, we set up the satellite to await the morning. It came! They didn't! At 4.30 pm, action at last! Seems the fluid I topped up was for the steering. The one for the brakes was over the front near side wheel. Thirty minutes and a lot of money later! We were on our way. An expensive lesson learned. I should just mention here. I took the motorhome to a respectable, well reputed, American Specialist to have a 30000 mile full service/check up and M.O.T. The results from the tests were:- Front brakes 30% worn, Rear Brakes 10% worn. Handbrake - hardly at all. (More on this later.) We took the ferry from Le Havre to Portsmouth for a 10 day trip. Guess what? Sure as eggs are eggs, (Sod's law again) we have to go through Custom's for a full check. The only place they didn't look was under the bed. (No! We had nothing under there either!) They even looked in the flight cases of our equipment. Still! You can't blame them! They are only doing their job aren't they? (What was that?) If I had a pound for everytime I was stopped by Custom's, I could afford to buy my cigarettes and wine in England. Never mind! Here we go! On with the Journey:-
Part Six :-