Trailer registration coming to the UK (1 Viewer)

[maxi77]

The letter from the Transport Minister specifically states that "there are already separate provisions for vehicles being towed in legislation. This provides that these are not classified as trailers."
It goes on to say "More generally, the Government has no desire to place undue burden on trailer users and as such, there will be no change in the broader requirements for users of leisure trailers following the introduction of the scheme.

Taking that with my understanding of Vienna Convention 68 which states that if a product is deemed legal in its country of origin (which it is) then it must be allowed free passage in all other UN Member states (note UN mandate which pre-dates and over-rules any EC interpretation)

Equally as you suggest A frames should be accepted but consistently the UK government has made no attempt to defend it's citizens who are harassed and fined for using UK legal systems in EU countries, citing that very conventions contents as justification for their inaction

 

[The Nomad]

The letter from the Transport Minister specifically states that "there are already separate provisions for vehicles being towed in legislation. This provides that these are not classified as trailers."
It goes on to say "More generally, the Government has no desire to place undue burden on trailer users and as such, there will be no change in the broader requirements for users of leisure trailers following the introduction of the scheme.

Taking that with my understanding of Vienna Convention 68 which states that if a product is deemed legal in its country of origin (which it is) then it must be allowed free passage in all other UN Member states (note UN mandate which pre-dates and over-rules any EC interpretation)

With respect, that argument is immediately fatally flawed.

To be allowed free access to/movement through other Vienna Convention, the vehicle concerned must be registered in a State which has itself adopted and implemented the requirements of the Vienna Convention.
There is NO RIGHT of access/travel if that is not the case. That's the whole point of the Vienna Convention!

One of those clear requirements is to have a formal national trailer registration scheme in place, as only "registered" trailers of that VC Member State have right of access to/through other VC Member States.

That is precisely why the UK Government is right now pushing through the Bill to get a UK national formal trailer registration system up and running before March next year; so that the UK can then apply at long last to be formally admitted as a VC Member State, and thus it's vehicles will still have right-of-passage through all those other VC Member countries once their present right-of-passage by virtue of being in the European Union disappears.

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

Again with respect - the letter shown to me is from the Department of Transport dated 19th March 2018 signed by Jesse Norman Under Secretary of State for Transport as a direct responce to a question asked of Chris Grayling Transport Minister

It states that the bill going through Parliament at the moment is for "commercial trailers over 3500 kg" which will exclude all "leisure" trailers under that weight but goes on to state that the current legislation provides that an A framed vehicle is not classed as a trailer.

Given the ruling by Mike Lowe from the Department of Transport last year when whole vehicle type approval raised its head I concur with his view that an A frame is neither a car or a trailer therefore does not need type approval in the same way - a car fitted with an A frame does not need registering

The whole point of the Vienna Convention 1968 was for the harmonised free passage of "any" goods as long at it was legal in its Country of origin. We can go down the old "never been tested in court" route if you wish but I accept the DoT's bullitin still listed today on their web site were they state in their oppinion A frames are legal in this Country as long as they meet all requirements of a trailer such as being able to reverse which is why we bought the T2T system

I suspect you will say you can't have your cake and eat it but that's what I see in black and white

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gus-lopez]

To comply with VC and enable access to all other VC agreement countries, your national registration system has to apply to ALL things designated as trailers.

Exactly .Only those 'registered ' will come under the Vienna convention.

It is only those that works be able to enter any other VC country.

Yes

The letter from the Transport Minister specifically states that "there are already separate provisions for vehicles being towed in legislation. This provides that these are not classified as trailers."
It goes on to say "More generally, the Government has no desire to place undue burden on trailer users and as such, there will be no change in the broader requirements for users of leisure trailers following the introduction of the scheme.

Taking that with my understanding of Vienna Convention 68 which states that if a product is deemed legal in its country of origin (which it is) then it must be allowed free passage in all other UN Member states (note UN mandate which pre-dates and over-rules any EC interpretation)

Quite right but if the trailers are not on the registration scheme they will have no rights abroad under the convention.

That is precisely why the UK Government is right now pushing through the Bill to get a UK national formal trailer registration system up and running before March next year; so that the UK can then apply at long last to be formally admitted as a VC Member State, and thus it's vehicles will still have right-of-passage through all those other VC Member countries once their present right-of-passage by virtue of being in the European Union disappears.

Yes ,only registered trailer will comply.

were they state in their oppinion A frames are legal in this Country as long as they meet all requirements of a trailer such as being able to reverse which is why we bought the T2T system

They are legal in the UK. Here they are classed as a car 'on tow' which is illegal. & as they won't/can't be registered as a seperate trailer in the UK they won't come under the convention.
If when stopped here you have no problem with the Guardia loading a tonne of manure in your 'trailer' then you will probably be ok.

 

[nicholsong]

How about getting the 'A' - frame car registered as a trailer on one plate and as a car on another plate and just switch the plates when one uncouples?

Just trying to think outside the Guardia's 'manure' box.

Geoff

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

Hi All

Not wanting to start a fight here - only the messenger - as said - the whole point of the Vienna Convention is to harmonise the free movement of goods between UN member states - it matters not as to the description of the goods as long as the Country of origin says they are legal. If the Department of Transport ruling is that an A frame is neither a car or a trailer then why should it need to be registered

We have been hung up on this for many years but it is only Spain who did not ratify the Vienna Convention agreement that has had any real enforcement against UK A frame travelers. As such I think we do our selves no favours talking down the A frame cause - indeed I think some of this flack may be projected by the trailer manufacturers self interests

I for one take this ruling on face value and will be down to Monaco for the GP and Italy for the Mille Miglia tow-car on tow as in previous years without a hitch (get it)

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[The Nomad]

Here is the actual wording in the Vienna Convention. The soon to be introduced UK trailer registration system must comply with this in order that the UK can ratify the Convention and become a VC " Contracting Party"
There's no ambiguity.


"1. (a) In order to be entitled to the benefits of this Convention, every motor vehicle in international traffic, and every trailer, other than a light trailer, coupled to a motor vehicle shall be registered by a Contracting Party or a subdivision thereof, and the driver of the motor vehicle shall carry a valid certificate of such registration issued either by a competent authority of such Contracting Party or subdivision thereof or on behalf and by authorization of such Contracting Party or subdivision thereof by an association duly empowered thereto by that Contracting Party or subdivision thereof.
This certificate, to be known as the registration certificate, shall bear the following particulars at least:
A serial number, to be known as the registration number, composed in the manner indicated in Annex 2 to this Convention; The date of first registration of the vehicle;
The full name and home address of the holder of the certificate; The name or the trademark of the maker of the vehicle;
The serial number of the chassis (the maker’s production or serial number). "
"The term “trailer” applies only to a trailer designed to be coupled to a motor vehicle."

"B. Braking of trailers
Without prejudice to the provisions of paragraph 17 (c) of this Annex, every trailer, with the exception of a light trailer, shall have brakes as follows:
(a) A service brake capable of slowing down the vehicle and of stopping it safely, rapidly and effectively, whatever its conditions of loading and whatever the upward or downward gradient of the road on which it is moving;
(b) A parking brake capable of holding the vehicle stationary, whatever its conditions of loading, on a noticeable upward or downward gradient, the operative surfaces of the brake being held in the braking position by a device whose action is purely mechanical.
This provision shall not apply to trailers which cannot be uncoupled from the drawing vehicle without the use of tools, provided that the requirements for parking brakes are satisfied for the combination of vehicles.
12. The devices providing the two braking functions (service and parking) may have parts in common.
13. The service brake shall act on all the wheels of the trailer. The braking action shall be properly distributed and synchronized among the various axles of the trailer.
14. The service brake shall be capable of being brought into action by the service brake control of the drawing vehicle; if, however, the permissible maximum mass of the trailer does not exceed 3,500 kg, the brakes may be such as to be brought into action, while the trailer is in motion, only by the trailer moving up on the drawing vehicle (overrun braking).
15. The service brake and the parking brake shall act on braking surfaces permanently connected to the wheels through components of adequate strength.
16. The braking devices shall be such that the trailer is stopped automatically if the coupling device breaks while the trailer is in motion. This requirement shall not apply, however, to trailers with only one axle or with two axles less than 1 m apart, provided that their permissible maximum mass does not exceed 1,500 kg and, except for semi-trailers, that they are fitted, in addition to the coupling device, with a secondary attachment."



(A "light trailer" is defined as being under 750kgs)

 

[gus-lopez]

If the Department of Transport ruling is that an A frame is neither a car or a trailer then why should it need to be registered

Because the Vienna convention states that to comply they must be registered . Those over 3,5T will be legal whilst those underwill be outside the legislation.

As such I think we do our selves no favours talking down the A frame cause - indeed I think some of this flack may be projected by the trailer manufacturers self interests

I speak as an engineer.
If you can explain to me how modifying an existing vehicles front cross member , so removing the Certificate of Conformity for that vehicle & rendering it illegal, unless replaced with a cross member homologated by way of Modified CoC , which does not exist & therefore the whole vehicle is now modified illegally under the anti tuning directive on modifications. If you can explain how what you are dragging along the road is legal I'm all ears ?

the whole point of the Vienna Convention is to harmonise the free movement of goods between UN member states - it matters not as to the description of the goods as long as the Country of origin says they are legal.

But, being under 3,5T ,you won't have one that the UK says is legal.They will be those actually registered. Additionally ,& referring to the governments spokesman , he hasn't actually stated that trailers under 3,5T are legal OUTSIDE the UK:

The Vienna convention & the Vienna convention of Treaties also states that all foreign nationals residing legally & registered in another European state have rights determined & set in stone & any alteration to a countries agreement ( Brexit) does not in any way affect them. the Uk government decided that didn't actually count under either convention or treaty. So I wouldn't set much store by relying on it for a trailer.

 

[busby]

Again with respect - the letter shown to me is from the Department of Transport dated 19th March 2018 signed by Jesse Norman Under Secretary of State for Transport as a direct responce to a question asked of Chris Grayling Transport Minister

It states that the bill going through Parliament at the moment is for "commercial trailers over 3500 kg" which will exclude all "leisure" trailers under that weight but goes on to state that the current legislation provides that an A framed vehicle is not classed as a trailer.

Given the ruling by Mike Lowe from the Department of Transport last year when whole vehicle type approval raised its head I concur with his view that an A frame is neither a car or a trailer therefore does not need type approval in the same way - a car fitted with an A frame does not need registering

The whole point of the Vienna Convention 1968 was for the harmonised free passage of "any" goods as long at it was legal in its Country of origin. We can go down the old "never been tested in court" route if you wish but I accept the DoT's bullitin still listed today on their web site were they state in their oppinion A frames are legal in this Country as long as they meet all requirements of a trailer such as being able to reverse which is why we bought the T2T system

I suspect you will say you can't have your cake and eat it but that's what I see in black and white

Will be interested to see a spanish Policemans opinion of the above,,BUSBY

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

Hi Nomad

Thank you for your interpretation of the application of the Vienna Convention which seems to be at odds with what the Transport Ministry are saying - with your permission I'll get my local tow-bar people to forward this and ask for the Departments clarification

Hello Gus Lopez - again without trying to start a fight - the feedback put in the public domain from Mike Lowe Senior Engineer International Standards Division at the UK D.o.T when the whole vehicle type approval debarcel kicked of was that an A frame was neither a car nor a trailer therefore did not need type approval Construction and use legislation allow for "in service" modifications which in this case are set out in the Departments fact sheet "A" Frames and Dollies which is available on their web site today

Finally Bushby - couldn't agree more - we all know Spain was the only country not to ratify Vienna 1968 and has since brought out its own laws on towing - My feedback is that this is still very regionalised and many Brits still tow without impunity but at their own risk

 

[gus-lopez]

Hello Gus Lopez - again without trying to start a fight - the feedback put in the public domain from Mike Lowe Senior Engineer International Standards Division at the UK D.o.T when the whole vehicle type approval debarcel kicked of was that an A frame was neither a car nor a trailer therefore did not need type approval Construction and use legislation allow for "in service" modifications which in this case are set out in the Departments fact sheet "A" Frames and Dollies which is available on their web site today

Yes but that applies to the actual A frame. Not the modifications to the front of the towed vehicle cross member which is what negates the CoC of the modified vehicle.

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

Gus - the statement from the DoT on whole vehicle type approval (which was copied to this web site at the time)states that it only applies to manufacturers whilst the vehicle is being built - once it has met its required specification and been certified fit for sale then it comes under construction and use legislation which covers things like MoT etc and allows for "in-service" modifications. Clearly this has to be done in a responscible and audited way and in the case of tow-cars - in line with the DoT's fact sheet where they state towing with an A frame is legal providing the whole package of car and frame meet the requirments as set out

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[The Nomad]

Hi Nomad

Thank you for your interpretation of the application of the Vienna Convention which seems to be at odds with what the Transport Ministry are saying - with your permission I'll get my local tow-bar people to forward this and ask for the Departments clarification

Hello Gus Lopez - again without trying to start a fight - the feedback put in the public domain from Mike Lowe Senior Engineer International Standards Division at the UK D.o.T when the whole vehicle type approval debarcel kicked of was that an A frame was neither a car nor a trailer therefore did not need type approval Construction and use legislation allow for "in service" modifications which in this case are set out in the Departments fact sheet "A" Frames and Dollies which is available on their web site today

Finally Bushby - couldn't agree more - we all know Spain was the only country not to ratify Vienna 1968 and has since brought out its own laws on towing - My feedback is that this is still very regionalised and many Brits still tow without impunity but at their own risk

Sorry but that is not correct. I don't know where that Old Wives Tale originated, nor why it's still swilling about.

Loads and loads of United Nations member States countries did not at the time, nor since, sign up to the Vienna Convention .. Including the UK!

Spain signed up to the Vienna Convention. The only part that Spain, along with several other signatory countries, opted out of when it signed up to the VC is article 52 (the arbitration Council mechanism for dispute resolution between Member States).

This may help understanding:
https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/Conv_road_traffic_EN.pdf

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/CP_Vienna_convention.pdf

 

[maxi77]

Hi Nomad


Finally Bushby - couldn't agree more - we all know Spain was the only country not to ratify Vienna 1968 and has since brought out its own laws on towing - My feedback is that this is still very regionalised and many Brits still tow without impunity but at their own risk

Vienna or not Spain is not the only country to outlaw the towing of cars, it is also illegal here in Portugal which is one of the reasons all Portuguese car insurance includes a recovery cover. They do tend to ignore foreign plated vehicles under the too difficult category but are getting more adventurous these days as their normal sources of fine income are drying up. It is also worth noting that whilst the GNR traffic units are not as well equipped many are now able to access central databases where unpaid fines are recorded

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

Hi Nomad

Now we are rearly splitting hairs - when I said Spain did not ratify the agreement - what is ment is that Spain insisted that it could interpret and apply the convention as it saw fit without it being able to be challenged in an International Court of Justice. In other words they did not ratifiy the full agreement as others did

I think a more pressing need is to get the correct interpretation of your statement so do I have your permission to forward this for clarification

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[busby]

Hi Nomad

Thank you for your interpretation of the application of the Vienna Convention which seems to be at odds with what the Transport Ministry are saying - with your permission I'll get my local tow-bar people to forward this and ask for the Departments clarification

Hello Gus Lopez - again without trying to start a fight - the feedback put in the public domain from Mike Lowe Senior Engineer International Standards Division at the UK D.o.T when the whole vehicle type approval debarcel kicked of was that an A frame was neither a car nor a trailer therefore did not need type approval Construction and use legislation allow for "in service" modifications which in this case are set out in the Departments fact sheet "A" Frames and Dollies which is available on their web site today

Finally Bushby - couldn't agree more - we all know Spain was the only country not to ratify Vienna 1968 and has since brought out its own laws on towing - My feedback is that this is still very regionalised and many Brits still tow without impunity but at their own risk

Same with any law including speeding etc,,law of averages means that some break the laws and get away with it and there are others that would get caught..Think i would be in the latter group,,BUSBY

 

[The Nomad]

Hi Nomad

Now we are rearly splitting hairs - when I said Spain did not ratify the agreement - what is ment is that Spain insisted that it could interpret and apply the convention as it saw fit without it being able to be challenged in an International Court of Justice. In other words they did not ratifiy the full agreement as others did

I think a more pressing need is to get the correct interpretation of your statement so do I have your permission to forward this for clarification

You said "we all know Spain was the only country not to ratify Vienna 1968 and has since brought out its own laws on towing.."

That's simply wrong. It isn't true. It's false.
Compare the list of UN Member States to the list of signatories to the Vienna Convention.
Spain SIGNED the Vienna Convention.
The United Kingdom, and lots of other UN countries didn't at the time, and have not since either.

All countries have their own national laws on towing.
Spain is no different to France or the UK or Germany or Portugal or Italy or any other country in that regard.

 

[Ridgeway]

Pretty simple rules here, if it has wheels and does more than 25kmh under it's own power or other wise then it needs:

1) registration plate/s
2) insurance
3) road tax
4) autoroute tax if it goes on the autoroute
5) MOT

My Ifor Williams P7 trailer is officially "not for use" here as IW couldn't provide the correct paperwork when we imported it so it has remained unusable for 13yrs now, we do use it within our village for garden waste a few times p/year.

Surely registration plates = insurance policy = tax = MOT etc......

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

Hi Ridgeway - fortunately we've not got that far - yet - and if you beleave the resent statement from our Transport Minister he says he "has no desire to add undue burden on "leisure" trailer users "

 

[Ridgeway]

Slippery slope if you ask me...

 

[maxi77]

Hi Ridgeway - fortunately we've not got that far - yet - and if you beleave the resent statement from our Transport Minister he says he "has no desire to add undue burden on "leisure" trailer users "

That just means that whilst he would prefer not to he will do it if it is expedient. One of the real truths in this world is that you can tell a politician is lying if his lips move. The terrible reality is they are now discovering just how much work the simple process of leaving the EU will entail. Of course they do not want to have to do most of it but in reality they will have to do most of it. The chancellor is preparing us for tax rises, and crossing the channel may well become shall we say 'interesting' especially if the arch brexiteers get their preferred 'no deal' solution

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}