Topic only for residents of EU countries(Not UK)

[nicholsong]

I do not want this to turn into a Brexit thread.

I have a specific question for Residents of EU countries who have residency permits but not Citizenship/Passports.

What rights of travel do your Residents Permits convey on you within the EU/EEA/Schengen Area?

More importantly what restrictions are there on numbers of days in other counties?

I am looking at several countries for Residence, but there are restrictions on their Permits for travel even within Schengen.

Thanks to responders.

Geoff


EDIT Title should have read 'countres not counties but cannot edit.

 

[Augusta08]

I have a UK passport but a French Carte de Sejour, I don't believe there are any restrictions on travel within the EU. I am spending 3 months in Spain over the winter.

HTH

Gerry

 

[gus-lopez]

All permanent residency from any EU state should confer the same rights as a national of the country .It is just that you do not have the passport.
After an no deal out then here we appear to be remaining the same but moving to another EU country, no one appears to have any idea about.
The travelling isn't a problem as I have the same rights conferred on me as a national would have & as far as I can see as I'm in a spanish van with a spanish licence & how are any of them going to know that I'm British unless stopped? Which I have never been ,except in the UK.

 

[nicholsong]

All permanent residency from any EU state should confer the same rights as a national of the country .It is just that you do not have the passport.
After an no deal out then here we appear to be remaining the same but moving to another EU country, no one appears to have any idea about.
The travelling isn't a problem as I have the same rights conferred on me as a national would have & as far as I can see as I'm in a spanish van with a spanish licence & how are any of them going to know that I'm British unless stopped? Which I have never been ,except in the UK.

Unfortunately that does not appear to be correct, at least for Polish Permanent Residents.

I quote the Polish Government website :

'A permanent residence permit entitles the foreigner to travel to other Schengen Area countries for up to 90 days in a 180-day period for tourism purposes (

The same restrictions apply to Andorran Passport holders - albeit Andorra is not EU.

I wonder whether the differences are between the older EU Member States and those which joined later, for which stricter rules were applied.

I need an experienced Polish Immigration Lawyer, but difficult to find - maybe nobody wants to come here. I do not want to pay some inexperienced one to look at the laws that I can look at myself.

Geoff

 

[gus-lopez]

A permanent residence permit entitles the foreigner to travel to other Schengen Area countries for up to 90 days in a 180-day period for tourism purposes (

Yes which is what the actual rules are even for a Polish national or a spanish national.They are not stating anything different.
The EU rules are 90 days & then you automatically become a resident in another state. Whether you are a permanent resident or a national.
The permanent residency rules are that after 5 years & you apply & are granted it it is "without conditions" https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm
I think you are over reading it Geoff.

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[Puddleduck]

I understood it was 90 days but that the chances of being caught if you overstayed were slight.

I am NOT advocating that you break the rules.

 

[Ridgeway]

What rights of travel do your Residents Permits convey on you within the EU/EEA/Schengen Area?

Non !

An ID card allows you to pass from country to country within Schengen and your passport also allows travel outside of Schengen and right of application for visas

 

[gus-lopez]

You will see here in the EU freedom of movement/residence directive that in 'key points ' it states 90 days ( 3 months) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:l33152

You might have to click on 'En' again

 

[Ridgeway]

I quote the Polish Government website :

'A permanent residence permit entitles the foreigner to travel to other Schengen Area countries for up to 90 days in a 180-day period for tourism purposes (


Geoff

Are you sure about the "permanent residence permit" part ? i ask as it's not normal to be classed as "permanent" whilst having XYZ permits that most countries offer, "permanence" is normally a status only used once a person is nationalised.

Whilst it's not regular EU (Switzerland) we've been here almost 15yrs and are NOT classed as permanent. I'd double check that there's no difference between permanent and non permanent, could easily be the same but worth checking.

 

[gus-lopez]

Are you sure about the "permanent residence permit" part ? i ask as it's not normal to be classed as "permanent" whilst having XYZ permits that most countries offer, "permanence" is normally a status only used once a person is nationalised.

Whilst it's not regular EU (Switzerland) we've been here almost 15yrs and are NOT classed as permanent. I'd double check that there's no difference between permanent and non permanent, could easily be the same but worth checking.

As an EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years. If you fulfil this requirement, you can apply for a permanent residence document, which confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.

This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory.

But it can be useful when dealing with the authorities or for administrative formalities. The authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

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[Ridgeway]

As an EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years. If you fulfil this requirement, you can apply for a permanent residence document, which confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.

This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory.

But it can be useful when dealing with the authorities or for administrative formalities. The authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

I think there's 2 things here. I believe the OP is asking about if he moves to Poland now, ie it would be in 5yrs when he reaches that status and secondly the 5yrs only gives you an automatic right TO APPLY, the country will decide if you qualify. Still not sure this helps the OP as in any case the status may be irrelevant regarding his question.

 

[Augusta08]

I think the simple answer is; if you haven't done it by now, you're too frigging late.

A Carte de Sejour requires you to have 5 years Tax d' Habitation behind you. So do many of the others.

However on the bright side I doubt there's much interets in chasing down individuals, unless you've been naughty in some way.

 

[gus-lopez]

I think there's 2 things here. I believe the OP is asking about if he moves to Poland now, ie it would be in 5yrs when he reaches that status and secondly the 5yrs only gives you an automatic right TO APPLY, the country will decide if you qualify. Still not sure this helps the OP as in any case the status may be irrelevant regarding his question.

No you have misread the first line. You acquire it automatically after 5 years.
The same as after 90 consecutive days in any EU state you are deemed ,automatically, to be a resident. It has always been this way.

As an EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years.
Many countries,like Spain, require you to register for the registration certificate after 90 days This certifies that you are a registered foreigner listed on the foreigners registration list. Yes there are requirements that you must meet now , income, private health care for under retirement age ,etc; but even if you cannot comply they cannot ask you to leave .Nor can you be fined as there is no offence of not being registered , the offence is "failing to apply"
Assuming you get registered then renewal is automatic , no further questions can be asked nor requirements to meet. At 5 years you can apply to be registered as "permanent" it cannot be denied.
apart from 3 things terrorism, offences against the state & something to do with being a carrier of contagious diseases, there is no way of being thrown out. You are classed as a Spaniard without the passport. After 10 years even the above disappear & you are virtually impregnable.
If you are right & @nicholsong wants to attain Polish residency he has already stated in the past that he is required to live there for 2 years before applying. This is contrary to EU rules so unless there is something for the newer members it might well be a good idea for him to ask the question directly of the EU or the Solvit system as to whether it is correct.
This appears to be all that is required to register after 90 days in Poland.https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...ies/registering-residence/poland/index_en.htm

 

[Burgo]

Gus López has pretty well covered it. For chapter and verse you need to refer to the EU site for the country(ies) you have in mind. For example, for Spain in order to stay legally for over 3 months see: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...ties/registering-residence/spain/index_en.htm and associated pages.
You will see, and hear, a lot of barrack room lawyers saying differently, and there is, as always, a tendency to hear only what you want to hear, but at the end of the day the law is quite clear, and clearly written, on the Europa.eu site for all of us to read.

 

[Burgo]

As an adjunct, to see the rules for other countries see: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...ormalities/registering-residence/index_en.htm.
Interesting to see the requirements for entrants to the UK are somewhat more lax than most other countries. I wonder if that would encourage immigrants to go there, despite the appaling weather?

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[Camdoon]

...
Interesting to see the requirements for entrants to the UK are somewhat more lax than most other countries. I wonder if that would encourage immigrants to go there, despite the appaling weather?

There was uproar when it was suggested we did not let in immigrants with contagious diseases which the Spanish preclude.

 

[jumar]

Interesting thread.

 

[gus-lopez]

There was uproar when it was suggested we did not let in immigrants with contagious diseases which the Spanish preclude.

not just the spanish.it is in one of the links from Eu referring to world health organisation list.So available for any state to refuse or expel.

 

[Camdoon]

not just the spanish.it is in one of the links from Eu referring to world health organisation list.So available for any state to refuse or expel.

Farage got into big trouble when he suggested we should not allow those with the contagious disease AIDS into the country.

 

[nicholsong]

No you have misread the first line. You acquire it automatically after 5 years.
The same as after 90 consecutive days in any EU state you are deemed ,automatically, to be a resident. It has always been this way.

As an EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years.
Many countries,like Spain, require you to register for the registration certificate after 90 days This certifies that you are a registered foreigner listed on the foreigners registration list. Yes there are requirements that you must meet now , income, private health care for under retirement age ,etc; but even if you cannot comply they cannot ask you to leave .Nor can you be fined as there is no offence of not being registered , the offence is "failing to apply"
Assuming you get registered then renewal is automatic , no further questions can be asked nor requirements to meet. At 5 years you can apply to be registered as "permanent" it cannot be denied.
apart from 3 things terrorism, offences against the state & something to do with being a carrier of contagious diseases, there is no way of being thrown out. You are classed as a Spaniard without the passport. After 10 years even the above disappear & you are virtually impregnable.
If you are right & @nicholsong wants to attain Polish residency he has already stated in the past that he is required to live there for 2 years before applying. This is contrary to EU rules so unless there is something for the newer members it might well be a good idea for him to ask the question directly of the EU or the Solvit system as to whether it is correct.
This appears to be all that is required to register after 90 days in Poland.https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...ies/registering-residence/poland/index_en.htm

Gus

You seem to be the one with the most definitive answers on this topic.

First of all I want to distiguish between the requirements to register after 90 days in any one country and the right to remain in the Schengen Area for a non EEA Citizen entering and exiting the Schengen Area, but not staying in any one country for > 90 days.. Obviously for anyone within the Area circulation is unchecked, but entry and exit is checked.

Gus, you stated (in bold above) there is no offence of not registering, but in the link at the bottom of your post it states that there is a Fine for not registering, at least in Poland.

What is Solvit please?

I am having great difficulty finding an experienced immigration lawyer in Poland, but am persevering with international companies, who may use such lawyers' services - FCO list is from 2014. I will report back.

Geoff

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[gus-lopez]

For some non EEa/EU i,e U.S. or aussie no visa would be required ( they come from tourist visa exempt countries) & they are allowed visa-free access to the Schengen states for 90 days in any 180-day period.
This allows entry in any country & free travel through all or any other eu country as well as exit from elsewhere.
Once you have left you cannot return for 6 months.

I think it is the way that the Polish have written it. If you do not register you still cannot be expelled . You can be fined for failing to apply/not registering.
If the country requires you to register & you apply & cannot meet the criteria ,you still cannot be expelled nor can you then be fined for failing to register as you applied.
It is actually a nonsensical situation a bit like a magic roundabout. Even experienced lawyers struggle to make any sense of it.
Here there are 2 schools of thought those that apply knowing they cannot fulfill the requirements then retain the failed application to ward off any attempt to fine them & those that don't bother & if fined will pay it as they know they cannot be expelled or fined again.

Solvit; http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm
Although I don't think they cover this but if you ask & they don't they usually point you to the EU department that does.

** This is the one you want; https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/ **

 

[nicholsong]

Gus

You are being very helpful. I had not heard of Solvit or the website you quoted.

As you say

"For some non EEa/EU i,e U.S. or aussie no visa would be required ( they come from tourist visa exempt countries) & they are allowed visa-free access to the Schengen states for 90 days in any 180-day period.
This allows entry in any country & free travel through all or any other eu country as well as exit from elsewhere.
Once you have left you cannot return for 6 months."

In the abscence of any UK/EU agreement otherwise the above would apply to all UK Residents, including UK MH long-term tourers.

The crux of the problem is not staying within Schengen, but entry/exit.

I am sttill trying to find a law firm in Poland familiar with the operation of Polish Immigration. I had hoped that 3 international forms here who have non-EU staff could help but they all seem to be on a long w/e today.

I would prefer to discuss details of my circumstances confidentially on a 'Conversation' on here or via e-mail. I will start a conversation.

Geoff

 

[gus-lopez]

In the abscence of any UK/EU agreement otherwise the above would apply to all UK Residents, including UK MH long-term tourers.

Yes

The crux of the problem is not staying within Schengen, but entry/exit.

Yes.

 

[nicholsong]

For some non EEa/EU i,e U.S. or aussie no visa would be required ( they come from tourist visa exempt countries) & they are allowed visa-free access to the Schengen states for 90 days in any 180-day period.
This allows entry in any country & free travel through all or any other eu country as well as exit from elsewhere.
Once you have left you cannot return for 6 months.

**

Just thinking again about the 90 days in a 180-day period, I would interpret that as meaning that once one has used up 90 days then there are another 90 days when you are not allowed in Schengen, not 6 months.

After that another 180-day period would start during which one could be within Schengen for a further 90 days.

Your comment on my reasoning please.

Geoff

 

[Minxy]

Just thinking again about the 90 days in a 180-day period, I would interpret that as meaning that once one has used up 90 days then there are another 90 days when you are not allowed in Schengen, not 6 months.

After that another 180-day period would start during which one could be within Schengen for a further 90 days.

Your comment on my reasoning please.

Geoff

That's how I read it too, it will be a 'rolling' period rather than a set '6 months' I should think, but it could also mean that once you have used up your 90 days you cannot return for 6 months regardless, so it could be stay there for 90 days, then leave for 180 days and start again ...

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[ukbill]

No one really knows,