'TOADs'...'A' frames Proposed New Regulations ?! (1 Viewer)

[jhorsf]

HHUUUU HUMMMMMM

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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_TiCKHSAQ[/ame]


wonder if you can a frame it?

 

[slobadoberbob]

It could be police or a VOSA road side inspection

As I see it an awful lot of people use A frames in the UK without any problems.

Clearly the police don't seem to have an issue with them.

If they are technically illegal then the technicality is clearly lost on traffic cops.

Does anyone know of anyone being prosecuted in the UK for using an A frame?

Firstly we do not know the number of people that use A frames illegally (that is what they are doing)... Police could deal with the matter, but I suspect it will be a VOSA road side check that will collar someone.. Recently VOSA crushed two American Limo due to breaches in the law... Look on VOSA site clear as day.. It is only a matter of time as I have said before someone in the UK will be prosecuted. It is illegal in a lot of European countries like Spain which has laws relating to A frames.

There is no Technically about it.. it is within the RTA 1968 and the Construction and Use regulations which is law as an SI (Statutory Instrument).

Why do you need to know if someone has be prosecuted? if it is the law then it is the law.. do you ignore red traffic lights? it is the law you stop at them.. do you question that issue?

Bob

 

[johnp10]

If the law cant cope with new technology then there will be no progress
therefore it should be changed. The brandy thing though a good idea
doesnt fall into new technology.
When they invent cars that fly............will they still have to stop at traffic lights on the ground ? Things change .

barry

It's not new technology, Barry.
Just technology which doesnt meet standards.
Good idea or not is just a matter of perception. If it dont meet requirements it aint as safe as it could be...falls into the "not" for me.
Just an opinion.

Flying cars and traffic lights......dont be ridiculous!
Of course they will have to stop!

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[slobadoberbob]

I presume you use your Brakes Barry?

If the law cant cope with new technology then there will be no progress
therefore it should be changed. The brandy thing though a good idea
doesnt fall into new technology.
I go back to what I have already said..........do toads work ? can they be made safe..are they better?

Lets face it positioning 4 wheels on top of another 4 wheels then towing it
is hardly progress...its 4 wheels too many !!

When they invent cars that fly............will they still have to stop at traffic lights on the ground ? Things change .

barry

I presume you use your brakes Barry? The reason why the old Department for Transport (now VOSA).. had these SI in the first place was to define what was a trailer .. correct 4 wheels on the road.. all with brakes if over the unbrakes weight of 750 Kgs... So to save having a lw for every twist and turn the SI covered vehicles that were towed. As some toads only have rear wheel brakeing on a cable it would have less brake power than those on a trailer with 4 brakes wheels.. So unless the makers of toads.. and it is them you should be complaining to make a proper bit of equipment.. the law stands. The toad is not legal as it is classed as a trailer and does not meet the regulations.. construction and use. Simples... get the toads sorted and then they will be proper trailers. or what do you think we should call them??? toads???? just can see that in legislation .. but as the law does not change as you might like Barry.. you either have to adapt or face the possibility one day of the yellow jacket waving you in to a lay by and doing a full inspection.. not just a fine.. the American Limos were ceased and then crushed under the powers VOSA have.

Sobering thought that your toad might get crushed.. oh yes so could the motorhome as it is all running under one registration number.. no one has thought about that.

Bob:Blush:

 

[slobadoberbob]

TThe differance is

What's the differance between the brakes on an A frame or a trailer?

The differance is...........

A trailer over 750 kgs has to have working brakes on all wheels on the road... those brakes have to work in both directions.. often called over run brakes.. i.e when reversed they release the forward action of the brakes... much like a caravan brake.

A toad cannot be reversed as it does not have an over run brake system. it also is unlikely it will have all 4 wheels brakes and if it does the servo requirements can drop as the engine is not running to boost the system.. there are some elctronic brakes on American RV's that will control all 4 wheels of the car. But the normal UK toad is not made like the ones in the US of A.

That is the very basic version of the issues.. But it is a very complex area.

Bob

 

[scotjimland]

Please don't shoot the messenger, I've only copy pasted..... Perhaps someone would like to challenge this statement by CarATow ? (see my highlight foot of document)

THE LEGALS!

For those who like the idea of towing a car behind a motorhome - the good news continues.
For those who've always been against it - the continuing good news is probably not so good.

Over the years there has been a great deal of rumour and misunderstanding concerning the legality of towing frames.
As the proprietor of CAR-A-TOW and designer of the Car-A-Tow Towing Frame System, I, along with stalwart motorhomer Terry Nash of W. Sussex, (I actually think that Terrier Nash would be more appropriate), managed to bring the controversy to a satisfactory conclusion a few years ago now.
He (Terry) had eloquently badgered every government department associated with motor vehicles and trailers, to finally get them to give us some definitive answers back in Jan/Feb 2004.

The Department for Transport stated :
" When an A frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. a motorhome) we believe the A frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer "
" We believe the use of A frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met".
At that time, The D f T expressed concern about a car's braking performance without its engine running.
" if the braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required during towing to meet the required braking efficiency"

At CAR-A-TOW, we are only concerned with small cars, suitable for towing behind a motorhome, generally up to around 800/1100kg kerb weight, and fitted with servo assisted brakes, (vacuum assistance).
CAR-A-TOW carried out braking performance tests on a broad range of modern small cars, he results have proven conclusively these cars not only meet the required performance for trailers - 50% braking force in relation to its maximum weight - but in most cases far exceed this requirement, without any vacuum assistance from a servo.
An important point to consider:
On a small car, a Vacuum Servo does not increase braking effect at the wheels, it is designed to make the brake pedal easier to push for all shapes and sizes of driver - less effort to achieve the required performance. A 6ft 6inch weightlifter would have no problem operating the brake pedal on a Ford Fiesta without the assistance of a vacuum servo.
Trailer overrun braking (inertia brakes), as fitted to the CAR-A-TOW system, relies upon the momentum of the weight of the trailer to exert force on the overrun coupling to activate the simple lever to pull on the brake cable to operate the trailer's brakes.

If the motorhome brakes gently the trailer brakes are hardly required, if the motorhome brakes hard the weight of the car/trailer exerts it's force on the overrun and brakes hard - proportional braking without the vacuum servo assistance.
A further point raised by The D f T ; the ability of the motorhome/car combination to be reversed without operating a manual mechanism.
Contrary to common belief, the regulations do not state that braked trailers must be fitted specifically with " auto reverse brakes ".

The D f T remind us :
" From 1st October 1988 the inertia braking system (overrun) is required to allow the trailer to be reversed with the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically "

Although we understand the meaning, the regulation does not state specifically 'auto reverse brakes', as commonly fitted to modern trailers and caravans, but requires a system to enable a trailer to be reversed without the need to manually operate a mechanism.
There are specific regulations concerning this requirement and the Car-A-Tow frame system can meet the requirements as stated in UN-ECE Regulation No. 13, Annexe 12, Page 137, Paragraph 3:4 and 3:5, providing the system is fitted and operated correctly and is in good condition.

The D f T state :
" Where technical requirements are mandated then the burden falls to manufacturers to ensure products meet the requirements "
We are happy that the Car-A-Tow system does comply and does meet the requirements as stated, this has been demonstrated to various experts and can be repeated as often as required.
Yet another misunderstanding is that 'trailers' may not be fitted with hydraulic brakes, the correct regulation is that trailers may not use a hydraulic parking brake. Cars are fitted with a mechanical parking brake (handbrake) and providing this handbrake lever can be operated from the ground, i.e. with feet on the ground, this handbrake conforms to trailer requirements and is completely legal.
The D f T have also stated :
" The trailer would not have to be tested to establish that it did meet the requirements - no test facilities are available" !!!!!
The D f T has reminded us continually over the years that they do not have the final say. Whilst they have now stated their belief that A frame towing is legal (after years of suggesting it was illegal), they also remind us:
" it is for the courts to make definitive interpretations of the law"
We are not aware of a court expressing a view either way. The main point here, in relation to towing a car behind a motorhome, is that we now have a statement from the D f T that they believe a car on a towing frame is in legislation etc etc a trailer providing it conforms to all other regulations relating to trailers.

If a British court was forced to question the basic principle of whether or not a car is considered to be a trailer, when connected to a towing vehicle with a towing frame, it is our understanding that a court would look to the relevant government department - The Department for Transport - for guidance and opinion, that department has already stated they believe it is classified in legislation as a trailer and it is legal.

We rest our case !!
So……. After all those years of batting this backwards and forwards with the D f T (formerly The D of T), where does this leave us ?

The D f T have confirmed they now believe that towing a car with an A frame is legal provided etc etc
We have proof that we can meet trailer braking requirements and performance although
The D f T have stated that testing is not required and
The D f T have stated that no test facility is available anyway
We have a conforming parking brake
We have a conforming breakaway system (for cars below 1500kg)
The lighting conforms
We carry the registration plate of the towing vehicle (covering the rear plate of the car)
That's it then, can we now stop all the nonsense both spoken and printed, about the so called 'A frame debate', hook your car on the back and just enjoy your holidays !

Alan Bee
CAR-A-TOW
[HI]
Anyone who wishes to challenge any points made here, is invited and welcome to contact TOWCentre Ltd with details of which aspect of A frame towing they consider is not legal.[/HI]

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[Drew]

I'm afraid until the law makers can be convinced that the law should be changed then things will stay as they are, right or wrong. If European law makes towing a car illegal then you have to convince you MEP to bring a motion and they have to convince the rest of the European parliament that the law should be changed. People make huge amounts of money from lobbying MPs and MEPs, want to pay a lobbyist? It may be a stupid law that says a TOAD is illegal but it is still a law that has to be obeyed, unless you like paying fines or going to prison.
Personally I think it makes sense to tow a car behind a MH, better than towing a van behind a car in mho.:thumb:

 

[Larrynwin]

Looks like Bob versus Towcentre Ltd.

 

[johnp10]

Jim,
A good lawyer could make that statement say anything he wanted it to.
I'm no lawyer. but reading it twice I read two different things.
It's interesting to see the phrases like " as long as braking requirements are met" (paraphrased) At no point does the statement say that all current requirements are met, so surely there is still a cloud?
As stated, the courts and neither VOSA nor the Police are the body who will at some point decide on the legality of these things.
Bearing in mind the courts are there to interpret the legislators' INTENTIONS, they will first interpret the LETTER of the law, which currently gives no actual statement as to the legality of toad type equipment.
It will be an interesting thing to see when this can of worms is eventually opened.
I see a great gnashing of teeth and shelling out of many shillings.

We'll see.

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[Snowbird]

Please don't shoot the messenger, I've only copy pasted..... Perhaps someone would like to challenge this statement by CarATow ? (see my highlight foot of document)




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I think that just about sums it up so can this be the end of it.

If anyone is in any doubt am sure Caratow will be more than happy to argue the point.

Once again live and let live.:thumb:

 

[johnp10]

Heads and sand comes to mind.

 

[beachcaster]

Please don't shoot the messenger, I've only copy pasted..... Perhaps someone would like to challenge this statement by CarATow ? (see my highlight foot of document)




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Well thats sorted then ....thank goodness for that ..
lets move onto Dale Farm...


barry

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[harryoxford2]

I think there is a clear case of Duty of Care requirement. Any maker would need to be able to prove that there product is legal .. if they cannot then they do so at there peril..as in costs and damages. Product law will very likely cover this issue.

If thinking of buying one.. just ask for them to show you how it is reversed and turned at the same time... It will be interesting to see them demonstrate it.. I do mean as from when the motorhome or RV comes to a stop and is immediately reversed..

Anyway I have had my say many times on this subject, I know the law, I made my choice and went for the more expensive route of a full blown 4 wheel brakes trailer to carry my car... I do not worry about France, Spain or anywhere else as I am legal.. simples.

Love the idea of Harry re the smart pushing the motorhome...... only snag is that for the modern Smart you cannot get a street legal tow ball (talking about towing with the smart here) but I doubt it could have one fitted at the front either.. but a great idea.. like it.

Bob:thumb:

I dont have a tow ball when pushing my rv with the smart car as I recon it may buckle the smart car chasis, but being incredably clever I tested a number of cushioning devices, what came out the best was a thick JAM BUTTY, but please please remember to spead thick sticky jam on the outsides of the butty as well as the middle as that adhesion is required when braking downhill...otherwise the rv will just roll away out of control.....my goodness do I really have to explain what is so obvious in such detail. hummph.

 

[vwalan]

hi, its quite clear that many aframes cant meet the braking requirement. on a trailer the shoe mecanism allows reversing even though the hitch is try ing to apply the brakes. an aframe can meet the requirements but not using the sliding hitch that many fit. as for abroad if it as the required brake operation then i would quite happily fight it in court. air or another system can be used to meet the required regs. using the brake hydraulics to work it .as in other systems that have eu aproval. unfortunately there isnt many uk systems that meet full eu aproval. . i can also go as far as if you have a legal question on transport or driving licences i see no grey area,s. all the rules to abide by are very easy to understand and follow.
bob is almost right in aframes being illegal, but they can meet the requirements . i just think his lack of mechanical knowledge as let him think its not possible.
cost could make this prohibitive for many and the inconveniance in the original set up. the brakes can be made to work on all four wheels ,and will be able to be reversed as you ont be pressing the brakes in the towing vehicle. anybody reqyuiring more info please aski will try to elaborate if needed. cheers alan.

 

[Larrynwin]

I have a car a tow a frame and can reverse a few yards with it without the brakes on the toad operating. Cannot steer but that issue hasn't been mentioned.

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[johnp10]

I give in!
We have a full forum of gifted amateurs, with some gifted in Google.
Mechanical knowledge is not an issue here, just compliance in as much as "do these toad mechanisms meet C&U Regs or not?
Generally not.
I dont need to know HOW something works or meets requirements, I dont care. I just need to know THAT it works.


My advice for free:
1. Keep your heads in the sand, it's warm there.
2. Continue to make up the rules as you go along.
3. Continue to believe if it suits you its ok.
4. Dont listen to advice regarding anything.
5. If you google half a story you will get half a story: read the SIs in full, but learn to
interpret them first.
6. Dispute the issue with the courts eventually, you'll have fun.
7. People like Bob (no offence, Bob) make a fortune from people who didnt listen in the
first place.

Last post on this topic, REALLY bored now.
Ta ta.

 

[vwalan]

there is no distance written anywhere about how far you should be able to reverse it. but if you have a sliding hitch and try reversing up a hill then the brakes will come on on the trailer .thats how it works . as bob says years ago you were allowed to get out and fit a collar into the slide or even drop a catch to stopth trailer brakes coming on.
off topic abit . i recently talked with a vosa manager . he did say many things are under constant review . at ther moment it really is about body bags . if things dont seem to keep cropping up in this way they turn a blind eye . mind this attitude can change overnight.
there are several issues going on at the moment . i was told that the electric brakes on many 5er,s are under scruttiny at this moment . the american system doesnt have eu approval . they know that many dont meet eu regs but have let it go by just to save the costs in taking so many to court. the lack of body bags could mean they lose . so they let it slip by.

 

[Chris]

Firstly we do not know the number of people that use A frames illegally (that is what they are doing)... Police could deal with the matter, but I suspect it will be a VOSA road side check that will collar someone.. Recently VOSA crushed two American Limo due to breaches in the law... Look on VOSA site clear as day.. It is only a matter of time as I have said before someone in the UK will be prosecuted. It is illegal in a lot of European countries like Spain which has laws relating to A frames.

There is no Technically about it.. it is within the RTA 1968 and the Construction and Use regulations which is law as an SI (Statutory Instrument).

Why do you need to know if someone has be prosecuted? if it is the law then it is the law.. do you ignore red traffic lights? it is the law you stop at them.. do you question that issue?

Bob

I asked the question because I was interested in the answer,

You took quite a few paragraphs to explain that you do not know how many (if any) people have been prosecuted.

The law is indeed the law. I don't jump red lights because the police prosecute you for that. There are though countless other laws which are just not enforced which is currently the case with this law.

It might well be the case that the police/VOSA begin to enforce. When and if they do it will hardly be crime of the century I suspect.

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[pappajohn]

all this has no impact on me whatsoever....

running at 7500kg and having a C1E licence i have 4 choices.

1...ignore the law

2...dont tow (current option :Sad

3 ...motorbike and trailer

4...find a car/trailer combi under 750kg (yeah right, flying officer oink !)

 

[vwalan]

hi pappa you could sell the rv and get a suitable vehicle to allow you totow. or get a fiver you know it makes sense .hee hee
all the best alan.

 

[pappajohn]

hi pappa you could sell the rv and get a suitable vehicle to allow you totow. or get a fiver you know it makes sense .hee hee
all the best alan.

had one of them Alan.....but you couldnt swing a cat !!!!

i can forfeit the toad for the space and comfort of the RV

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[motor roamin]

I presume you use your brakes Barry? The reason why the old Department for Transport (now VOSA).. had these SI in the first place was to define what was a trailer .. correct 4 wheels on the road.. all with brakes if over the unbrakes weight of 750 Kgs... So to save having a lw for every twist and turn the SI covered vehicles that were towed. As some toads only have rear wheel brakeing on a cable it would have less brake power than those on a trailer with 4 brakes wheels.. So unless the makers of toads.. and it is them you should be complaining to make a proper bit of equipment.. the law stands. The toad is not legal as it is classed as a trailer and does not meet the regulations.. construction and use. Simples... get the toads sorted and then they will be proper trailers. or what do you think we should call them??? toads???? just can see that in legislation .. but as the law does not change as you might like Barry.. you either have to adapt or face the possibility one day of the yellow jacket waving you in to a lay by and doing a full inspection.. not just a fine.. the American Limos were ceased and then crushed under the powers VOSA have.

Sobering thought that your toad might get crushed.. oh yes so could the motorhome as it is all running under one registration number.. no one has thought about that.

Bob:Blush:

In all fairness Bob these Limos were seized after many warnings to the company to conform to PCV operating rules, including getting an operators licence which they chose to ignore along with Eu drivers regs, this was the outcome of a case that went on for over 12 months.

The only similarity is that the company concerned felt that it didnt come under eu regs or operater regs as they were not busses but Limos, there are a few other Limo companies in the same boat at this time and my spys tell me VOSA are at present sitting on 18 Limos from various companies, may well be awaiting the crusher.

All the best Rick.

 

[Snowbird]

all this has no impact on me whatsoever....

running at 7500kg and having a C1E licence i have 4 choices.

1...ignore the law

2...dont tow (current option :Sad

3 ...motorbike and trailer

4...find a car/trailer combi under 750kg (yeah right, flying officer oink !)

Am a bit out of touch with driving licenses now John, but what is the gross train weight for a C1E licence now.
Just in case I let the HGV licence go and they do ban Aframes and I have to resort to tugging a trailer around with me.

 

[vwalan]

hi dave . c1+e restricted code 107 is 8,250kg. trainweight. better geta fiver. you can then have a 3,500kg unit and pull much more .no weight limmit just the train of the tow unit on a b+e licence.
could be 12 tonnes with the right unit.

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[Snowbird]

hi dave . c1+e restricted code 107 is 8,250kg. trainweight. better geta fiver. you can then have a 3,500kg unit and pull much more .no weight limmit just the train of the tow unit on a b+e licence.
could be 12 tonnes with the right unit.

Hi Al, So with a 7.5 ton RV your looking at a trailer and car with a combined weight of 750kgs to be legal eh.
What sort of trailer and car are you going to get thats under 750kgs. A half decent braked trailer is going to weigh 500 kgs, that leaves 250 kgs for a car.
Now my old panda weighed under 750kgs including the Aframe so who would VOSA be more interested in if pulled into a spot check....an overloaded RV towing an overloaded trailer or me and my Panda not braking any laws at this moment in time.
I think I will take my chances.

 

[pappajohn]

Hi Al, So with a 7.5 ton RV your looking at a trailer and car with a combined weight of 750kgs to be legal eh.
What sort of trailer and car are you going to get thats under 750kgs. A half decent braked trailer is going to weigh 500 kgs, that leaves 250 kgs for a car.
Now my old panda weighed under 750kgs including the Aframe so who would VOSA be more interested in if pulled into a spot check....an overloaded RV towing an overloaded trailer or me and my Panda not braking any laws at this moment in time.
I think I will take my chances.

unfortunately Dave it dont work like that.....

Vosa use the gross weight of the panda, or indeed any trailer, whether loaded or not and not the kerb weight.

my old corsa had a kerb of 640kg but a gross of 1160kg.

as Alan said, the gross train is 8250kg but if your RV is 6500kg you could tow 1750kg....6000kg you could tow 2250kg etc...train permitting.

 

[vwalan]

you could be breaking laws if you dont have auto reverse brakes fitted . or a system that allows reversing.you better get a 5er as well .hee hee.
or say you are doing a recovery. its sad realy been towing on aframes for years unbraked ,mainly recovery . also use a harvey frost towboy. never driven slowly or as the rules say . never been stopped never even knew there was rules for years. once you know it starts the niggle. still keep a business card in my pocket just in case. i like aframes but will admit wouldnt fancy having one on the back to go away with. a 5er gives me everything i need.

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[johnp10]

5ersbare all very well, Alan, but some folk want motorhomes, not caravans?

 

[vwalan]

hi, yes i understand. years ago i never thought i would end up with a caravan.
i cant see a better way of doing it now. the overlap in construction gives a shorter length all told .the manouverability is excellant.
i also drive artic trucks so mine is just a baby.
but if you need a toad ,its worth thinking about it as another option. less tax mot ,insuranc,. etc.i think pappa knows i was pulling his leg. we have had similar talks before.
but seriously i think it could suit many i see a growth happening that certainly wasnt there when i first did mine 11yrs ago. i am a definate beliver in 5ers (mini artics)are going to get much more common. you can still have a good size living accomodation at 70yr old , not in a euro box at 3,500kg.
they dont handle like a normal caravan. but i think you already know that.
cheers alan.

 

[olley]

Hi Al, So with a 7.5 ton RV your looking at a trailer and car with a combined weight of 750kgs to be legal eh.
What sort of trailer and car are you going to get thats under 750kgs. A half decent braked trailer is going to weigh 500 kgs, that leaves 250 kgs for a car.
Now my old panda weighed under 750kgs including the Aframe so who would VOSA be more interested in if pulled into a spot check....an overloaded RV towing an overloaded trailer or me and my Panda not braking any laws at this moment in time.
I think I will take my chances.

One of the French microcars has a special trailer which gives an all up gross weight of 750kg. Which makes it legal to tow if you are at your C1 limit of 7.5t.

Ian

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