Time to consider lithium

[AMK]

My trustee L/A batteries are coming to end of life and it’s time to shop for new.

so I’m thinking let’s splash out on some lithium, does anyone know of any offers at the moment.

Then on another note, will my charging system cope with lithium, i do have a 30 amp sterling B2b installed and a 30 amp Solar mppt with custom settings.

 

[Raul]

Lithium is a good choice, the chargers needs to have custom inputs or Li profile presets. I prefer custom inputs as you are in full control of how you charge it, being solar, B2B or ehu.

 

[andy63]

There was a thread the other day about the suitability of lithium as a drop in replacement..it seems more and more of us are doing it.. and time will tell if its is as straight fwd as they say..

LIFOS/Inverter/B2B....... one year on

In an earlier posting (Sept 2019...... https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/campscout……-first-10-weeks-plus-recent-lifos-inverter-addition.203904/ ) I reported on my first 10 weeks of owning our new Globecar Campscout and the addition of a pair of Lifos batteries and an inverter. I had...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Andy

 

[the1andonly]

What makes you think you need lithium.
What signs relating to bipolar disorder do you have, depression psychosis. Any delusions or mania. If just the later dont discount another battery of disorders /illnesses.

 

[Jim]

I really love my Lithiums. There is lots to like, but the biggest plus for me is the rate of charge. They suck in whatever you can chuck at them, whether that is from a big alternator, a roof of solar or a hookup. Batteries good-to-go-again so quickly is a game changer when you are away from hookup.

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[Two on Tour]

We love our Lithiums too, half the weight and nearly twice the usable capacity.
Our Lithiums got down to 87% one time, but we weren't on EHU and it had been overcast and cloudy for a couple of days and we had caned the battery with the telly, lights, fridge, heating, hair dryer and charging laptops.

 

[Raul]

What makes you think you need lithium.
What signs relating to bipolar disorder do you have, depression psychosis. Any delusions or mania. If just the later dont discount another battery of disorders /illnesses.

You are typing powered by lithium, you make phone calls powered by lithium, why not use it for other things too?. It’s a massive step from lead.

 

[Robert Clark]

If you’re managing with lead acid I’m not sure there’s much benefit in switching to lithium.

If your consumption, storage and generation are matched then you’re in a good place.

 

[two]

If the OP is bothered about cost, the cheapest solution will probably be to swap like-for-like.
If bothered about payload, I'd go Lithium.
Things are changing rapidly. Stay with what you know unless there is good reason to change. I wouldn't plan to keep whatever batteries I had when changing vans, so the investment needs to have made a return by that time if it's to be worth while.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Do you need to change the charge controller to get the voltage correct for the lithium battery?

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[two]

Do you need to change the charge controller to get the voltage correct for the lithium battery?

Yes, if it doesn't have a Lithium setting.

 

[andy63]

Another link that covers many of the points raised by folk.. they are in the buisness of selling chargers but think it makes fair points

Can I charge my lithium battery with a lead acid charger? - Enerdrive

Lithium batteries are not like lead acid and not all battery chargers are the same. As such, there are a few factors you'll need to consider.

enerdrive.com.au

Andy

 

[ManTheVan]

Swapped out a lead-acid leisure battery for LiFePo4 100Ah and love it. No shortage of power and with a B2B there’s no neEd to worry about charge levels. Haven’t needed a EHU since. 100W solar and MPPT has been excellent do far. Look up Batterymasters, who have some good deals on.

 

[autorouter]

What signs relating to bipolar disorder do you have, depression psychosis. Any delusions or mania. If just the later dont discount another battery of disorders /illnesses.

Delusions: check.
Mania: check.
Bipolar disorder: well, I have an irrational fear of reverse polarity.
So, I definitely need lithium

 

[autorouter]

i do have a 30 amp sterling B2b installed

I know the later models (with green stripe across the front) definitely have a lithium setting, but I don't know about earlier models.

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[SMB]

I would love lithiums but unfortunately the current batteries are only two year old so it will (hopefully) be a while yet before they need replacing. Unless we change the van of course...

 

[funflair]

Another link that covers many of the points raised by folk.. they are in the buisness of selling chargers but think it makes fair points

Can I charge my lithium battery with a lead acid charger? - Enerdrive

Lithium batteries are not like lead acid and not all battery chargers are the same. As such, there are a few factors you'll need to consider.

enerdrive.com.au

Andy

Hi Andy

That seems quite contradictory to the instructions that come with our Super-B LiFePO4 batteries, Super-B recommend Bulk Absorption and float phases in the charger.

 

[autorouter]

That seems quite contradictory to the instructions that come with our Super-B LiFePO4 batteries, Super-B recommend Bulk Absorption and float phases in the charger.

Sorry, not convinced. Have they come up with a definite reason why a LiFePO4 battery needs an absorption phase and a float charge, or is it just a hangover from lead-acid charging?

 

[Fontie]

My Lithium fitted by Vanbitz year and a half ago with Sterling B2B and on their advice leaving the Swift original Sargent charger, 100W solar has and is fine, I thinks its the Lithium battery monitoring system that sorts the charge coming in and only takes what the battery needs. not sure

 

[andy63]

Hi Andy

That seems quite contradictory to the instructions that come with our Super-B LiFePO4 batteries, Super-B recommend Bulk Absorption and float phases in the charger.

View attachment 433181

Hi Martin.. and thats what is confusing me..
The battery to battery chargers ..the solar controllers and mains chargers all seem to continue to deliver a charge after completing their main charge cycle.. call it what you want.. float / trickle etc yet I was lead to believe that lithium is better fully charged and then used..without keeping it topped up..obviously the charge has to recommence at some stage but the batteries are getting cycled and not kept at a constantly elevated voltage..
I bought a mains charger specifically for lifepo4 batteries..
It delivers a full charge current right up until the batteries are full tailing off very quickly at the end of its cycle..
It then stops charging..thats how I believe they should be charged.. so..as I said im a little confused that we are told these other sources are acceptable..
Atm im back to switching the mains charger on manually when required..I will be keeping an eye on the salar and battery to battery to see if the current reduces to zero..
The installed cbe charger ive disconnected and wired it to the start battery directly rather than take it out..
Andy

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[funflair]

Hi Martin.. and thats what is confusing me..
The battery to battery chargers ..the solar controllers and mains chargers all seem to continue to deliver a charge after completing their main charge cycle.. call it what you want.. float / trickle etc yet I was lead to believe that lithium is better fully charged and then used..without keeping it topped up..obviously the charge has to recommence at some stage but the batteries are getting cycled and not kept at a constantly elevated voltage..
I bought a mains charger specifically for lifepo4 batteries..
It delivers a full charge current right up until the batteries are full tailing off very quickly at the end of its cycle..
It then stops charging..thats how I believe they should be charged.. so..as I said im a little confused that we are told these other sources are acceptable..
Atm im back to switching the mains charger on manually when required..I will be keeping an eye on the salar and battery to battery to see if the current reduces to zero..
The installed cbe charger ive disconnected and wired it to the start battery directly rather than take it out..
Andy

The Super-B web site says that it goes to 13.2v float so doesn't charge anymore but the charger is there to support the batteries with a big load, kettle and microwave would be 250A.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

There may be a difference between LiFeP04 that do and do not have their own embedded controller. If it does not have a controller the charger systems will need to do that. With a controller, it won't really matter what the charger is giving, the controller decides what to take.

As with Fontie, Vanbitz fitted me a couple of months ago a Sterling 120Ah Lithium, Sterling B2B and uprated the 100A solar to a Victron MPPT. The Sargent PSU / Charger unit remained, but has been disconnected from the engine in favour of the B2B, but if on EHU the Sargent thing would try to charge the Lithium. It's notable the Sargent has a single flat rate charger (which can't have done the old lead-acid much good without float options) at 13.8V, max 12A. The Sterling Battery data gives a max charge voltage at 14.8V with an absorption phase at 14.6V and float at 13.8V, the latter sitting nicely with the Sargent if I was to be on EHU for any length of time. Of course the B2B and solar controller have Lithium profiles, although the latter has needed to be tweaked.

Storage of the lithium should also be considered. Buried in the Sterling instructions is a reference that the battery should be discharged (data suggests the controller would cut off at 10V) every 3 months before recharge. Not clear if when not in use for a lengthy period it would prefer to be at say 80% rather than 100% charge - certainly my Bosch e-bike battery says storage is better at 60-80%. I may need to periodically turn the solar controller off to stop it trying to top up all the time.

 

[andy63]

but the charger is there to support the batteries with a big load, kettle and microwave would be 250A

Its usually the other way round with the charger been of limited capacity and the batteries support the power pack/charger when the load increases..
I cant help feeling that its all a bit of a fudge atm.. imo lithium should be charged and then used..without any support until they have reached a point in their discharge cycle where they should be charged again..
That point can be determined by a level that gives best value for money and was regarded as 50% for lead acid..most probably could be higher for lithium..but even the lifespan of lithium is decreased by increasing the depth of discharge..
Thats how I read it all anyway....
Andy

 

[andy63]

More reading
It does appear to be widely accepted that subject to certain conditions lead acid chargers can be used..
They cover the point here..

How To Charge Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries - Power Sonic

A complete guide on how to charge lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. Learn about the charging of a lithium battery from Power Sonic

www.power-sonic.com

But the point is also made that keeping lithium at a high state of charge will effect its lifespan.. just as keeping a lead acid in a low state of charge can effect its lifespan..
Andy

 

[funflair]

Its usually the other way round with the charger been of limited capacity and the batteries support the power pack/charger when the load increases..
I cant help feeling that its all a bit of a fudge atm.. imo lithium should be charged and then used..without any support until they have reached a point in their discharge cycle where they should be charged again..
That point can be determined by a level that gives best value for money and was regarded as 50% for lead acid..most probably could be higher for lithium..but even the lifespan of lithium is decreased by increasing the depth of discharge..
Thats how I read it all anyway....
Andy

A bit of both possibly Andy, our inverter will max out at 5kw so lets call that 400A so as soon as battery voltage goes below Ureturn the charger start its bulk again, up to that point though I think it just helps with the load at the float voltage of 13.2v, yes I think you are right about charged and then used down to 20% and recharged as it balances the cells but of course its not practical to leave a hook up at 20% capacity and then drive say 20 minutes to a spot without hook up as then you would be low on capacity.

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[funflair]

More reading
It does appear to be widely accepted that subject to certain conditions lead acid chargers can be used..
They cover the point here..

How To Charge Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries - Power Sonic

A complete guide on how to charge lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. Learn about the charging of a lithium battery from Power Sonic

www.power-sonic.com

But the point is also made that keeping lithium at a high state of charge will effect its lifespan.. just as keeping a lead acid in a low state of charge can effect its lifespan..
Andy

I have read that as well and certainly wouldn't leave it on hook up at home.

 

[poppycamper]

I only charge my lithiums to 100% (with mains stand alone lithium charger) before setting out on a trip. On return if batteries need charging I again will use mains charger but only take to 80%. They are then left to sit quite happily. I do have solar but have fitted isolation switch so batteries receive no charge what so ever while sitting on my drive..
I do however occasionally turn on solar but just to give starter battery an occasional boost.
Edit... I NEVER have van plugged into leccy at home and if I do use EHU while away the battery charger side is always turned off..

 

[andy63]

A bit of both possibly Andy, our inverter will max out at 5kw so lets call that 400A so as soon as battery voltage goes below Ureturn the charger start its bulk again, up to that point though I think it just helps with the load at the float voltage of 13.2v, yes I think you are right about charged and then used down to 20% and recharged as it balances the cells but of course its not practical to leave a hook up at 20% capacity and then drive say 20 minutes to a spot without hook up as then you would be low on capacity.

Youer living on a different planet to me lol..
I'm not and never have been a fan of inverters.. coffee machines microwaves.. etc etc.. to me they just kill batteries ...unless you have a huge bank..certainly better suited to lithium anyway..
I doubt you will suffer from lack of discharge of your lithium batteries by the sounds of it..
Hope that new truck is all you had hoped for..it sounds fantastic..
Andy..

 

[JJ]

Cripey Cripes... my head hurts after reading this thread!

I switch on the switch... the light comes on... I switch off the switch and it goes out. Magic.

All seems to be ok with my Varta LFD 90 amp batteries (2).

JJ

 

[funflair]

Youer living on a different planet to me lol..
I'm not and never have been a fan of inverters.. coffee machines microwaves.. etc etc.. to me they just kill batteries ...unless you have a huge bank..certainly better suited to lithium anyway..
I doubt you will suffer from lack of discharge of your lithium batteries by the sounds of it..
Hope that new truck is all you had hoped for..it sounds fantastic..
Andy..

Surprising what you can use when everything is electric Andy, 100/120ah per day seems about right at the moment but that not ideal when getting next to no solar, could dig out the gas kettle if desperate thought, 8 years of inverter use on the Gel's on the Flair and they were still going.

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