Threat of legal action Portugal - having small panic here (1 Viewer)

Mags52

Free Member
Jun 2, 2010
1,433
1,731
Melrose Scottish Borders
Funster No
11,895
MH
Hymer B774
Exp
Since 2010
Further to the thread I started about half an hour ago I now have a translation of the letter we have received from the GNR in Portugal. We parked at Armacao de Pera last January and in the morning were woken by the police who made us sign a declaration. At the time they told us it was just a warning and there was no fine to pay - just don't do it again. We thought it was a legal parking place so we were quite shocked.
Here is the translation of the letter:
"By this notice, it is stated in the notice that, by order of the President Rosa Christina de Palma, dated 02/02/2017, on the report of the National Republican Guard, a proceeding was instituted against management.

In accordance with the content of the order, you are alleged to have carried out caravanning in an undue place on 20 January 2017.

These facts, for violation of the provisions of No. 1 or No. 2 of Regulatory Decree no. 38/80 of 19 August, in conjunction with Article 1 (1) thereof. 18 of Decree-Law no.1 310/02 of December 18, are liable to punishment on a non-ordering basis, pursuant to the provisions of art. 47.0 (1), al. g) with a fine of € 150 to € 200 of the same legal provisions.

Therefore, for the purposes of Article 50 of the General Regime of Counter-Ordinances and Fines, you are hereby notified to present Written Defense in Portuguese, within 20 days, of the date of receipt of the Notice of Notification, to allege what he has as appropriate, on the case of the said notice, and may also appoint witnesses and constitute, under the terms of law, counsel.

If you do not file a defense in writing, you must, however, proceed with the delivery of a copy of your last proof of income equivalent to I.R.C. or I.R.S. and their respective settlement note depending on whether it is a legal or natural person, to prove their economic situation.

In addition, if you inform us that you are Arguido, you have the right to be represented by a lawyer at any stage of the proceedings.

Silves, on January 10, 2018"

Can anyone help us with what to do please?
Mags
 
Jan 19, 2014
9,322
24,581
Derbyshire
Funster No
29,757
MH
Elddis Accordo 105
Exp
since 2014
Similar thing happened to us in Spain, we got a Spanish letter through weeks later when we got home. There's no money on it so I don't think they want payment.
I think it's a bloody cheek asking for €150 for parking up for a night. If they send us any demand for payment they can sod off. I don't think they'll get interpol involved for a parking ticket :cool:
 
May 8, 2010
2,060
4,350
Funster No
11,466
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2010
I think @Zains Pops is right. You could really stress yourselves up about this, and probably still have to pay up. If you just pay it now, you can forget about it and get on with enjoying your trip. :)
 
OP
OP
Mags52

Mags52

Free Member
Jun 2, 2010
1,433
1,731
Melrose Scottish Borders
Funster No
11,895
MH
Hymer B774
Exp
Since 2010
The letter doesn't ask for money it asks for a defence. I have written my version of events but don't know whether this is the right thing to do.
 

Chris

LIFE MEMBER
May 5, 2010
21,010
274,743
Funster No
11,412
MH
None
Exp
10 years
Well the fine seems to be between €150 -200.

I suppose you could pay €200 and tell them to stick it up their Algarve.

Don’t know what else to do to be honest unless you write to say sorry and you hadn’t realised it was illegal etc.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Theonlysue

LIFE MEMBER
Sep 14, 2009
6,104
7,383
Essex
Funster No
8,456
MH
As Executive 50th an
Exp
Not long enough!
Send them a letter in your defence and see what happens.
I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
Hardly a hanging offence.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Feb 10, 2013
770
1,232
plymouth
Funster No
24,636
MH
Sprinter
Exp
off and on 30 years
The letter says different that's why I wondered if they were real
 

dna

Jan 17, 2010
663
4,054
Llandudno
Funster No
9,981
MH
AT Tribute 680 pvc
Exp
since 2009
If you are concerned then have you got Legal cover with any of your Insurances (house / contents / motorhome etc) or Bank accounts. Give them a call and see if they can advise

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Feb 21, 2016
4,910
29,131
Uk
Funster No
41,726
MH
C class
Exp
Since 2017
The Portuguese are lovely people but they do like a large dollop of bureaucracy over the simplest of things.
If there is a fine,I suggest you pay it.
Otherwise,ignore it,and wait to see what happens.
 

BreweryDave

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 10, 2011
3,495
10,541
Alvor, Algarve
Funster No
17,694
MH
None now!
Exp
2011
I wouldn't advise ignoring it, unless you never visit Portugal again. These things don't go away unfortunately. But I would send in a defence statement, after all, that car park allows it! ( even if not officially allowed by the town hall, turn the tables and say you were defrauded )

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

TheBig1

LIFE MEMBER
Nov 27, 2011
17,509
42,755
Dorset
Funster No
19,048
MH
A class
Exp
many many years! since I was a kid
i think, not certain, that they need to put any fine or letter in the language of the recipient legally. i think this is what JJs portugese friend said last time this happened
 
Aug 2, 2017
175
199
Worcestershire
Funster No
49,787
MH
Burstner Ixeo It 724
Exp
Since 2015
I get the impression that you won't rest easy by 'just ignoring' this notice/letter.

Its important that you keep a balanced perspective, its not a hanging notice. I would be inclined to respond as requested, state your points clearly and without undue negative emotion.
It never hurts to offer an apology for any misunderstanding, and to confirm that you are law abiding visitors to their country with a fully legal vehicle, etc.

The only real hassle you are likely to encounter, is getting your written response translated professionally into Portuguese, so that there are no further misunderstandings (y)
 
OP
OP
Mags52

Mags52

Free Member
Jun 2, 2010
1,433
1,731
Melrose Scottish Borders
Funster No
11,895
MH
Hymer B774
Exp
Since 2010
I get the impression that you won't rest easy by 'just ignoring' this notice/letter.

Its important that you keep a balanced perspective, its not a hanging notice. I would be inclined to respond as requested, state your points clearly and without undue negative emotion.
It never hurts to offer an apology for any misunderstanding, and to confirm that you are law abiding visitors to their country with a fully legal vehicle, etc.

The only real hassle you are likely to encounter, is getting your written response translated professionally into Portuguese, so that there are no further misunderstandings (y)

You are right that the thought of ignoring it doesn't sit well but as it was written in Portuguese I can't see how they expect us to know what to do. My son used Google translate to give us the version above but that is known for its errors.

It's hard not to stress about it but thanks for the helpful suggestions.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Aug 2, 2017
175
199
Worcestershire
Funster No
49,787
MH
Burstner Ixeo It 724
Exp
Since 2015
A Google search will provide a selection of companies in the UK that can provide legal translations for you in Portuguese.

Another very useful and little known about professional legal service in the UK is provided by a selection of Notaries.
A local one to you can be found at www.thenotariessociety.org.uk

We have used a UK Notary, and found the service to be extremely efficient and well respected abroad.
 

GWAYGWAY

Free Member
Sep 6, 2014
4,213
3,305
Dover
Funster No
33,216
MH
Hymer ML I 580
Exp
4 years
It has not happened to me but I think that if you get a piece of paper out and a pen and ask the ploliceman to write down what he/she says then you have it in writing, what happens if they make a demand and you say no, do they impound it, or just shoot you. Wouldn't be good for the tourist industry.
Bear in mind though that Spain, Portugal, Greece and further back Italy and Germany were all Fascist countries, the first three not long ago, the Chief of Police might still have the Gardia Civile, big stick and machine guns mentality. If you see the news about Catalonian independence march and what they were doing to people tring to vote about it. The old habits do linger. Probably find the police get paid if there is enough money in the pot to actually pay them. NEVER sign anything you do not understand you might end up like the woman in Egypt with good know how many years in prison for UK pain killers. She signed something she did not know and it was a full admission that she was a drug smuggler.
 
Feb 8, 2014
1,661
4,635
Sheffield
Funster No
30,022
MH
Eldis Majestic 115
Exp
Vans and tugs since mid 70's
You are right that the thought of ignoring it doesn't sit well but as it was written in Portuguese I can't see how they expect us to know what to do. My son used Google translate to give us the version above but that is known for its errors.

It's hard not to stress about it but thanks for the helpful suggestions.
Get yourself to the nearest university - languages department and ask for a translation - test for their students - best translation £20.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

soreeyes

Free Member
Feb 21, 2012
351
136
Dorset
Funster No
19,903
MH
Sunlight T69L 2017
Exp
im a newbie
Under the Cross Border Agreement the letter has to be sent in the language the vehicle is registered in .

Possibly a technical issue they have not followed the correct procedure you could get out of paying it .

Seek legal advice .
 

BreweryDave

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 10, 2011
3,495
10,541
Alvor, Algarve
Funster No
17,694
MH
None now!
Exp
2011
Under the Cross Border Agreement the letter has to be sent in the language the vehicle is registered in .

Possibly a technical issue they have not followed the correct procedure you could get out of paying it .

Seek legal advice .

Interesting, found this which is worth a read for us all, it doesn't include parking or camping offences, but useful to know in any event.

http://etsc.eu/faq-eu-cross-border-enforcement-directive/
 
May 31, 2015
11,526
43,783
Cornwall
Funster No
36,638
MH
Ducato PVC
Exp
Getting Better
Traffic offences are one thing, parking offences are another... there not going to come and get you for parking rightly or wrongly in a car park....

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
May 8, 2010
2,060
4,350
Funster No
11,466
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2010
I think that, maybe, to pay for a professional translation and notary service, you will most likely be paying more than 150 Euros. Is it worth the hassle?
 

Gorse Hill

Free Member
Feb 2, 2013
2,364
1,944
Stretford
Funster No
24,533
MH
Burnster Ixeo IT 734
Exp
2000
It has not happened to me but I think that if you get a piece of paper out and a pen and ask the ploliceman to write down what he/she says then you have it in writing, what happens if they make a demand and you say no, do they impound it, or just shoot you. Wouldn't be good for the tourist industry.
Bear in mind though that Spain, Portugal, Greece and further back Italy and Germany were all Fascist countries, the first three not long ago, the Chief of Police might still have the Gardia Civile, big stick and machine guns mentality. If you see the news about Catalonian independence march and what they were doing to people tring to vote about it. The old habits do linger. Probably find the police get paid if there is enough money in the pot to actually pay them. NEVER sign anything you do not understand you might end up like the woman in Egypt with good know how many years in prison for UK pain killers. She signed something she did not know and it was a full admission that she was a drug smuggler.
The women had 300 Tramadol which is the most abused drug in Egypt the synthetic opioid is only available on prescription but is often obtained illegally and used as a heroin substitute so a bit different, but I take your point about not signing anything
 
Nov 18, 2011
11,857
42,502
Planet Earth
Funster No
18,938
MH
A van
Exp
Over 25 year's
haven't red this all the way through but i am fairly sure under European law that any proceedings taken agenst you must be communicated to you in your mother langue i got a good friend who just happens to have a wife from Portugal
will have a wee chat with her tomorow
bill

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Nov 18, 2011
11,857
42,502
Planet Earth
Funster No
18,938
MH
A van
Exp
Over 25 year's
Never trust a policeman. Or anyone in authority.The friendlier they are the bigger lying scum they are. Same in all countries.
They cannot lie in bed straight the vast majority.

For the future ,Always use your phone to record anything, if forced to sign anything then just use an illegible scrawl & your other hand. .
Send in your defence stating that you were specifically told that it was just a warning & ,if having signed something in a language you do not speak, it appears that you have incorrectly admitted something which you were not doing then you consider that you have been entrapped by criminal practice & conduct unbecoming a serving officer.
Additionally as they have used the cross border directive to serve the notice it has been done illegally & incorrectly under EU legislation, namely it is not in the language of the registration document,English, & there fore does not comply .
In addition ( & this depends on the date which you received the letter) the Portugese , or any country sending out notices, have 12 months from the date of the alleged offence to have instigated contact with the alleged offender.
As it is the 18th today ,& I doubt that you have been holding the letter for some 16 days , the 12 months lapsed on the 2nd January 2018.
You have saved me sum research with my portages friend(y) but i think you are spot on
bill
 
Oct 29, 2016
4,471
51,804
Surrey
Funster No
45,842
MH
Carthago C Tourer
Exp
Motor Homing 5 years, caravan previously
We feel really sorry for the position that Mags 52 now finds herself in, not knowing where she stands, whether to just pay the fine or ignore it, especially as its written in Portuguese that most of us would struggle with. I think that the advice from Gus-Lopez is probably spot on,as he lives there and knows how bent the police are in filling up their fines quotas. This however still does not alter the fact that Mags will still have to trawl through the web links provided and send some form of letter in an attempt to prove that she did not fully understand what she had signed, and then throw herself at their mercy, and hope they will just drop the case.
We follow travels blogs and read posts on MHF, that tell us very often of how the Spanish & Portuguese police are becoming stricter with MH wilding or parking overnight in non designated car parks.
I suppose thats mainly due to locals complaining, along with the fact that so many more now are disregarding the local parking rules, bundling up in groups making the situation worse, then moving on to pose the problem further up the road.
Well its becoming obvious to me, and maybe should be to all of us, that the police under those circumstances are soon going to get fed up with us, and start dishing out fines, so that the word is spread far afield, that we cant take the mickey any longer, by paying with our wallets.

We haven't taken our new Mh to Spain or Portugal as yet, and to be honest, we may have to plan our future routes to use only legal Aires or Sostas, or worse case Sites, although like many we wouldn't want to be hemmed in like sardines, or feel that we are being ripped off with extortionate site fees as we only want to stay a day or two, instead of a month to get a decent rate....saying that though if needs must, we will.
There will be more experienced regular travellers to help us with the situation as it is NOW, rather than what it was like a few years back, hopefully we are being too cautious with our attitude having read this post & others like it, and common sense will prevail.
Good Luck Mags, keep us posted on what happens next.
TinaL & Les
 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top