Tech Help on Sterling B2B Install

[Bustup15]

Recently fitted a 1260 Sterling B2B, at first power up all worked correctly, input and output voltages measured with meter correctly.

As van not in use and in storage, it wasn't used for some weeks.

At next visit, van started first time but alarm tone from the 1260 located in the garage. On inspection shows low voltage on leisure batteries - measures as 0 volts with a meter across the 1260 terminals. The batteries are fully charged and measure 13+ volts, the on board display confirms this reading. The same display doesn't read anything from the engine battery but this is also fully charged, tested with meter and the Metatrack also confirms correct voltage.

Spoke with Sterling who advised that 'it's obvious that you have a break in the cable/fuse/connection between the 1260 and the leisure batteries. ' Tested all fuses and connections I made and no fault located.

I removed the output connection from the 1260, confirmed input voltage at 12.6v, reconnected output and the alarm was cleared. Started engine, all voltages correct at 1260 and onboard display now sees the engine battery and leisure batteries.

Ran for a few minutes, all ok, stopped engine, waited 10 minutes, fired up engine and fault reappears, no output voltage!

To clarify the fitting:
The engine battery connected to the Schaudt HSM-01 high voltage module.
I interrupted this feed and put the 1260 in the middle (as shown in the manual to connect a Schaudt booster). Engine battery positive, to 1260 input, 1260 output to engine battery in of the HSM-01. Engine battery negative from 1260 to HSM-01.

I will try and attach the schematics so hopefully a technical mind can tell me what I've done wrong.

I'm confused as to why it will work the first time and then fault on 2nd start?

Or do I omit the engine input to the HSM-01 and instead connect to the leisure 12v at the HSM-01?

Images 1 & 2 show as supplied, image 3 shows the additional booster unit

 

[andy63]

If I'm reading your post correctly you have connected the btob in series with the feed from the start battery to the control unit in your van..
That doesn't seem right..
I would have thought you would have connected the start battery to the input side of the bto b and taken the output of the b to b to the leisure battery positive..
I may have picked it up incorrectly but that's the way I see it..
Andy

 

[Bustup15]

If I'm reading your post correctly you have connected the btob in series with the feed from the start battery to the control unit in your van..
That doesn't seem right..
I would have thought you would have connected the start battery to the input side of the bto b and taken the output of the b to b to the leisure battery positive..
I may have picked it up incorrectly but that's the way I see it..
Andy

I agree but thats how the manual shows the connections - unless I'm reading it wrong?

 

[Robert Clark]

I’m with Sterling on this one
There surely must be a fault on the cable between the B2B and the Leisure battery.

I’d suggest testing the voltage either side of the fuses on the cable to the leisure battery.

Edit
I’d suggest connecting the B2B direct to the leisure battery

 

[andy63]

Well as long as I haven't misunderstood you then what is a schadut booster that they recommend installing in that fashion.
Its most probably has a different function to a battery to battery charger.. Which is
just a DC to DC charger capable of a fairly high current output ..it makes no sense to install it like that and effectively supply an output voltage that will be governed by whatever battery profile you have selected to a terminal that should be receiving start battery/ alternator voltage..

What mechanism is then regulating the charge to the leisure battery..
Ideally you would connect the battery to battery charger output to the leisure battery and disable the present facility that is built into the vehicle power supply that does that so there is no conflict when the bto b.is used as the charging source..
That would be what I would try..
Andy..

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[Pausim]

You might find reading the Votronic VCC installation instructions helpful, they give specific advice on wiring up with a Schaudt EBL. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1498833/Votronic-Vcc-1212-50.html?page=4#manual
However your 60A Sterling may well exceed the capacity of the Schaudt EBL, perhaps it is locking out.

I am thinking you may need to wire your B2B directly to the leisure battery and disconnect the the original engine battery connection to the EBL. You might lose the engine battery reading from your display but if you wire directly to the leisure battery without breaking the original charging route you create a loop and end up with the B2B feeding itself and raising the voltage level throughout the system. I know this because I did it. I subsequently followed the Votronic wiring instructions for an EBL and cut the charge level back to EBL friendly levels and all was well. Unfortunately I think your 60A sterling does not have the facility to reduce the charge so you might need to follow the direct battery to battery route and cut the EBL out of the circuit.

 

[DBK]

The 1260 can output 60 amps, can the Schaudt handle that?

I also would couple the B2B directly to the leisure batteries. This is what the Sterling instructions say and how I connected mine. The downside is you won't see the charging current but I don't think that matters too much.

 

[Stealaway]

AS above but this diagram is the tried and tested and usual way to install a Sterling BtoB, leave the link in auto - works every time.
All you need to watch is the voltages to both sets of batteries climb - ignore the amperage and any other devices.

 

[No-Dun-Roamin’]

I have got a Sterling B2B installed and there are 4 very heavy duty cables connected to to it straight to and from the leisure and the starter battery, with high current fuses on the positive cables to each of the batteries. If hard wired like this, then the fault you are experiencing should hopefully not be occurring.
The other think that might be happening is that if you somehow are in a fault mode or condition, the unit might be resetting itself somehow.
I also purchased the remote, which I found to be very handy, since the unit is installed out of sight and it is not easy to see the led displays to show what is going on. From the remote, it is easy to monitor both the battery voltages. I had an intermittent fault last year and could see immediately from the remote that it was going into an alarm condition. It turned out to be a faulty unit and I would not have known otherwise.
Remember to check that it is set up correctly for the type of battery you are using. Once set up the remote display is green when the battery voltages are in the correct range, and turns red when out of range.
I also have a PwerXtreme lithium leisure battery, and from this I can see the charging current going to the battery when the unit is operating.
Also make sure it has not been inadvertently set into the standby mode, when I presume the unit disconnects itself somehow from the connected batteries.
Hope this helps . . .

 

[Pausim]

The 1260 can output 60 amps, can the Schaudt handle that?

I also would couple the B2B directly to the leisure batteries. This is what the Sterling instructions say and how I connected mine. The downside is you won't see the charging current but I don't think that matters too much.

My Schaudt EBL 29 could not handle 60A and I agree wire it direct makes good sense.

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[Bustup15]

Thanks for all the input and suggestions.

I looked again at the spec of the Schaudt booster and it seems to be designed to carry out the same function as the 1260 with charging at upto 70A.

https://www.ivt-hirschau.de/media/920000-Instructions-Booster-WA121545-EN.pdf

I tried connecting the output of the 1260 directly to the leisure batteries instead of to the HSM-01 input and that certainly works. As expected I lose the engine battery display, which was visible when the 1260 worked on the wiring configuration as per the Schaudt booster.

Any thoughts on having the original engine battery feed directly connected to the HSM-01 as per the original manufacturer install and then to the 1260 as engine input? I don't think that will that create the charging loop that others have mentioned?

The EBL only has the leisure battery feed connected and not the engine battery, which I took to mean it is the HSM-01 that was controlling the charge rates.

 

[andy63]

The booster they talk about does appear to be their version or make of a battery to battery charger and must be installed if you have a euro 6 with smart alternator..similar reason for installing the sterling unit so it should work in the fashion they have described connecting it...?
I've had a quick look for any obvious differences in the instructions you posted the link to which might cause the issue you mentioned and the only one that I can see is that the schadut unit has sense wires connected to each battery bank..the Stirling doesn't use separate sensing circuitry..
The issue you have seems to be that the existing charging circuit isolates the leisure battery voltage from the battery to battery charger output and as it sees no volts on it's output it suspects reverse polarity and doesn't start...that would be normal and a safety feature of the sterling unit.. I assume the shut down must reset this so it then works until it isolates again...
Similar to a bms on lithium batteries shutting the leisure battery output down and the battery to battery charger not working as it sees no voltage on the output..
Sterling provide a work around for that scenario but I'd be reluctant to use it until I understood the problem..
No real answers for you but a bit more to think about..
Andy.

 

[Pausim]

There seems to be limited public information about the HSM01. I certainly have little idea what happens inside it and fear my earlier comments may have been unhelpful. It might be an idea to ask Schaudt how to connect to it. I do not know if Udo Lang is still available but 2 years ago he answered my emails very quickly, in English, with all the information I needed for the problem I had. His email address was
Udo.Lang@schaudt-gmbh.de

 

[Bustup15]

The booster they talk about does appear to be their version or make of a battery to battery charger and must be installed if you have a euro 6 with smart alternator..similar reason for installing the sterling unit so it should work in the fashion they have described connecting it...?
I've had a quick look for any obvious differences in the instructions you posted the link to which might cause the issue you mentioned and the only one that I can see is that the schadut unit has sense wires connected to each battery bank..the Stirling doesn't use separate sensing circuitry..
The issue you have seems to be that the existing charging circuit isolates the leisure battery voltage from the battery to battery charger output and as it sees no volts on it's output it suspects reverse polarity and doesn't start...that would be normal and a safety feature of the sterling unit.. I assume the shut down must reset this so it then works until it isolates again...
Similar to a bms on lithium batteries shutting the leisure battery output down and the battery to battery charger not working as it sees no voltage on the output..
Sterling provide a work around for that scenario but I'd be reluctant to use it until I understood the problem..
No real answers for you but a bit more to think about..
Andy.

Andy

The HSM-01 manual is only in German, running through a translate program gives this additional info. I'm not clear what is meant by the installed at battery input rather than battery closed and I also can't see the bridges referred to A11, 12 or 13?

4.2.5 Booster operation
If a booster is installed at the starter battery input instead of the starter battery closed, the starter battery is not charged back via the booster
possible.
Instead, the starter battery must then be connected to the “+ SB charge” output.
be closed, and that the bridge A13 to A11 are plugged.
The starter battery is then charged past the booster.

Factory default: Bridge A13 set to A12; no booster is connected.

 

[andy63]

I would struggle to get my head round that if I was in front of me never mind like this..
I think I'd be doing as pausim suggests and contact schaudt..

The text above seems to be referring to the ability of the start battery to receive a charge from say mains charging or solar.. It seems under one configuration the battery to battery will allow this and under another it won't and the start battery has to be linked to a dedicated terminal for that to happen..


It would be good to know how you do resolve it?
Andy.

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[Bustup15]

I did email Schaudt last year when looking at the install but they didn't know the Sterling unit and supplied the German manual. I've tried them again this morning, will advise if I get any updates.

Careful what you wish for - you're only in Shields

 

[Pausim]

Udo speaks good English and gives clear advice, I had no trouble understanding his instructions.

 

[Pausim]

Are you using voltage sensing or D+ to activate your B2B. I found D+ far better on my last motorhome which had a smart alternator.

 

[Bustup15]

Are you using voltage sensing or D+ to activate your B2B. I found D+ far better on my last motorhome which had a smart alternator.

It's running in default at the minute, will go to D+ once I sort the issues.

 

[autorouter]

I don't have a solution to the OP's problem, but just to clarify a couple of points.

The function of the HSM-01 unit is to extend the EBL to carry the high currents that a standard EBL can't handle. EBL socket pins are limited to about 15A each. The HSM-01 can handle battery and high current circuits of up to 100A, and an inverter current of up to 250A. There is a suitably hefty shunt to measure all this current, and data cables between the EBL and the DT control panel to display and control it. The EBL continues to do its job with the pump, heating, lights etc.

The 'booster' in the diagram, WA121545, is indeed what we would call a B2B, in that it takes input from the alternator/starter battery and controls the voltage and current to the leisure battery to ensure a full charge. In theory a Sterling B2B doing the same job should connect in exactly the same way.

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[autorouter]

4.2.5 Booster operation
If a booster is installed at the starter battery input instead of the starter battery closed, the starter battery is not charged back via the booster
possible.
Instead, the starter battery must then be connected to the “+ SB charge” output.
be closed, and that the bridge A13 to A11 are plugged.
The starter battery is then charged past the booster.

Factory default: Bridge A13 set to A12; no booster is connected.

This is my reading of it, referring back to the German version

4.2.5 Booster Operation

If the starter battery input is connected to a booster instead of direct to the starter battery, then charging the starter battery by backflow through the booster is not possible.

Instead, the starter battery must then be connected to the "+SB Charge" output, and the terminals A13 and A11 must be bridged.

The starter battery charging can then bypass the booster.

Factory default: Terminals A13 and A12 bridged, no booster is connected.

The 'bridges' are what we would call jumpers, which are links to set alternative functions in hardware

 

[Bustup15]

This is my reading of it, referring back to the German version

4.2.5 Booster Operation

If the starter battery input is connected to a booster instead of direct to the starter battery, then charging the starter battery by backflow through the booster is not possible.

Instead, the starter battery must then be connected to the "+SB Charge" output, and the terminals A13 and A11 must be bridged.

The starter battery charging can then bypass the booster.

Factory default: Terminals A13 and A12 bridged, no booster is connected.

Anyone able to tell me where the terminals A12 and A13 are located?

 

[autorouter]

Anyone able to tell me where the terminals A12 and A13 are located?

It's number 6 in this diagram. However I don't think it's relevant to the problem.

 

[chrish]

The HSM01 has a relay between the Vehicle battery connection and the leisure batteries that is only engaged when the engine is running.
My guess of the reason for not working on the second start is that first start engages the relay and the b2b starts up when it sees the leisure batteries when the engine is stopped the b2b sees the leisure batteries disappear and faults.
I would connect direct to the batteries.

 

[Bustup15]

The HSM01 has a relay between the Vehicle battery connection and the leisure batteries that is only engaged when the engine is running.
My guess of the reason for not working on the second start is that first start engages the relay and the b2b starts up when it sees the leisure batteries when the engine is stopped the b2b sees the leisure batteries disappear and faults.
I would connect direct to the batteries.

Thata what I did and it works.

Apart from it no longer operates the fridge on 12v when engine is running. Is this the D+ that is missing and why? The connection from battery to HSM01 is the only thing that has changed

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[Pausim]

The HSM01 has a relay between the Vehicle battery connection and the leisure batteries that is only engaged when the engine is running.
My guess of the reason for not working on the second start is that first start engages the relay and the b2b starts up when it sees the leisure batteries when the engine is stopped the b2b sees the leisure batteries disappear and faults.
I would connect direct to the batteries.

That linking relay could be confusing the B2B and creating a loop i.e. B2B feeds leisure battery, leisure battery linked to and feeds back to engine battery and engine battery feeds B2B. In other words it could be feeding itself which if it is, is likely to confuse both the B2B and the vehicle ECU which is trying to regulate the engine battery.

 

[chrish]

I think you should reconnect the original connection from the vehicle battery to the HSM01 as that is what is feeding the EBL with the power to run the fridge when the engine is running ie. the D+ is present.

 

[Bustup15]

I think you should reconnect the original connection from the vehicle battery to the HSM01 as that is what is feeding the EBL with the power to run the fridge when the engine is running ie. the D+ is present.

And then feed back from the HSM01 as the input to the Sterling B2B instead of a direct connection from the engine battery?

 

[chrish]

And then feed back from the HSM01 as the input to the Sterling B2B instead of a direct connection from the engine battery?

I think the original connection should also feed the input (vehicle battery side) of the b2b. That way the b2b will be able to connecting the two batteries whilst the ignition is off if the b2b thinks its OK. And the EBL will get it's power for the fridge when the engine is running. Which I think is what you are saying Bustup15.

 

[Bustup15]

More help please ..... B2B

To see if i could get the on board master panel reading the engine battery and get a D+ to operate the fridge when engine running I had a rewire.

Before changing anything the B2B was working and charging but as I had removed the input from the HSM-01 I lost the D+ for fridge and volt reading for the engine battery.

Reconnected the battery input to HSM01 and fed the B2B back from the same position

Tested, B2B works, switched fridge on and it connected to 12v. Ran for a few minutes all ok. Turned engine off B2B ran for a short while and the closed down. Repeated above a few times feeling very ease with myself.

Closed down and had to remove the 3 ribbon cables from the HSM01 to refit the front cover as i had done on previous occassions. Lighting/12v normally drops out on removal of cables but a press on main panel turns them back on after reconnecting. Rechecked with engine running and all ok with B2B.

Happened to look at main panel and unable to turn 12v back on although the interior lights in van were still on, and then found the electric step didnt function? Lights that weren't on didn't function either. No sattelite controller, no Alde heating.

Front panel back off, remove and refit connections, no different.
Check EBL 50A fuses on HSM-01 ok
Check all EBL fuses - all ok.
Bank of fuses mounted adjacent to EBL as an extra but not marked up. 20A, 10A and 2* 2A. All ok but on reinserting final 2A fuse sounded lime a relay clicked in.

Now have all circuits back on (lights, step, USB, Fridge, Allde, sattelite but nothing on master panel so I cant see voltages, water levels and can't turn water pump on.

Strangely though all lighting circuits and USB sockets are live but am now unable to isolate them via the 12v switch on master panel.

Took the panel out but no fuses directly behind it that I can see.

I thought I had locked the panel out but now running out of ideas - anyone shed any light?

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