Start/stop battery as a leisure battery? (1 Viewer)

[NickandClair]

OK I have watched both videos in the first one he dismisses GEL because they are safe what is all that about? was he worried that they were going to come out too well in the second test so he didn't want them there?

The second test on the "nasty" Sterling cycle, is it really realistic to run a cycle test down to 10.5v surely a half decent inverter will cut out well before 10.5v @25A, doesn't the Lithium have a protection circuit to stop it being discharged too low? and then he stopped the test at 200 cycles and made the assumption that the lithium would go on for 1000 or even 2000 cycles.

Or did you just link it for comedy value and I am not supposed to take it quite so seriously

Martin

I believe that he implies that the Gel focuses more on safety, less on performance (not to say that safety should ever be compromised!!). I know this cannot be said about all Gel batteries (there are some good one's out there as some of you have proved), but I think he generalises on Gel batteries as a whole. I cannot comment why Gels weren't tested, but I'll ask him tomorrow when he comes in to visit .

The second test he does he clearly points out that this is by no means how a battery is used quite frequently. Most 12v distribution systems turn off at 11.7V, but of course you are still down in the amber range of battery voltage, where repeating this kind of discharge on conventional batteries will reduce cycle life. The test was stopped at 200 cycles for the comparison between the other batteries over that period. Now I cannot comment on exactly how many cycles these batteries have been through when they were beta tested initially, but putting a 5 year warranty on the product must be some sort of indication (unlike some Lithium and other batteries out there that have only 1-2 years). You also have to remember that an Li's output is a nominal one (in Sterling's units, they have a constant output of 12.8v before they simply shut down). Now I cannot comment about other people's product, but the AMPS Li's have a battery cut-off which protects them, along with many other safety protocols in place (as they have an internal BMS fitted as standard).
The problem I face here is that I have to go on what I know and so far (by spending time researching, checking going by all the feedback I am getting from customers) these Li are performing fantastically and going exactly what they say on the box and without major modifications to their M/h's.

 

[funflair]

I believe that he implies that the Gel focuses more on safety, less on performance (not to say that safety should ever be compromised!!). I know this cannot be said about all Gel batteries (there are some good one's out there as some of you have proved), but I think he generalises on Gel batteries as a whole. I cannot comment why Gels weren't tested, but I'll ask him tomorrow when he comes in to visit .

The second test he does he clearly points out that this is by no means how a battery is used quite frequently. Most 12v distribution systems turn off at 11.7V, but of course you are still down in the amber range of battery voltage, where repeating this kind of discharge on conventional batteries will reduce cycle life. The test was stopped at 200 cycles for the comparison between the other batteries over that period. Now I cannot comment on exactly how many cycles these batteries have been through when they were beta tested initially, but putting a 5 year warranty on the product must be some sort of indication (unlike some Lithium and other batteries out there that have only 1-2 years). You also have to remember that an Li's output is a nominal one (in Sterling's units, they have a constant output of 12.8v before they simply shut down). Now I cannot comment about other people's product, but the AMPS Li's have a battery cut-off which protects them, along with many other safety protocols in place (as they have an internal BMS fitted as standard).
The problem I face here is that I have to go on what I know and so far (by spending time researching, checking going by all the feedback I am getting from customers) these Li are performing fantastically and going exactly what they say on the box and without major modifications to their M/h's.

Hi

Thanks for that response, I believe that Lithium are the future but I might wait for the price to come down a bit yet as for me they don't outperform GEL by enough margin to make 100ah worth £1200, there again if I was really up against it on the weigh bridge and payload I could make a case for them luckily i'm not.

Martin

 

[NickandClair]

Hi

Thanks for that response, I believe that Lithium are the future but I might wait for the price to come down a bit yet as for me they don't outperform GEL by enough margin to make 100ah worth £1200, there again if I was really up against it on the weigh bridge and payload I could make a case for them luckily i'm not.

Martin

No problem Martin, the only points to make are that I cannot imagine that Li will come down much more, as the raw material is mined under licence so that tends to fix the price somewhat.
You've got me at a slight spot in that personally I cannot comment on the exacts of how long the Li we do will go, but on recent feedback on performance who knows (they must have confidence in the product by putting a 5 year warranty on them).

Nick

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[GPW]

(they must have confidence in the product by putting a 5 year warranty on them).

That's good to see, I've had hard used Lithiums in R/C models that are still good after 5 years.

Many lead acid also have 5 year warranties too of course, my last 95Ah Exide van battery (EA955) I bought from Tayna is still going too (no 5-year warranty on that but it was only £86 !).

 

[NickB]

I'm going for a 200ah lithium battery.
My van has a 325 watt LG Neon 2 solar panel and a 12v compressor fridge.
Luckily I don't need to purchase battery for 2-3 months.
Their current extreamly high price reflects the R&D costs.
Lithium battery prices are only going one way ⤵.

I won't save much in 3 months but I'm convinced there is an advantage in using them now.

 

[GPW]

I'm not convinced, but good luck!
Check with your insurer first BTW, if was was underwriting a van I'd not pay out on a lithium battery fire.

Fit a smoke alarm at the same time and work out a fast way to evacuate your van if it goes off in the middle of the night.

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[Wildbill]

Leisure batteries have thicker plates to cope with the different demands to starter batteries.

Do they I have used both and thay work just as well either as starter or lesuer my berlingo has had a leisure battery to start it now for three years two years with me and one year with my son and still going strong I used a starter battery for for years on one of my vans without issues as a leisure battery
Thare exact the Sam just label difrantly and extra put on price
Bill

 

[NickB]

GPW... Interesting but I think maybe a little out of date information.
All modern lithium 3000+ cycles batteries have BMS and indiviual cell fuses and flameproof compartments.
My understanding is that manufacturers recognised the potential dangers and have integrated several fail safe features.
I'll check with my insurer again to confirm, when I discussed this in November 2018 no concern was raised?

 

[Pausim]

I'm not convinced, but good luck!
Check with your insurer first BTW, if was was underwriting a van I'd not pay out on a lithium battery fire.

Fit a smoke alarm at the same time and work out a fast way to evacuate your van if it goes off in the middle of the night.

LiFePO4 batteries are probably less hazardous than lead acid ones. No nasty concentrated acid to splash around in an accident, no explosive gases released when charging goes wrong and do not contain any dangerous chemicals. Not to be confused with other types of lithium batteries (used in some phones cars and aeroplanes) which have an entirely different chemistry.

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[GPW]

no explosive gases released when charging goes wrong

LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lithium+battery+fire+charging

I'm not saying 'don't get one', it's your money, I'm just saying: 'take sensible precautions for your own safety'.

 

[NickB]

NASA's current position on batteries in oxygen rich space use.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiDwNSHoarhAhVMxhoKHRR-C8cQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/17/17681422/nasa-lithium-ion-batteries-thermal-runaway-human-spaceflight&psig=AOvVaw3RYarK-QLDhxIBdm32cNe1&ust=1554048801875412

Should be ok in my Ducato?

 

[leggings]

I have two 95 Excide stop start batteries. Bought them five years ago in France when my previous ones gave up the ghost, they are still going great. They have been reliable, fast to charge, they hold charge well when not in use and I have never had a problem with them when off EHU for four or five days at a time in the summer months and two or three days on the winter. I have a 100 watt solar panel to support them but of course that’s not much good in the winter. I don’t know how long I can expect them to last but at the moment they seem good as new so I am happy with them and would replace them with similar batteries.

I have two Exide Gel batteries plus
a B2B charger. They’ve been in 13 years and still going strong.

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[MitchandJenny]

I bought 2x 105a/h LiFepo4’s from FOGSTAR a UK company.
Yes they were £380 each but they have internal Bluetooth to my phone, internal heaters, I can discharge them down to a silly
levels, they weigh less than 1/2 the 2 lead acids they replaced and required no adaptation, just drop in and connect.
Great back up on the phone from FOGSTAR.
Now don’t have worry off grid about TV etc.
Just sayin.
Mitch.

 

[Lenny HB]

and required no adaptation,

I don't agree with that you will never get the best out of them.

 

[MitchandJenny]

I don't agree with that you will never get the best out of them.

Ok mate.
Your opinion is as valid as anyone else’s.
Mitch

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[eddie]

Ok mate.
Your opinion is as valid as anyone else’s.
Mitch

Mitch, out of interest, who told you no adaptation was necessary?

I’ve tilted at this particular windmill for some time, and find the phrase “Drop in” in big text on adverts, and “suitable existing equipment” in smaller text at the bottom.

Fogstar are quite clear on their website

“How do I charge my Drift battery?

You can charge your Drift Leisure battery in a number of ways;

• Using a multi-stage LiFePO4 mains charger
• Using Solar panels and an MPPT controller
• As part of a B2B or DC-DC charger set-up

The recommended voltage for charging a lithium leisure battery is between 13.5V - 13.8V Float to 14.2v - 14.4V Bulk.

We recommend Victron equipment is set to a Float of 13.5V and 14.2V Bulk.

Going above this range for significant periods of time can damage the battery. The current level during charging is also important. Charging a lithium battery at a current level that is too high can shorten its lifespan or even cause it to overheat and catch fire.

The recommended charging current for a lithium leisure battery is typically around 20-30% of the battery's capacity. For example, if the battery has a capacity of 100Ah, the recommended charging current would be around 20-30 amps. We have designed a range of Fogstar Drift chargers to work in cohesion with our battery range, you will find these here. ”

 

[MitchandJenny]

My Sargent 500 PSU charges at 14.4v
I checked this with Sargent before I purchased.

 

[eddie]

My Sargent 500 PSU charges at 14.4v
I checked this with Sargent before I purchased.

I’d rather beLieve the battery manufacturer personally!

I’m not trying to argue, just help

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[MitchandJenny]

That’s fine.
They have been on my van over a year and are doing nicely thanks.
Mitch

 

[bigtree]

I bought 2x 105a/h LiFepo4’s from FOGSTAR a UK company.
Yes they were £380 each but they have internal Bluetooth to my phone, internal heaters, I can discharge them down to a silly
levels, they weigh less than 1/2 the 2 lead acids they replaced and required no adaptation, just drop in and connect.
Great back up on the phone from FOGSTAR.
Now don’t have worry off grid about TV etc.
Just sayin.
Mitch.

I think you would have got a better deal if you had bought from Offgrid Power Solutions, you get 10% discount being a member on here.

 

[MitchandJenny]

Thanks for retrospective info bigtree, but I’m sorted thanks.
Wish I hadn’t put my post on this topic in at all.
Just sayin.
Mitch

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[bigtree]

Thanks for retrospective info bigtree, but I’m sorted thanks.
Wish I hadn’t put my post on this topic in at all.
Just sayin.
Mitch

If it’s any consolation I didn’t buy my Fogstar from them either as I didn’t know about them or that they are members on here, I did buy my Victron solar controller from them though once I knew.