Speeding in North yorkshire. (1 Viewer)

[EssexBoy]

It may well be contracted out to consultants (as @peterc10 pointed out earlier) but so what? The work is still done by professionally qualified engineers.
They work on real evidence rather than just an "impression" based on what "seems to be".

And I still stand by my view that engineers work to a brief.
If that brief from the LA is "slow the average speed down by 20mph" then the engineer is going to design and deliver a compliant scheme.
The engineer would have to have sizeable kahunas to argue against that brief, wouldn't he?
And the LA would likely ignore his objections anyway, as society has taught the LA that speed is always very bad and they can only possibly win from restricting it...

 

[GJH]

And I still stand by my view that engineers work to a brief.
If that brief from the LA is "slow the average speed down by 20mph" then the engineer is going to design and deliver a compliant scheme.
The engineer would have to have sizeable kahunas to argue against that brief, wouldn't he?
And the LA would likely ignore his objections anyway, as society has taught the LA that speed is always very bad and they can only possibly win from restricting it...

The engineer would not be given that brief. The brief would be to find a way to reduce accidents.
Been there and seen it.

 

[GJH]

And a far larger, in the extreme, proportion arent.

Granted, John, but how much traffic do you get on some of those roads compared to 30 limit ones in built up areas?

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[iandsm]

I don’t really understand why there is a perceived problem with cars being unable to be driven at low speeds, 30 Or below. I have never had problem and my latest car a 2ltr Golf is happy at any speed between 0 and its top speed. Surely it down to selecting the right gear for the job, that’s what a gearbox is for surely.

My Motorhome is also easily drivable at any speed provided the right gear is selected.

Perhaps I am missing something but I really cannot see a problem.

 

[EssexBoy]

Granted, John, but how much traffic do you get on some of those roads compared to 30 limit ones in built up areas?

But isn't that the point Graham. At the merest hint of traffic (and not necessarily in the public interest) the limit sudenly becomes 30mph...

 

[tonyidle]

Interesting. As a large proportion of the roads on which we all drive are subject to a 30 mph limit (and have been as long as most of us can remember) shouldn't we be able to expect that any car sold in this country would cope well with that speed?

They can cope well. That doesn't mean that they don't run more easily at cruising speed. Urban limits are an essential part of safety design where pedestrians (should) have priority and no other consideration can or should top that. But the number of out-of-town roads limited to less than 60mph is on the increase and it's here that ease of flow, economy, and emissions considerations should be further up the list than they appear to be.

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[EssexBoy]

The engineer would not be given that brief. The brief would be to find a way to reduce accidents.
Been there and seen it.

OK. I give up....

I bow to your all encompassing definitive knowledge of all traffic management projects & their scope ever conducted in the UK

I am still of the mind that we are spending a disproportionate amount on a relative small issue (speeding that is accidents are bad driving) & I would rather we spent the money on bigger issues..

Thank you and goodnight !!!!

 

[tonyidle]

I don’t really understand why there is a perceived problem with cars being unable to be driven at low speeds, 30 Or below. I have never had problem and my latest car a 2ltr Golf is happy at any speed between 0 and its top speed. Surely it down to selecting the right gear for the job, that’s what a gearbox is for surely.

My Motorhome is also easily drivable at any speed provided the right gear is selected.

As is any vehicle - I wasn't talking about urban limits. But would you like to drive almost permanently in anything other than top gear for endless miles on an A class road? There are many fewer 2 litre cars than there were a few years ago - an excellent recent example being a Peugeot (I think) people carrier being offered with a 1.2 litre engine.

 

[tonyidle]

The engineer would not be given that brief. The brief would be to find a way to reduce accidents.
Been there and seen it.

In that case why is speed reduction seen as the answer?

See Page 5:

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/463043/rrcgb2014-02.pdf

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[gus-lopez]

In that case why is speed reduction seen as the answer?

See Page 5:

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/463043/rrcgb2014-02.pdf

I see a greater % of pedestrians are more dangerous than drivers speeding.

 

[GJH]

In that case why is speed reduction seen as the answer?

See Page 5:

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/463043/rrcgb2014-02.pdf

Travelling too fast for the conditions is pretty obvious. Failure to look properly, failure to judge other person's path or speed and loss of control could easily be a result of excessive speed.

As is any vehicle - I wasn't talking about urban limits. But would you like to drive almost permanently in anything other than top gear for endless miles on an A class road? There are many fewer 2 litre cars than there were a few years ago - an excellent recent example being a Peugeot (I think) people carrier being offered with a 1.2 litre engine.

Most of our A road driving (in both motorhome with 2.8 litre diesel engine and car with 1.2 litre engine) is done in top gear. I don't see the problem either.

 

[EssexBoy]

In that case why is speed reduction seen as the answer?

See Page 5:

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/463043/rrcgb2014-02.pdf

Thank you Tony....
7% of accidents are attributable to speed...

I can confirm that there is no link between not looking and speed - been there and seen it - the guy that knocked me off my motorbike (and I) were only doing 25mph when he didn't look...

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[iandsm]

As is any vehicle - I wasn't talking about urban limits. But would you like to drive almost permanently in anything other than top gear for endless miles on an A class road? There are many fewer 2 litre cars than there were a few years ago - an excellent recent example being a Peugeot (I think) people carrier being offered with a 1.2 litre engine.

I don’t really get that, why wouldn’t you be in top gear on a clear non urban road for endless miles. I am not sure engine size matters more than selecting the right gear. A 1.2 car can easily be driven at anything between 30 or thereabouts up to its top speed in top gear.

My Golf never gets into 6Th gear (top) in town but is really happy on top when doing over 60mph. If I am going slower I select the appropriate gear. So long as speed is matched with gear all is well.

Sorry but I don’t understand your point.

 

[tonyidle]

Travelling too fast for the conditions is pretty obvious. Failure to look properly, failure to judge other person's path or speed and loss of control could easily be a result of excessive speed.

Most of our A road driving (in both motorhome with 2.8 litre diesel engine and car with 1.2 litre engine) is done in top gear. I don't see the problem either.

Me neither - I drive at the (60mph) limit. 50mph and slower means using lower gears which isn't an issue other than the pro rata increase in fuel consumption and emissions. Being able to travel at lower speeds (or not) wasn't the issue I commented on.

The Police in their accident investigations, from which the statistics are derived, presumably mention speed where it is a contributory factor?

Speed (any speed at all) can be reduced and reduction will to an extent reduce the number of accidents. Happily reducing speed will make injury resulting from those accidents that do occur less severe. A definite win wouldn't you say? If you continue reducing accidents and injuries by lowering the speed limit (and I've no doubt you can) where should the line be drawn? There is a very strong case for low urban limits (and their enforcement - which almost never occurs) because of the risk to pedestrians. There's an even better case for 20mph where children are playing or leaving a school (again little enforcement). But on open, and in the main well-engineered, roads 60mph is a good compromise. Any less should not be needed. Driver incompetence should be addressed but it's neither easy nor profitable to undertake. Reliance on the blunt instrument of speed control does not address the reasons for accidents - it simply makes money and allows poor behaviour on the roads to continue unchecked.

 

[tonyidle]

A 1.2 car can easily be driven at anything between 30 or thereabouts up to its top speed in top gear

Not in my experience. Unless you live in an exceptionally flat part of the country.

You are absolutely correct. My point isn't that driving in an appropriate gear is difficult but that if it is one of the lower gears both economy and emissions are increased.

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[PeteH]

Long past time to change it then

The entrenched positions of unqualified Bureaucrats, especially those in L-A`s, who deign to make decisions without reference to any sort of Common sense, Is well known in our part of the world. Too many swanning off to (usually warmer) parts of the world on "Information Gathering" exercises?, road humps in side roads where there are NO kids?, a 250,000 pound cycle track non of them use?.

BUT If I want a Frosted window in the en-suite at the front of my proposed home, They can find the time to say a resounding NO, because it wont "look" Right!. And, this is the same "official" who "stated" that "I must use the same bricks as the original" On a rendered and painted building?. Cretins all of them, time serving jobsworths.

 

[GJH]

The entrenched positions of unqualified Bureaucrats, especially those in L-A`s, who deign to make decisions without reference to any sort of Common sense, Is well known in our part of the world. Too many swanning off to (usually warmer) parts of the world on "Information Gathering" exercises?, road humps in side roads where there are NO kids?, a 250,000 pound cycle track non of them use?.

BUT If I want a Frosted window in the en-suite at the front of my proposed home, They can find the time to say a resounding NO, because it wont "look" Right!. And, this is the same "official" who "stated" that "I must use the same bricks as the original" On a rendered and painted building?. Cretins all of them, time serving jobsworths.

The usual "Please Mam those other boys won't let me do what I want and it isn't fair" response that you post time after time.

 

[GJH]

Speed (any speed at all) can be reduced and reduction will to an extent reduce the number of accidents. Happily reducing speed will make injury resulting from those accidents that do occur less severe. A definite win wouldn't you say? If you continue reducing accidents and injuries by lowering the speed limit (and I've no doubt you can) where should the line be drawn? There is a very strong case for low urban limits (and their enforcement - which almost never occurs) because of the risk to pedestrians. There's an even better case for 20mph where children are playing or leaving a school (again little enforcement). But on open, and in the main well-engineered, roads 60mph is a good compromise. Any less should not be needed. Driver incompetence should be addressed but it's neither easy nor profitable to undertake. Reliance on the blunt instrument of speed control does not address the reasons for accidents - it simply makes money and allows poor behaviour on the roads to continue unchecked.

I agree. Is speed restriction on A roads merely a blunt instrument though?
The new restriction on the A149 is for a specific stretch, in response to a specific identified problem. It reminds me of a similar one on the A171 on the way to Guisborough, where the road layout was deliberately (and successfully) re-engineered in response to a number of crashes at a junction.
The 50 mph restriction on the A66 between Stockton and Teesport is there specifically because of the number of junctions on that stretch.

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[PeteH]

I don’t really understand why there is a perceived problem with cars being unable to be driven at low speeds, 30 Or below. I have never had problem and my latest car a 2ltr Golf is happy at any speed between 0 and its top speed. Surely it down to selecting the right gear for the job, that’s what a gearbox is for surely.

My Motorhome is also easily drivable at any speed provided the right gear is selected.

Perhaps I am missing something but I really cannot see a problem.

I can do the same, in a manual vehicle it is not an issue, (and I expect that the fuel consumption will still drop too). What you have overlooked is the fact that the vehicle in which I had the experience, when I first realised that 50mph compromised fuel efficiency, had a robotised box which was designed NOT to shift to the highest (6th) gear below 52 to 54 MPH, even if put into "manual" mode!. It is IMV a direct result of the trend to "economy" forced on Manufacturers, I suspect that the ratio was such that continual use below those speeds would damage the engine and drive train.

 

[PeteH]

The usual "Please Mam those other boys won't let me do what I want and it isn't fair" response that you post time after time.

If there was LOGIC in their decisions It would not be so funny (or pathetic)

 

[PeteH]

Her indoors Found this:- on U-Tube.

Somehow seems appropriate.

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[GJH]

If there was LOGIC in their decisions It would not be so funny (or pathetic)

It would also help if people understood the full picture rather than just the little elements which suited them.
Council officers are human so they do make mistakes (and they are hamstrung, sometimes, by the political decisions made by councillors voted in by idiots) but the majority are qualified professionals and do a professional job within the legislative boundaries laid down by parliament.

 

[Paddywack]

The entrenched positions of unqualified Bureaucrats, especially those in L-A`s, who deign to make decisions without reference to any sort of Common sense, Is well known in our part of the world. Too many swanning off to (usually warmer) parts of the world on "Information Gathering" exercises?, road humps in side roads where there are NO kids?, a 250,000 pound cycle track non of them use?.

BUT If I want a Frosted window in the en-suite at the front of my proposed home, They can find the time to say a resounding NO, because it wont "look" Right!. And, this is the same "official" who "stated" that "I must use the same bricks as the original" On a rendered and painted building?. Cretins all of them, time serving jobsworths.

I'm surprised that you've never stood for public office ? If you want to right these wrongs that clearly give you such concern, your time would be better spent getting other like minded local people to support your stance and resolving the issue from inside the tent.

 

[tonyidle]

Is speed restriction on A roads merely a blunt instrument though?

There are always exceptions - though if the junctions are correctly designed (good sight-lines and slip roads where needed) accidents are invariably caused by poor driving. Near here we had a carefully engineered 'black spot'. A dual carriageway by-passed a small sleepy village with many elderly residents. Access to the village was a tee junction directly off the dual carriageway - no slip roads and fairly narrow central gap. After numerous T bone and rear end accidents at least one of which resulted in a fatality it was re-designed with a roundabout with one carriageway narrowed to a single lane on the approach to it. And just to be certain a 50 limit on both approaches. No accidents since. It took more than 10 years to correct that particular problem. Poor driving caused the accidents but they should have been foreseen. The road is the one to Barrow and the junction accesses Greenodd.

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[GJH]

There are always exceptions - though if the junctions are correctly designed (good sight-lines and slip roads where needed) accidents are invariably caused by poor driving. Near here we had a carefully engineered 'black spot'. A dual carriageway by-passed a small sleepy village with many elderly residents. Access to the village was a tee junction directly off the dual carriageway - no slip roads and fairly narrow central gap. After numerous T bone and rear end accidents at least one of which resulted in a fatality it was re-designed with a roundabout with one carriageway narrowed to a single lane on the approach to it. And just to be certain a 50 limit on both approaches. No accidents since. It took more than 10 years to correct that particular problem. Poor driving caused the accidents but they should have been foreseen. The road is the one to Barrow and the junction accesses Greenodd.

Similar to the Easingwold bypass on the A19. Original T junction was warned against by residents and professionals but councillors wanted to save money, as did many ratepayers. It was eventually replaced by a roundabout.

 

[iandsm]

I can do the same, in a manual vehicle it is not an issue, (and I expect that the fuel consumption will still drop too). What you have overlooked is the fact that the vehicle in which I had the experience, when I first realised that 50mph compromised fuel efficiency, had a robotised box which was designed NOT to shift to the highest (6th) gear below 52 to 54 MPH, even if put into "manual" mode!. It is IMV a direct result of the trend to "economy" forced on Manufacturers, I suspect that the ratio was such that continual use below those speeds would damage the engine and drive train.

Presumably it wouldn’t shift even in manual mode because 6th would not be the appropriate gear. Yes fuel efficiency might be compromised but I doubt there is any vehicle which will make proper progress in too high a gear, the engine will labour and will use more fuel.

Did you enquire if the manufacturer whether your fears of damage were correct?

 

[gus-lopez]

which isn't an issue other than the pro rata increase in fuel consumption and emissions.

Which defeats the object of small engined multi geared vehicles to reduce emissions & improve mpg.

because of the risk to pedestrians.

Who really need educating in pavement use & how to cross a road .

Driver incompetence should be addressed but it's neither easy nor profitable to undertake.

Far more incompetent pedestrians. & In many other EU countries the UK habit of wandering across a road will get the gun pulled on you & fired if you do not stop.
Even here they have no introduced rules & instant 80€ fine for crossing a road anywhere where you should not, or against a red light. Additionally you can also be breathalysed with limits the same
as for car drivers.

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[PeteH]

Most L-A`s can`t even fill potholes, they just put out a sign, which then excuses them if someone does have a wrecked wheel or damaged suspension!. Never mind doing anything as "technical" as a proper assessment. "knee Jerk" is good enough, it ticks the political boxes, and we can all go back to tea and biccys.

 

[tonyidle]

Which defeats the object of small engined multi geared vehicles to reduce emissions & improve mpg.

Who really need educating in pavement use & how to cross a road .

Far more incompetent pedestrians. & In many other EU countries the UK habit of wandering across a road will get the gun pulled on you & fired if you do not stop.
Even here they have no introduced rules & instant 80€ fine for crossing a road anywhere where you should not, or against a red light. Additionally you can also be breathalysed with limits the same
as for car drivers.

A bit Draconian though. I think it's reasonable to give pedestrians priority in areas subject to 30 limits and most definitely in 20s. It doesn't absolve the pedestrians from their responsibility though.

I once had a Policemans gun pulled on me in Spain - at the time Franco was in charge. A friend and I were strolling along the beach just after dark. We were a fair distance away so although we could see a Policeman waving we couldn't hear what he said. So after a minute or two he pulled his gun and waved that so we hurried towards him. It seems it was against the law to be on the beach after sunset.

 

[Wee Bold Davy]

Mobile cameras, the only time we see cops here in Mid Wales

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