Speed Limits - GOV.UK (1 Viewer)

[PP Bear]

Having a chat at work with one of my guys and we're talking about motorhome speed limits etc, so I call up the GOV.UK site and the limits are clearly posted for us to see

Fine at this point and then read down the page reference motorhomes being classed as goods vehicles if:
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:

• carry goods for exhibition and sale
• are used as a workshop
• are used for storage

Sooooooooo, what exactly does the last statement mean "are used for storage" - I keep me pants, socks and other items from my 70,s wardrobe in my motorhome, is that classed as storage?

So the question is this, what exactly does that statement mean???

 

[2657]

On most government information sites there is a disclaimer along the lines of :-

"The information in this document is a summary of the Department’s understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice."

So that clears that up then

 

[Stroppy Bird]

I suspect that you probably only really need to worry about the opinion of the fashion police

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[Silver-Fox]

I suspect that you probably only really need to worry about the opinion of the fashion police

Storage as in a commercial sense i would guess

 

[TheCaller]

I'm curious as to the definition of a workshop too. In general use, it implies tools, spanners & the like. But these days my tools are a laptop, a notepad & a pencil.

I don't think I'll loose too much sleep over it & I certainly can't be bothered to try & decipher the Act itself.

 

[keith]

Don't worry about it they are all too busy trying to catch the foreign drivers that just don't bother with the UK regs.

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[DLT]

For Gain

 

[DBK]

For Gain

I agree. It's a bit like how HMRC view folk who trade on eBay. If you are trading with the intention of making a profit then you must declare your earnings and potentially pay any liability for tax on them.

However, if you are just selling your old junk and probably selling them at a loss they are not interested.

 

[GJH]

On most government information sites there is a disclaimer along the lines of :-

"The information in this document is a summary of the Department’s understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice."

So that clears that up then

Not most, all. They have to say that otherwise people would use their opinion as a defence for knowingly breaking the law.

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[2657]

Not most, all. They have to say that otherwise people would use their opinion as a defence for knowingly breaking the law.

Not being a lawyer and only vaguely understanding the difference between the legislature and the judiciary, though I do understand the reasons for them being separate, it seems a very complicated and unwieldy system.

The legislature brings in a law which the various arms of the civil service interpret in different ways, where does that leave us, pig in the middle that's where!!

Individuals cannot possibly afford to take a case to the high courts for rulings so we have to follow the interpretation, and pay the fines for offences, that may not be offences according to the interpretation of others, sometimes in the same department.

Hope that makes sense........no wonder we need so many lawyers

 

[GJH]

Not being a lawyer and only vaguely understanding the difference between the legislature and the judiciary, though I do understand the reasons for them being separate, it seems a very complicated and unwieldy system.

If you could find a better system you would be a rich man

The main problem is that laws are written in English, which is often imprecise as we know. Ergo the opportunity for multiple interpretations. A good example is that of CL usage discussed earlier this month. As you say, no wonder we need so many lawyers

In most cases the interpretations arrived at by public servants are correct. These days forums such as this one exist for various legislative areas (I used to belong to some for Data Protection and FoI) and the combined experience of practitioners helps. However, they have to add the disclaimer just in case they are found to be wrong.

 

[PP Bear]

Fellow Funsters, many thanks for all the posts, but haven't a clue what you're on about, soooooooooo I'm nowhere nearer knowing what the interpretation of "used for storage" means

In plain English please

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[vwalan]

you can find its not expensive to argue .
i argued a speeding sign a few years ago . handled the magistrates court myself then had a soliciter and barraster on a no win no fee basis . if you have a good case there are lots out there . took 5 magistrate court do,s and 3 crown court do,s . but i won .
as for storage . you store your own items in the vehicle . ?
yes or no?
the answer is yes .
they are also your goods or burden .

 

[Badknee]

At work we were given a load of bumf about speed limits of 50 single, 60 dual, 70 m/ways which is fine and the regulation states that these limits are for vans that have no car derivatives, eg. Astra van, fiesta van, berlingo van and so on. But where that takes the mini bus ones I don't know, is it a car? Is it a plane? No it's super tranny!

 

[Silver-Fox]

I understand a mini bus, camper van and some combi vans come under a different classification ie not under the hgv ruling.

This means 70 mph on a dual carriage way, ie a two lane road with a permanent barrier down the middle between the opposite traveling carriage ways

Hope that helps

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[PP Bear]

I understand a mini bus, camper van and some combi vans come under a different classification ie not under the hgv ruling.

This means 70 mph on a dual carriage way, ie a two lane road with a permanent barrier down the middle between the opposite traveling carriage ways

Hope that helps

That all depends on the weight of the motorhome. It's clearly stated on their Gov.UK site

 

[TheCaller]

..... and then we start the fun of defining & establishing unladen weight.

 

[Tootles]

Fellow Funsters, many thanks for all the posts, but haven't a clue what you're on about, soooooooooo I'm nowhere nearer knowing what the interpretation of "used for storage" means

In plain English please

It's like this PP. If you use your motorhome to STORE unwanted goods, (Wife, dog, Russian Hat, porn mags, Rupert the Bear costume), then that counts as 'goods and chattels'. Then your a trader.

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[buttons]

It would be interesting to see what tax class many of the traders are on at shows. Many I would think would cover all three of the criteria given.

 

[bernardfeay]

Assuming the speed limits will be enforced by radar I doubt the ability of such a device to weigh a motorhome. I take a rather relaxed approach and I have not had a speeding ticket for a very long time.

 

[Tootles]

Assuming the speed limits will be enforced by radar I doubt the ability of such a device to weigh a motorhome. I take a rather relaxed approach and I have not had a speeding ticket for a very long time.

Weight being the moot point. It seems that unless your MH resembles a drag racer at the start of an event, your not going to get stopped and weighed in this country.
Which is probably just as well.........

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[Fireman Sam]

Sooooooooo, what exactly does the last statement mean "are used for storage" - I keep me pants, socks and other items from my 70,s wardrobe in my motorhome, is that classed as storage?

The ruling on storage is, in my opinion, a pile of pants. I hope this helps.

 

[PP Bear]

It's like this PP. If you use your motorhome to STORE unwanted goods, (Wife, dog, Russian Hat, porn mags, Rupert the Bear costume), then that counts as 'goods and chattels'. Then your a trader.

Blimey, who told you about my Rupert the Bear costume!! Have you gassed me at some stage

 

[PORKSTER]

Stopped 3 times for weight in my sprinter conversion That gave me a sweat on

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[johnp10]

..... and then we start the fun of defining & establishing unladen weight.

Simple.

"Unladen" gets confused by many with "Unloaded".

Unladen Weight is the weight of the vehicle as it rolls off a production line.
It does not include the weight of oils, lubricants, fuel, spare wheel, tools, driver or any load.
If differing bodies are to be used, ULW is measured / calculated as having the heaviest body.
It is determined by the vehicle manufacturer and is used to identify taxation class, also to determine the MGW.
(Motor car / Heavy motor car / tractor / locomotive etc.)
A vehicle can't be stripped down to check unladen weight, it isn't possible.
Probably found on the vehicle's Type Approval Certificate.

"Kerbside weight" is next.
This is the weight of the vehicle complete with fuels, lubricants, tools, spare wheel, etc., but without any load.
This is what many think is the unladen weight.

MGW. Maximum Gross weight is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle, crew and load on the road.

MTW Maximum Train Weight is the above, plus the permissible weight of any trailer and its load.

 

[peterc10]

Most motorhomes now seem to quote 2 weights: MIRO (mass in running order) and MTPLM (maximum technically permissible laden weight).

MIRO includes the weight of the motorhome when it left the factory (i.e. including all lubricants) plus a full tank of fuel and an allowance of 75kg for the driver. I used to think that it also included a full water tank and gas bottles, but this site says otherwise.

The MTPLM is the maximum amount which your fully laden motorhome can weigh and still be legal to drive.

Payload is then the difference between MTPLM and MIRO.

Our problem is that none of these figures appear to be the "maximum unladen weight" referred to in the government website. Any idea how you can find it?

Anyway thanks for the original post. I always thought that motorhomes had the same speed limits as cars if they had a MTPLM of less than 3,500kg, but that is clearly wrong. As I now understand it that figure is the difference between LGVs (cars, vans and motorhomes) and HGVs as far as vehicle excise duty is concerned.

 

[johnp10]

Ok.
The only differences are in terminology

MIRO is the weight it left the converter.
In essence, it's the Kerbside weight.

MTLPM / MAN are the same thing as GVW / GTW.

Unloaded weight isn't worth worrying about in terms of speed limits.
It's one of the criteria used to determine GVW, which is the marker for speed limits

Unloaded weight is something you may need to check on the base vehicle's Type Approval Certificate.
If you should need this, can't think why you would, contact the base vehicle manufacturer.

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[peterc10]

Ok.
The only differences are in terminology

MIRO is the weight it left the converter.
In essence, it's the Kerbside weight.

MTLPM / MAN are the same thing as GVW / GTW.

Unloaded weight isn't worth worrying about in terms of speed limits.
It's one of the criteria used to determine GVW, which is the marker for speed limits

Unloaded weight is something you may need to check on the base vehicle's Type Approval Certificate.
If you should need this, can't think why you would, contact the base vehicle manufacturer.

No MIRO is not the weight it leaves the converter, because it also includes a full tank of fuel and an allowance of 75kg for the driver - see the link I posted in my post.

And if you look at the government site linked in the original post you will see that the speed limits depend upon what they call the "maximum unladen weight" not the GVW or MTPLM. And that figure is 3050kg not 3500kg. Hence my question.

 

[johnp10]

I described MIRO as the weight it left the converter, likened it to Kerbside weight, which includes fuel.
Terminology isn't worth splitting hairs over.

For Unladen weight you need to go to the manufacturer of the base vehicle.

Yes, speed limits are based on ULW, but are applied according to GVW / MAM or whatever you want to call it.
Given that a vehicle cannot be stripped to its bones to check ULW why worry about it?
As I said earlier, it's more significant in determining the type of vehicle it is.

 

[Badknee]

We will be keeping to the 3500 kgs ruling of 30-50-60-70 same as my works van so no problems remembering.

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