Smart car towing (2 Viewers)

[PeteH]

Spanish fine dismissal taken from the downloads on caratows site
Link Removed

Thanks, There you Go Minxy. BTW thanks for your input on my Upgrading, E-mail went yesterday, so we await !.

P.s. I am another "Born on Hessle Road lad!".

Pete

 

[Gorse Hill]

I don't understand the 'logic' of starting a thread about how wonderful an a-frame is (which I admit can be a very useful way to tow a car around with you) without then being willing to provide the information requested regarding the rescinding of the fines received in the EU.

Whilst towing a car isn't something I would do at the present time simply because I don't need to (although we used to have a classic Bond Minicar which we did tow on a 'bar' arrangement, similar to the principle of an a-frame) others do, so this information would be very beneficial to them if they wish to take their cars abroad.

As it appears I am being 'ignored' by Charlie can anyone else point me in the right direction of the 2 cases that Charlie refers to that had the fined quashed?

I give information, and go out of my way, to research it even if it doesn't affect me, so that fellow funsters can benefit from what I find, so it would be good to have someone else, who already has the information, provide it for others too.

Iooks like your on Charlie's ignore list MG

 

[Minxy]

Thanks, There you Go Minxy. BTW thanks for your input on my Upgrading,

Not sure what the comment means .... can you explain please as I actually gave you full details of the chap/where you get the info???

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Minxy]

Iooks like your on Charlie's ignore list MG

Obviously, fine by me if it make him happy!

 

[Minxy]

Spanish fine dismissal taken from the downloads on caratows site
Link Removed

Personally I don't think that I'd put my total trust in something that was to do with a case from 1996 (ie 20 years ago!) especially since there would have been much less a-frame towing going on so may have been a 'less enforced' fine. I am also not sure exactly what the fine was levied for as the translation says the offence committed was "towing a broken down vehicle with another vehicle not intended for this purpose", it therefore makes me wonder if the original person who was fined 'claimed' the car had broken down and that is why it was being towed as well, as claiming it 'turned' it into a trailer.

As there are instances where fines for towing with an a-frame have been levied much more recently I'd be interested to hear if there are any of these more recent ones which have been rescinded along with the exact reason for the fine in the first place, and what the fined person 'claimed' they were doing towing the car - ie normal practice or recovering a broken down vehicle. Any one any info on any of these?

 

[Gorse Hill]

Obviously, fine by me if it make him happy!

Am sure you will be ok MG, it's fair to say you do go out of your way to help others with info which is nice

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Just smiffy]

one point that I think has not been discussed here is that if it is illegal to tow a car on an a-frame in a particular country and you had an accident, would you be in breach of your insurance conditions and they could refuse to pay out...?

 

[Gorse Hill]

one point that I think has not been discussed here is that if it is illegal to tow a car on an a-frame in a particular country and you had an accident, would you be in breach of your insurance conditions and they could refuse to pay out...?

Technically yes I would have thought, good point sas

 

[big map]

Personally I don't think that I'd put my total trust in something that was to do with a case from 1996 (ie 20 years ago!) especially since there would have been much less a-frame towing going on so may have been a 'less enforced' fine. I am also not sure exactly what the fine was levied for as the translation says the offence committed was "towing a broken down vehicle with another vehicle not intended for this purpose", it therefore makes me wonder if the original person who was fined 'claimed' the car had broken down and that is why it was being towed as well, as claiming it 'turned' it into a trailer.

As there are instances where fines for towing with an a-frame have been levied much more recently I'd be interested to hear if there are any of these more recent ones which have been rescinded along with the exact reason for the fine in the first place, and what the fined person 'claimed' they were doing towing the car - ie normal practice or recovering a broken down vehicle. Any one any info on any of these?

We were fined a couple of years ago as stated previously and demonstrated with photo of notice, which explains the exact reason for the fine, however I decided not to fight it because a) life's too short to waste time on something so trivial and b) the fine was so little it more than covered the cost of car hire or taxis for the duration of our holiday. I did let caratow know on our return and he offered to send the notice to his lawyers to try and get it overturned but as I said not worth the hassle.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[big map]

one point that I think has not been discussed here is that if it is illegal to tow a car on an a-frame in a particular country and you had an accident, would you be in breach of your insurance conditions and they could refuse to pay out...?

Our insurance is aware of the modification and covers us for Europe.

 

[laird of Dunstan]

i wonder what the spanish cops will do if they catch my missus towing two of our dogs in a trailer behind her electric bike ? will we get shot at ??

 

[Charlie]

one point that I think has not been discussed here is that if it is illegal to tow a car on an a-frame in a particular country and you had an accident, would you be in breach of your insurance conditions and they could refuse to pay out...?

No.. That one I covered.. When a car is attached to an A frame it becomes a trailer. That's the view of LV but check for yourselves. I think "comfort" insurance take the same view but again check for yourselves. I say check for yourselves because in the event of a claim it is each individuals responsibility to ensure they have checked they are covered. I have and am happy

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PeteH]

Not sure what the comment means .... can you explain please as I actually gave you full details of the chap/where you get the info???

Yes I appreciate it. I am now waiting for a reply from "the man". as to where we go next.
The Thumdown was error, as I was not wearing my "specks". (maybe I should go back to specsavers!)
Pete

 

[PeteH]

No.. That one I covered.. When a car is attached to an A frame it becomes a trailer. That's the view of LV but check for yourselves. I think "comfort" insurance take the same view but again check for yourselves. I say check for yourselves because in the event of a claim it is each individuals responsibility to ensure they have checked they are covered. I have and am happy

Was the same with NFU. and the Camping Club.

Pete

 

[Gorse Hill]

No.. That one I covered.. When a car is attached to an A frame it becomes a trailer. That's the view of LV but check for yourselves. I think "comfort" insurance take the same view but again check for yourselves. I say check for yourselves because in the event of a claim it is each individuals responsibility to ensure they have checked they are covered. I have and am happy

I think sas was referring to using the A frame in Spain where it is possibly illegal depending on your interpretation of the laws in that country

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[big map]

I think sas was referring to using the A frame in Spain where it is possibly illegal depending on your interpretation of the laws in that country

But with an uk insurance company, where uk laws apply? There is a post somewhere regarding British people using a-frames in Spain and how Uk laws apply, if you are thinking of a-framing to Spain it may be worth doing a search to find it. Personally I wouldn't bother taking a car on a frame to Spain but would take the car on a trailer.

 

[davejen]

Hi, Mark, I must agree with Peter H regarding making sure the smart is definately in neutral, as the same thing happened to me a few years back. To make sure it is in neutral PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL after putting it in neutral, this "completes" the circuitry Another tip if you purchase a "mechanical" rather than an electronic system, i.e one that uses the override system with a cable to put the brakes on, make sure you LUBRICATE the cable occasionally as they can seize-up and the brakes can stick on causing other problems.
Hope this helps,
Cheers, Dave

 

[Charlie]

But with an uk insurance company, where uk laws apply? There is a post somewhere regarding British people using a-frames in Spain and how Uk laws apply, if you are thinking of a-framing to Spain it may be worth doing a search to find it. Personally I wouldn't bother taking a car on a frame to Spain but would take the car on a trailer.

Not going too much into this one cos its an extremely complicated point. There is something that says because we are members of the EU Spain must look upon what we are doing as law abiding folk and if it complies with the laws of the country we originate from then the Spanish police and authorities must allow to a certain degree... It is a wee but ambiguous but the points when read by my daughter were in her opinion very likely to help us IF we tow in Spain and in the EXTREMELY rare situations we may get pulled.

Of course if we as a country leave the EU then that would not help in any way.

It was always our plan to visit Spain in the MH at some point. But given the ambiguity of the position even though I personally feel that IF I get a pull and IF I get a fine I would get it overturned and trust me I would follow it up without question I just cant be arsed with it.. Plenty of places to go and if Spain doesn't want my/our money then sobeit.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gus-lopez]

Not going too much into this one cos its an extremely complicated point. There is something that says because we are members of the EU Spain must look upon what we are doing as law abiding folk and if it complies with the laws of the country we originate from then the Spanish police and authorities must allow to a certain degree... It is a wee but ambiguous but the points when read by my daughter were in her opinion very likely to help us IF we tow in Spain and in the EXTREMELY rare situations we may get pulled.

Of course if we as a country leave the EU then that would not help in any way.

It was always our plan to visit Spain in the MH at some point. But given the ambiguity of the position even though I personally feel that IF I get a pull and IF I get a fine I would get it overturned and trust me I would follow it up without question I just cant be arsed with it.. Plenty of places to go and if Spain doesn't want my/our money then sobeit.

Yes it would come under the 'Vienna convention' ,if it was a trailer but as far as the spaniards are concerned it isn't .It is a vehicle not a trailer .So they will not allow the convention to be used.

 

[Charlie]

Hi, Mark, I must agree with Peter H regarding making sure the smart is definately in neutral, as the same thing happened to me a few years back. To make sure it is in neutral PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL after putting it in neutral, this "completes" the circuitry Another tip if you purchase a "mechanical" rather than an electronic system, i.e one that uses the override system with a cable to put the brakes on, make sure you LUBRICATE the cable occasionally as they can seize-up and the brakes can stick on causing other problems.
Hope this helps,
Cheers, Dave

Good advice..

One other wee detail to consider is if your towed car has a draw on the battery when the ignition is in accessory position. I call it " tow mode"

The reason to be aware of this is because if you tow for a long time and perhaps leave the key in the position when the car is on a ferry for several hours then it is likely the cars battery could go flat. Our IQ like many of these wee cars has only a tiny battery so it can get low in a short period.

But first allow me to explain what I do and how I do it.

I have had a couple of keys cut for our IQ. They are just blank keys cut and have not been set up so the car can be started with them.They are purely to keep the steering lock off and nothing more.

I unlock the car Set the car in neutral set the parking brake to the off position press the brake pedal to prime the doobrey then put in a blank key to keep the lock off. I then lock the car from the outside . POINT.. On our IQ it is not possible to lock the doors using the remote pads on the key. To lock the car the key must be put in the door lock and turned. All doors and the boot then lock.

We are now in "tow mode"

Just to pre emt the question. I have asked LV if they have a problem with me leaving the key in the ignition for instance when we are on a ferry or if we park up say on a service area . The reply which I have in writing was NO they have no problem because even though the steering is unlocked the car its self is locked and the car cannot be started with the key as it is not programmed.

Reasons why a drain may be on the battery when in "tow mode"

Well we obviously have turned off the radio right ? Of course we have. But there are certain things on certain cars that may have a small but significant draw.. On the IQ there is a wee display beside the speedo that displays things like the engine temp. The radio frequency . Amount of fuel and stuff like that. When in "tow mode" there are no numbers or anything like that showing on the display. None. But this wee display remains very slightly back lit. If I had not noticed it in the dark I would never have known !

I did a test or two. Over a period of 14 hours the battery was drawn down from 12.7 volts to 11.6 volts. Doesn't sound much does it ? but at 11.7 volts the battery is down to 70%..

So I had an extra wire wired in so when the rig is on the move the wee car is in tow mode of course and the wee cars battery is getting charged as we drive along the road.

Hope this helps

 

[Charlie]

Yes it would come under the 'Vienna convention' ,if it was a trailer but as far as the spaniards are concerned it isn't .It is a vehicle not a trailer .So they will not allow the convention to be used.

I wont get into a debate over this but the 'Vienna convention' as you quite rightly put it and thank you for reminding me what its called if called into play makes the situation so they have to recognise it...

Unless I have completely missed the point the tow car when attached to a towing vehicle with a towing frame becomes in the eyes of UK law a trailer. It may be a free steering trailer but it a trailer nonetheless .

Spanish copper says Er signor Charlie you andsome deeevil.. You eees breaking deeee law weeeeeth your toad as eeeet is not a trailer under Spanish law..... Call into play the 'Vienna convention'

Did you like my spanish accent ? Bi lingual me

But worry not I aint going to Spain anyway..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Mark5204]

Hi, Mark, I must agree with Peter H regarding making sure the smart is definately in neutral, as the same thing happened to me a few years back. To make sure it is in neutral PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL after putting it in neutral, this "completes" the circuitry Another tip if you purchase a "mechanical" rather than an electronic system, i.e one that uses the override system with a cable to put the brakes on, make sure you LUBRICATE the cable occasionally as they can seize-up and the brakes can stick on causing other problems.
Hope this helps,
Cheers, Dave

Certainly does Dave thank you very much for your reply.

 

[Gorse Hill]

It is a wee but ambiguous but the points when read by my daughter were in her opinion very likely to help us IF we tow in Spain

That's what I was getting at, insurance companies don't need much persuading to have a get out clause

 

[Charlie]

That's what I was getting at, insurance companies don't need much persuading to have a get out clause

Quite right !. This why people should not only ask the questions but get the answers confirmed in writing just as I have ..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PeteH]

Good advice..

One other wee detail to consider is if your towed car has a draw on the battery when the ignition is in accessory position. I call it " tow mode"

The reason to be aware of this is because if you tow for a long time and perhaps leave the key in the position when the car is on a ferry for several hours then it is likely the cars battery could go flat. Our IQ like many of these wee cars has only a tiny battery so it can get low in a short period.

But first allow me to explain what I do and how I do it.

I have had a couple of keys cut for our IQ. They are just blank keys cut and have not been set up so the car can be started with them.They are purely to keep the steering lock off and nothing more.

I unlock the car Set the car in neutral set the parking brake to the off position press the brake pedal to prime the doobrey then put in a blank key to keep the lock off. I then lock the car from the outside . POINT.. On our IQ it is not possible to lock the doors using the remote pads on the key. To lock the car the key must be put in the door lock and turned. All doors and the boot then lock.

We are now in "tow mode"

Just to pre emt the question. I have asked LV if they have a problem with me leaving the key in the ignition for instance when we are on a ferry or if we park up say on a service area . The reply which I have in writing was NO they have no problem because even though the steering is unlocked the car its self is locked and the car cannot be started with the key as it is not programmed.

Reasons why a drain may be on the battery when in "tow mode"

Well we obviously have turned off the radio right ? Of course we have. But there are certain things on certain cars that may have a small but significant draw.. On the IQ there is a wee display beside the speedo that displays things like the engine temp. The radio frequency . Amount of fuel and stuff like that. When in "tow mode" there are no numbers or anything like that showing on the display. None. But this wee display remains very slightly back lit. If I had not noticed it in the dark I would never have known !

I did a test or two. Over a period of 14 hours the battery was drawn down from 12.7 volts to 11.6 volts. Doesn't sound much does it ? but at 11.7 volts the battery is down to 70%..

So I had an extra wire wired in so when the rig is on the move the wee car is in tow mode of course and the wee cars battery is getting charged as we drive along the road.

Hope this helps

Good advice, does not however apply to the Smart as the KEY does not sit in a steering lock it is in the centre of the car behind the Gear stick and locks the gear controls once neutral is selected and locked the key can be removed.

Pete

Pete

 

[tonyidle]

Hi, Mark, I must agree with Peter H regarding making sure the smart is definately in neutral, as the same thing happened to me a few years back. To make sure it is in neutral PRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL after putting it in neutral, this "completes" the circuitry Another tip if you purchase a "mechanical" rather than an electronic system, i.e one that uses the override system with a cable to put the brakes on, make sure you LUBRICATE the cable occasionally as they can seize-up and the brakes can stick on causing other problems.
Hope this helps,
Cheers, Dave

Just a point for Mark: no Smart (don't know about the very latest version) uses a centrifugal clutch - they're all conventional clutches operated by an electric servo. The gearbox likewise. The clutch is always held disengaged when the Ignition is on so checks for Neutral must be carried out with the Ignition switched off.

 

[tonyidle]

Good advice, does not however apply to the Smart as the KEY does not sit in a steering lock it is in the centre of the car behind the Gear stick and locks the gear controls once neutral is selected and locked the key can be removed.

Pete

Pete

You don't need the key in the accessory position to leave the steering unlocked. As long as you turn the key on, then off, after inserting it, the steering remains unlocked.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Really ?
I would not do it any more mate..

Sorry, cannot find an English translation but it is better to come straight from the mouth any way..

http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/a...ee-par-le-camping-car-il-faut-y-renoncer.html

Basically it says that in answer to a question in the French Parliament that "A" Frames are now illegal - no ifs or buts

Does this help?
The written question in the National Assembly came from the socialist deputy of the Hautes-Pyrénées, Jean Glavany. He spoke of a possible tolerance of the French legislation on the issue can tow a small car with a camper. However, the response of the Ministry of Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy is unambiguous. She recalled that the European directive 2007/46 / EC defines three international vehicle categories:
- Category M: Motor vehicles for transport of persons;
- Class N: Vehicle freight engine;
- Class O. Trailers
and confirms in France, the frame configuration in tow is not permitted by the rules of the road, outside the particular case of troubleshooting. Article R.311-1 of the Highway Code stating that the constitution of a vehicle combination is specifically defined as the coupling of a motor vehicle (category M or N) and a trailer (category O) , a particular trailer being characterized by a braking device compatible with the motor vehicle of the category for the tow.

An end to the ambiguity
Where things could arouse conflicting interpretations, the Department recognizes the implication is that the coupling devices used to tow a motor vehicle may be approved under Directive 94/20 / EC . The technical unit remains in line with Community regulations but not its installation on the towed vehicle, which must be modified to accommodate part to tow ... If these legal considerations appear abstruse for many users, affirmation, according to the Ministry , in case of accident declaring that the towed vehicle is a car (without driver) may lead the insurer to review the terms of management of the damage caused, should be more. An effect that will probably end the controversy and thereby the 'career' of the frame to tow in France.
That is how I read the bit about A frames.
You make your mind up about it.

 

[PeteH]

The whole issue goes to confirm what is to my mind self evident. And that is that the EU is an organisation so far up it`s own arras as to be not only useless, but an expense and drain on the economies of the countries involved especially the UK. It is a bureaucratic monolith which is deigned ONLY to perpetuate it`s own self serving and self-interested political and bureaucratic morons!. So Vote out!!.

OK, so they have effectively banned a piece of equipment, which has been shown to be safe, (1000`s of them are in use in the USA, as far as I can find from research there has never been a Claim directly attributed to the use of one), So why any ban?. The EU is good at "Harmonising" so why not harmonise and make the use legal in Europe?.

The short answer would be that would be far too simple for the simple mind of the average Bureaucrat to grasp!.

Not a problem though, Smart car and Small trailer for European use, Not as efficient but ???.

Over and Out!.

Pete

 

[tonyidle]

The whole issue goes to confirm what is to my mind self evident. And that is that the EU is an organisation so far up it`s own arras as to be not only useless, but an expense and drain on the economies of the countries involved especially the UK. It is a bureaucratic monolith which is deigned ONLY to perpetuate it`s own self serving and self-interested political and bureaucratic morons!. So Vote out!!.

OK, so they have effectively banned a piece of equipment, which has been shown to be safe, (1000`s of them are in use in the USA, as far as I can find from research there has never been a Claim directly attributed to the use of one), So why any ban?. The EU is good at "Harmonising" so why not harmonise and make the use legal in Europe?.

The short answer would be that would be far too simple for the simple mind of the average Bureaucrat to grasp!.

Not a problem though, Smart car and Small trailer for European use, Not as efficient but ???.

Over and Out!.

Pete

More likely that the A frame tow wasn't considered when drawing up an otherwise sensible piece of legislation and that the cost of changing it to allow for their use (for a very small number of affected people) makes it a non-starter.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}